SWAPA Comments about 717

[redflyer65]

I believe MCO is going to stay a base and ATL will be announced in the future. How well diss you expect to do NGSP?

 

[THEPRFCT10]

Ngsp. I feel sorry for you man. Life's tough I get it. I think you'll be upgrading sooner than 2023. With my juniority my upgrade says 2027--I'm hoping it'll be sooner than that.

 

[scoreboardII]

2027? We won't even be flying jets then.

 

[Full of LUV]

Dude, if you REALLY believe that SWAPA had a hand in this, then you clearly need a piss test. Your conspiracy theory may play well with the permanently pissed-off (and, of course, Dan Roman), but everyone else knows it's BS. GK consults SWAPA only when he's contractually obligated to do so. And that doesn't include the company's business decisions. Do you have a reason to be mad? Sure. But it's not a SWA/SWAPA conspiracy to screw you like you seem to think. It's GK doing business as HE sees fit, and the chips fall where they may. You guys say SWAPA guys don't know how ALPA and Airtran work, and you are probably right. But the converse is also true; you obviously don't know diddly-dick about how SWA management runs its airline.

This thread really needs to die. All it's doing is pissing people off, even the normally sane guys, with the usual suspects on both sides (and of course, Dan Roman) spinning each other into the ceiling. Take a breath, do some yoga, tap couple of flight attendants, whatever. Work on changing something that you can change.

Bubba

Bubba,
Refer to the original post of this thread....it's SWAPA leader who is gloating about the windfall due to the 717 parking....and you wonder why Citrus pilots are bent????

 

[737tanker]

750+ capts seat stolen with the sell of the b717. was just 300+

It was the AirTran MEC that turned down what SWAPA called SL9. It was SL9 that would have given all AirTran pilots SW pay as of April of this year. Additionally AirTran would have kept all would have kept all of their Capts seats for as long as the AirTran pilots wanted it. So don't blame everything on SWA and SWAPA, your MEC had a hand in this as well. SWAPA was trying to get what was best for the current SWAPA pilots (if they didn't they would have been subject to a DFR lawsuit) and GK kept them in the dark about the 717s as AirTran. SWAPA was just better at reading SWA management than ALPA.

 

[On Your Six]

Bubba, let me remind you of a few things...

"no SW pilot will be harmed"
"we gain nothing from this acquisition"
"IF integration occurs"
Comparisons made to the TWA/AA integration.
Rejoicing about the additional CA seats made available at our expense.
Pilots rallying for management at LUV HQ after ALPA declined AIP1.


SWAPA played a hand in this screw job from the beginning, probably even before the announcement was made public. There is no other logical reason why this went as lop-sided as it did. GK wants something from SWAPA. To say otherwise is being disingenuous at best.

Ouch. The truth will set you free. I also can't believe the letter from Chase. That's rough.


Godspeed!


The OYSter

 

[redflyer65]

It was the AirTran MEC that turned down what SWAPA called SL9. It was SL9 that would have given all AirTran pilots SW pay as of April of this year. Additionally AirTran would have kept all would have kept all of their Capts seats for as long as the AirTran pilots wanted it. So don't blame everything on SWA and SWAPA, your MEC had a hand in this as well. SWAPA was trying to get what was best for the current SWAPA pilots (if they didn't they would have been subject to a DFR lawsuit) and GK kept them in the dark about the 717s as AirTran. SWAPA was just better at reading SWA management than ALPA.

Your exactly right Tanker. There were plenty of people on here warning that Southwest plays hard ball. Hard core business decisons. No one believed us. I mean NO one. The first deal is usual the best when it comes to SW, and this whole SLI proved it. The voting is done and over.

 

[Clyde Frog]

It was the AirTran MEC that turned down what SWAPA called SL9. It was SL9 that would have given all AirTran pilots SW pay as of April of this year. Additionally AirTran would have kept all would have kept all of their Capts seats for as long as the AirTran pilots wanted it. So don't blame everything on SWA and SWAPA, your MEC had a hand in this as well. SWAPA was trying to get what was best for the current SWAPA pilots (if they didn't they would have been subject to a DFR lawsuit) and GK kept them in the dark about the 717s as AirTran. SWAPA was just better at reading SWA management than ALPA.

The AirTran MEC voted down the first proposal because it was an insulting slap to the face, the AT pilot group rallied and told them as much. Proposal #2 was jammed down our throats using threats and ultimatums. Anyone who can't see that isn't paying attention.

 

[madjack]

Oh brother

 

[Clyde Frog]

Oh brother is right. The truth can be a MFer.

 

[scoreboardII]

And ignorance of the contract you voted for is no excuse.

 

[737tanker]

The AirTran MEC voted down the first proposal because it was an insulting slap to the face.

Can you explain to me what was insulting about keeping 100% of your Capt seats (forever even if there was a decrease in overall Capts), getting SW pay while still on the AirTran side, and in the event of a furlough it would have been one for one (not seniority based)?

 

[carl p]

The fact that all of these open sores will fester for the next 3 years is sad. I understand there are operational issues and business decisions at work causing the integration to move at a snails pace but having 2 airlines within one is just not good...

 

[PCL_128]

Can you explain to me what was insulting about keeping 100% of your Capt seats (forever even if there was a decrease in overall Capts),

First of all, that's not even correct. The original SIA clearly stated that in the event of an overall reduction in the number of captains, then the protections for AirTran retention slots disappeared.

But even if that wasn't the case, it was still an incredibly insulting deal. A third of the pilot group getting stapled, peak loss of seniority at around 35% with the average loss around 25%, our junior captains forced to get bounced around the system on reserve for a decade because of that crazy monthly bid that you guys do, FOs that were just weeks away from an upgrade slot at AirTran now being stuck in the right seat until they retire, and the list goes on and on. It was insulting, and it was draconian.

getting SW pay while still on the AirTran side

That should have just been a given.

and in the event of a furlough it would have been one for one (not seniority based)?

Those sorts of ridiculous conditions and restrictions were only necessary because SWAPA refused to even consider a reasonable list. Without a fair list, then the conditions and restrictions have to be extensive in order to protect the group that is losing their seniority. And in the end, the C&Rs still were pretty pathetic, anyway.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Bubba,
Refer to the original post of this thread....it's SWAPA leader who is gloating about the windfall due to the 717 parking....and you wonder why Citrus pilots are bent????

Full,

I wasn't commenting on the SWAPA President's words to describe how management's latest change affected us OR you. I agree that it came off as gloating, and I can see why it pissed Airtran guys off. Trust me, I got it. I was simply saying that -9Capt's subsequent claim of a SWA/SWAPA conspiracy, alluded to in the terms of the SLI and the latest announcement regarding the 717, was absolutely, 100% wrong. Trust me, Southwest management doesn't work this way (nor do any other airlines I'm aware of).

Bubba

 

[SWA Bubba]

Ouch. The truth will set you free. I also can't believe the letter from Chase. That's rough.


Godspeed!


The OYSter

Uh, you're replying to a comment that has nothing to do with what you're talking about. You're agreeing that Capt Chase's letter was bad while he's alleging a conspiracy.

On the other hand, at least you're not dead after all, like we all thought. Where you been?

Bubba

 

[SWA Bubba]

Thanks for reminding me of these things, not that I needed reminding. Let me respond individually.

Bubba, let me remind you of a few things...

"no SW pilot will be harmed"
This was a SWAPA tagline to placate its members who were thinking they were getting screwed. It failed miserably, and is thrown back into SWAPA's face everyday on our forum by those very junior pilots who believe that they WERE screwed. This had nothing to do with the company.

"we gain nothing from this acquisition"
Not sure where you got this, other than it is a common lament by our junior guys who gained nothing from SWA's multi-billion dollar investment in buying Airtran, and wanted the company to use those billions to buy new airplanes instead, which, after appropriate hiring to staff, would increase EVERYONE'S seniority greatly.

"IF integration occurs"
This was part of what management used to get you and us to agree to the second deal. GK really, really, really wanted a voted SLI instead of an arbitrated one, and had his team craft the two SLIs. SWAPA had nothing to do with this.

Comparisons made to the TWA/AA integration.
You're absolutely right. Also comparisons to the Morris acquisitoin. Also people just chanting "staple, staple, staple." That was what a lot of people wanted for an opening position, but obviously wasn't gonna' happen. On the other hand, Airtran had guys pushing for straight relative, with your #1 (a 17-year ValueJet guy) being put in right behind our #1 (a 37-year guy). That also obviously wasn't gonna' happen. Junior line pilots demanding the world from their negotiators during a negotiation does not a conspiracy make.

Rejoicing about the additional CA seats made available at our expense.
SWAPA's president trying to mollify pissed off junior pilots who believe they got screwed by the SLI. Yes, it should have been kept private, and came across as gloating, but what the hell do you think he SHOULD have said to the angry junior pilots demanding his head?

Pilots rallying for management at LUV HQ after ALPA declined AIP1.
This was to demonstrate union solidarity. All Unions, including yours, do that sort of crap all the time. How's that a conspiracy?


SWAPA played a hand in this screw job from the beginning, probably even before the announcement was made public. There is no other logical reason why this went as lop-sided as it did. GK wants something from SWAPA. To say otherwise is being disingenuous at best.
LIke I said, this is 100% crap. You have no freakin' earthly idea how Southwest's management deals with its unions. None whatsoever. Although you WILL find out. GK does NOT consult SWAPA on such business decisions. Management makes decisions based on money, and keeping the company in the black without laying off anyone. That's pretty much it. They make decisions all the damn time that come across as screwing over SWAPA pilots. Trust me, you're nothing special in that regard. Just another business decision.

Bubba

 

[Full of LUV]

Full,

I wasn't commenting on the SWAPA President's words to describe how management's latest change affected us OR you. I agree that it came off as gloating, and I can see why it pissed Airtran guys off. Trust me, I got it. I was simply saying that -9Capt's subsequent claim of a SWA/SWAPA conspiracy, alluded to in the terms of the SLI and the latest announcement regarding the 717, was absolutely, 100% wrong. Trust me, Southwest management doesn't work this way (nor do any other airlines I'm aware of).

Bubba

I actually agree that the collusion charge is a bit much, as you have to agree that GK yielded a big stick to scare the AAI guys into an agreement.

1. Overall, it's sad that our industry has to pit seniority of groups against each other during a merger.

2. It's gonna be bad for SWA to operate as two separate airlines for the better part of three years with different pay, that is a lot of animosity to overcome. If you learned anything from DAL/NWA integration, it was the immediate payraise of the NWA group to DAL parity (plus a small token raise for the DAL group) that helped everyone swallow hard and pull together.

3. In the end, the vaunted culture of SWA apparently isn't worth pay parity in GK's eyes, as the cost savings of running a diminishing B scale for the next three years outweigh any labor relations to be gained?

Actual question..... what happened to the rest of AAI workforce, are they waiting for full integration for SWA pay to kick in?
LUV

 

[SWA Bubba]

I actually agree that the collusion charge is a bit much, as you have to agree that GK yielded a big stick to scare the AAI guys into an agreement.

1. Overall, it's sad that our industry has to pit seniority of groups against each other during a merger.

2. It's gonna be bad for SWA to operate as two separate airlines for the better part of three years with different pay, that is a lot of animosity to overcome. If you learned anything from DAL/NWA integration, it was the immediate payraise of the NWA group to DAL parity (plus a small token raise for the DAL group) that helped everyone swallow hard and pull together.

3. In the end, the vaunted culture of SWA apparently isn't worth pay parity in GK's eyes, as the cost savings of running a diminishing B scale for the next three years outweigh any labor relations to be gained?

Actual question..... what happened to the rest of AAI workforce, are they waiting for full integration for SWA pay to kick in?
LUV

My opinion is that I agree with your first two statements, and it appears that the third statement is likewise true. GK clearly weilds a big stick. He shows it to us on occasion as well. As far as the "actual questiion," I don't know the answer for sure. I believe that they all transition to SWA pay when they transition to SWA jobs. I know that's the case with the flight attendants; the first ones are going through training now.

Bubba

 

[THEPRFCT10]

First of all, that's not even correct. The original SIA clearly stated that in the event of an overall reduction in the number of captains, then the protections for AirTran retention slots disappeared.

But even if that wasn't the case, it was still an incredibly insulting deal. A third of the pilot group getting stapled, peak loss of seniority at around 35% with the average loss around 25%, our junior captains forced to get bounced around the system on reserve for a decade because of that crazy monthly bid that you guys do, FOs that were just weeks away from an upgrade slot at AirTran now being stuck in the right seat until they retire, and the list goes on and on. It was insulting, and it was draconian.



That should have just been a given.



Those sorts of ridiculous conditions and restrictions were only necessary because SWAPA refused to even consider a reasonable list. Without a fair list, then the conditions and restrictions have to be extensive in order to protect the group that is losing their seniority. And in the end, the C&Rs still were pretty pathetic, anyway.

I truly hope you are a minority. I'll say it again, where would AT be if SWA did not aquire it? Just a thought, not meant to be condescending. Were AT pilots getting ready to strike? At least we have a job, like it or not we have to move on. I met my first AT guy in the lounge last week. Seemed like a good guy very willing to get up to speed on things.