SWAPA Comments about 717

[-9Capt]

You act like a second class citizen, you will be treated like one...

GK treated us like one and his employees will follow his example. I've seen it first hand already from SW gate agents an FA's mostly.

 

[Spud]

I think we need to tone down the pilot v. pilot talk.

SWA management is to blame with an healthy assist from our union leaders for such a clumsy response to a perceived threat.

I do know SWAPA was opposed to the "B" scale, rightly so, as it's never smart to have a cheaper group doing the same job your doing. Hopefully SWAPA can right the ship in the upcoming contract negotiations. A good faith effort for one list-one contract would go a long way smooth some of the ruffled feathers.

To all the Airtran Guys bitching about SC just remember how bad our union leader was last year. I'm assuming that the rank and file SWA pilots aren't as political and crass as that. Seems like it's hard to get a good leader these days.

I think this whole deal really sucks azz, but I refuse to let it sour my feelings for my new pilot brothers and sisters. I blame management for our problems, unfortunately I've got a lot of experience with that.

 

[texman]

-9 capt, you make me depressed.

 

[Tripower455]

I wasn't hired by VJ, I was hired by AT and spent zero dollars out of pocket for any airline required training, ever. So far the ride has been pretty good, thanks to a fast upgrade, financial discipline and good investments I had well over $1M in net worth before I turned 40. I'm glad paying for a type rating worked out well for you but it's not something I ever considered doing.

What makes you think I paid SW for my type rating?

Hearing your defense of PFT reminds me of when AT was charging $25 after the first jumpseat was taken. Management , and some pilots, would have you believe they were selling you a non-rev ticket. BS it was a fee to jumpseat, plain and simple. Buying a required type rating as a condition of employment is the same as PFT, plain and simple. Justify it as you must.

I've never, not once, ever defended PFT, in fact, I am 100% against it, since it weeds out a lot of otherwise qualified candidates, and IME, brings down the experience level at that particular airline.

FWIW, I don't and have never agreed with the SW requirement for the type. With all the other minimum requirements we have, it accomplishes nothing in the big scheme of things.

Even though I know it's a waste of time, I'll restate it.

Valujet was a PFT outfit. You had to pay a large sum of money directly to Valujet to get the job.

SW requires a type rating. Where or how you get it is irrelevant, as long as you have it.

How, by ANY stretch of the definition, is that PFT?

I couldn't have paid SW for training, even if I wanted to.

See the difference?

In 17 years here, I've been paid for every second of training, as has every single SW pilot on the list.

Can't say that for a lot of your folks, who DID PFT, and for a substandard job.

Back when critter started up, I wanted out of the commuters in the worst way, but not bad enough to PFT. The scab issue was big too, even if it weren't PFT.

 

[vixin]

This message is hidden because -9Capt is on your ignore list.

Just ingnore the miserable individual, no need to let his kind bring ya down. I to did not pay for my type to tothe job at SWA. So I guess his theory is wrong again

 

[Lear70]

This message is hidden because -9Capt is on your ignore list.

Just ingnore the miserable individual, no need to let his kind bring ya down. I to did not pay for my type to tothe job at SWA. So I guess his theory is wrong again

So you have Boeing717 on your ignore list, too?

 

[texman]

Lear, what's the latest news over on the AT side. -9 capt or some one said their might not be a full integration by 2015?????? You think SWA might whipsaw us?

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

Lear, what's the latest news over on the AT side. -9 capt or some one said their might not be a full integration by 2015?????? You think SWA might whipsaw us?

I'm sure SWAPA's gotten more information than our side, but everything we've seen points to over 30 73's flying the international on our side plus 30 something 71's still flying that hadn't been transferred to Mother D yet by January 1, 2015. Maybe the 71's will just be parked and not flown by anyone until they go to Delta, could bring on the furloughs.

 

[texman]

I'm sure SWAPA's gotten more information than our side, but everything we've seen points to over 30 73's flying the international on our side plus 30 something 71's still flying that hadn't been transferred to Mother D yet by January 1, 2015. Maybe the 71's will just be parked and not flown by anyone until they go to Delta, could bring on the furloughs.

No one will get laid off. I personally will take a pay cut to not lay anyone off the SWA and AT side, but that is just me. I have been on the street before and it sucks.

 

[vixin]

Man my computer is doing some messed up stuff when I type. To to the job. That wasnt there when I posted it.

 

[Lear70]

Lear, what's the latest news over on the AT side. -9 capt or some one said their might not be a full integration by 2015?????? You think SWA might whipsaw us?

I don't know if I'd call it whipsaw (I'd only call it that if they didn't bring over our Int'l flying AT ALL or tried to keep it separate for years, which I highly doubt they will try), but I'm fairly comfortable saying that there will still be flying at AirTran come 1/1/15, at least through the END of that year.

We know the 717's will still be here flying, the last 36 aren't scheduled to go over to Delta until the END of 2015 (36 in 2015 at the rate of 3 per month from company announcement, public info).

It also looks as if the 737's flying international ops won't be able to START transferring until the Res system is in place, which has been publicly slated for a TARGET date of late 1st quarter or early 2nd quarter 2014. It takes 45 days to convert ONE plane, so unless they bring up another conversion line (probably more like 2), there's not a feasible way to get that many 737's off-line and through conversion in only 6-9 months, not to mention ramp up THAT many new international destinations on the Southwest side that quickly and transfer the sales of those routes through the Res system, not pull so many offline that it impacts the Caribbean routes already in place, etc, etc.

Then there's bringing over all the pilots. Trying to train 40% of the pre-merger 717 pilots (assuming the deal doesn't trigger our Scope language which I'm not seeing how they're going to get around), PLUS 1/2 of the pre-merger 737 AirTran pilots that are still at AirTran flying those international 737's in just 12 months is a challenge in and of itself.

The interesting part is in the SIA documents, where SWAPA (probably not realizing it) signed off on the definition of "Operational Integration" being the AirTran pilots being on the SWAPA CBA (it's in the Agreement) and your contract's Scope language saying that the pilots have to be on the SWAPA seniority list (we already are), represented by SWAPA (which Southwest can file for when they want), on the CBA (which happens on 1/1/15), and having "Operational Integration", which has now been defined by the SIA documents as being on your CBA. I didn't even catch it until I started thinking "what can they do if they want to play hardball with SWAPA like they did with us in the event SWAPA pushes back on the 1/1/15 COI date?"

For all intents and purposes, it looks as if there will be no scope violation on 1/1/15 even if there are still AirTran operations separately from Southwest. It can be grieved, of course, but I think it's a loser grievance, since we will all be on one seniority list, on one Operating Certificate, on one CBA, and the Scope language satisfied, and by the time you get it heard, they're halfway through 2015 and not that many planes are left to be completed through transition / gone to Delta.

I could be wrong, but I don't think so...

Your Senior Labor Relations counsel is a genius.

 

[texman]

Oh boy, sigh, thanks for the reply Lear.

 

[Lear70]

Oh boy, sigh, thanks for the reply Lear.

No worries. :beer:

I don't think it's all that big of a problem. 6-12 months one way or another with this deal is small potatoes in the grand scheme of things. As long as they're trying to do it and they're not trying to indefinitely run the Int'l side separately or something in the realm of "years", and just got limited with the realities of getting all the pieces in place, there's much bigger fish to fry.

I see it as basically just what happens when they bite off such a big change to the way Southwest has operated for decades.

There really are a LOT of moving pieces. I just wish they'd throw us a bone in the interim, especially to our senior Captains who were supposed to be able to keep their seats on the plane. We're talking half a Million dollars lost income from what they were expecting when they voted for the Agreement. That hurts, no matter who you are.

I know, I know, go cry to the dog.

 

[Lear70]

Also, we *might* know more at the end of the week (MEC Chair and others headed to Dallas tomorrow) but I kind of doubt it.

The secrecy behind the details of the sublease to Delta is a little odd. Not saying we'd expect to see all of it, but enough to satisfy our questions about Scope and other issues would be normal, but NO ONE has seen the actual agreement, not DALPA, not us, no one, and SWA management isn't saying much to our inquiries about it, other than to say we can see them when they're signed, which is some time after the Delta T.A. voting is done at the end of the month.

Until then, we're pretty much in the dark for how things are going to work going forward.

Russ McCrady put out a memo saying the training plan wasn't going to change, but since there's no option to send pilots awarded SWA 717 to training ahead of pilots awarded SWA 737, that's going to have to be revisited.

I'm not expecting to hear anything major until right around Independence Day.

 

[texman]

I have a funny feeling Lear . Thx again.

 

[redflyer65]

I agree with Lear, there is no way they will have all the conversions done by 1/2015.

 

[texman]

I agree with Lear, there is no way they will have all the conversions done by 1/2015.

So you think we are all going to get a sales job from GK/SWA/SWAPA? This has to be talked about now.

 

[redflyer65]

Sales job? Maybe.

I'm not sure we can do anything about it until we cross that line in the sand. It could be polarizing moment for pilots on both sides. An actual event that we could and should pull together for. I hope I'm wrong, but as Lear stated, the timeline doesn't look good to meet those targets.

 

[texman]

When do we know if SL12 passed?

 

[texman]

Just in 60 plus % yes vote for SL12.