SWA took one step closer to being a regional carrier

[airlinepilot]

Hey Gupp[iedriver

Even if you put a percentage of trips in open time it would not be anyting like what we have with monthly overlap, training conflicts, etc. ALso PBS gives you your vacation and nothing else....those of you NOT WITH SWA do not understand the current system......we have alot of latitude.......to create blank space around your vacation block. I used PBS for 2 years at another carrier...you guys can have the coolaid...but don't try and pass it on to us.
Bottom line is if you have not used our system at SWA you cannot understand the impact of PBS.......I on the other hand have used PBS and can compare it to our present system. Hands down, we have a much better system when you look at flexibility, earning power and vacations......why would be want to change a system that serves EVERYONE from the lowest bidder to the senior guys/gals.

 

[Guppiedriver]

Even if you put a percentage of trips in open time it would not be anyting like what we have with monthly overlap, training conflicts, etc. ALso PBS gives you your vacation and nothing else....those of you NOT WITH SWA do not understand the current system......we have alot of latitude.......to create blank space around your vacation block. I used PBS for 2 years at another carrier...you guys can have the coolaid...but don't try and pass it on to us.
Bottom line is if you have not used our system at SWA you cannot understand the impact of PBS.......I on the other hand have used PBS and can compare it to our present system. Hands down, we have a much better system when you look at flexibility, earning power and vacations......why would be want to change a system that serves EVERYONE from the lowest bidder to the senior guys/gals.

I never once debated the differences between PBS and your current system. I simply stated what PBS is capable of.

Once again.....YOU ARE WRONG ABOUT PBS. I turned a seven day vacation block into 24 days off in a row. How is that not blank space around vacation? PBS does not remove trip trade flexibility. It is simply a program that builds lines. With PBS I can build a line that jams all of my flying in the beginning, end or middle of the month, if I want. Getting a string of eight or nine days off in a row is easy.

If we are staffed correctly, we can do all of those things you talked about too...trip trades, drop/pick up, etc. PBS has nothing to do with post bid award flexibility. We use Maestro to do trip trades, etc.

I couldn't care less if you like PBS or want it, I'm simply giving you facts about PBS, believe them or not.

Kool-Aide drinker? Considering the source, that's funny.

 

[NuGuy]

I couldn't care less if you like PBS or want it, I'm simply giving you facts about PBS, believe them or not.

Heyas GD,

Yup. I'm don't trying to explain the system to people. I've never gotten less than 2x my vacation days with PBS, and that was one time. Mostly it's been an extra 10-15 days.

I'm hardly senior, and over the past few years I've gotten 18 day off lines with commutable trips and as much credit as I can stand EVERY MONTH. That's right, 4 on 6 off. I use the same bid every month, and it takes me about 5 minutes. I spent ZERO time sharpshooting open time...in fact, I never even look at it, because my schedule is already perfect.

We have our own version of the call-out list (and believe me, the company uses it) and we have gobs of open flying to trade with (up or down) or simply pick up. I don't think that SWA has the monopoly on flexibility in that regard.

But, whatever...we had our own set of naysayers who just didn't want to take the time to learn a new system, and a few others who worked the system benefit themselves. Fortunately for us, they were in the minority, and now life is MUCH better for everyone.

Nu

 

[ivauir]

Heyas NUguy,
who you with?

For those of you who provided information on your current PBS - how did your company and your union arrive at the current system? Were ppl pretty happy with it outof the box, or did it take further negotiation?

 

[canyonblue]

I've never gotten less than 2x my vacation days with PBS, and that was one time. Mostly it's been an extra 10-15 days.

Nu

This is what happens with PBS, however the people who DO NOT want it at SWA will still tell everyone that you can only get 7 days of vacation in a month with PBS. So if there are any 7 day guys out there explain to me how, if you wanted a vacation month with 100 TFP, and vacation paid 35 TFP (example), how 65 TFP would equal anything more than 10 days of work or possibly 8 with 2 well paying 4 days. Bid a 4 day at the beginning of the month and a 4 day at the end of the month and have 23 days off straight in January. I know the advantages of PBS, but I do agree with many that I would not trust that our Union would have the experience to properly implement it. Heck, we still cannot ELITT a trip 108 hours before it, the FA's can ELITT any trip 9 hours before, and trade into a better trip. With our Union, vacation would probably be 11 TFP and a meal voucher.

 

[NuGuy]

Heyas,

The NWA system was implemented in stages, and is, oddly enough, still considered an "experimental system" for the purposes of the LOA.

First and formost. DON'T REINVENT THE WHEEL. Tell your MEC to suck up their pride, set up a committee and send them over to NWA Computer Bidding Committee to learn at the feet of the masters. No one has more experience with PBS. The NWA pilot group has cycled through 3 software vendors and several interfaces, and they know what they are doing.

At NWA, the system started out on one aircraft at one base (say 300 pilots in MEM). As time progressed, and the kinks were worked out, additional aircraft were added. By far the most difficult group to implement were the widebody schedules, due to the nature of the trips (small trip pool made of large trips). But all of these issues were overcome.

SWA could do the same. Pick one base...a small one, and maybe FOs only, and go from there.

Nu

 

[Diesel-9]

Our (NWA) bidding system is excellent. A few folks from other carriers who I showed it to were very impressed and envious. I will meet with anyone in Dallas on Hwy 75 N. at a Kinkos and show it to you for a Grande Coffee from the Starbucks located next store.

 

[SWA/FO]

I just turn my 1 week of vaction into 24 days off for FEB '06.

We have NWAs TURB plots, which are "the best out there, hands down" to quote our training guru in Dallas, why not look into their PBS system too.

 

[canyonblue]

I just turn my 1 week of vaction into 24 days off for FEB '06.

I'm working EVERY Saturday, because I wanted the Super Bowl off and needed the 8th off also.:smash:

 

[737tanker]

.....YOU ARE WRONG ABOUT PBS. I turned a seven day vacation block into 24 days off in a row. How is that not blank space around vacation?

Ok I understand that you can get big blocks of time off around a vacation using PBS. My question is did you get your normal pay for the month, or did having the large blocks of time cost money? In other words to make the same amount as normal (after considering the 1 week vacation) did you have to fly acompressed schedule to get the block of time off or lose money. At SWA I can turn a 1 week vacation into a large block of time off (with no, or minimal, loss of pay) without flying my butt off outside of the vacation time. This is not meant as a slam, just trying to comparwe the 2 systems.

 

[canyonblue]

At SWA I can turn a 1 week vacation into a large block of time off (with no, or minimal, loss of pay) without flying my butt off outside of the vacation time.

OK, where are you based, East Coast or West Coast?

 

[Guppiedriver]

Ok I understand that you can get big blocks of time off around a vacation using PBS. My question is did you get your normal pay for the month, or did having the large blocks of time cost money? In other words to make the same amount as normal (after considering the 1 week vacation) did you have to fly acompressed schedule to get the block of time off or lose money. At SWA I can turn a 1 week vacation into a large block of time off (with no, or minimal, loss of pay) without flying my butt off outside of the vacation time. This is not meant as a slam, just trying to comparwe the 2 systems.

Normal pay for the month. I don't like less than three days off between trips and I was able to accomplish that also. The vacation was the second week of the month, so I used two different bid periods to get that stretch of days off without killing myself. You can get more time off at the expense of jamming your flying together. I don't do that, it's not worth it.

 

[Tripower455]

I just turn my 1 week of vaction into 24 days off for FEB '06.

We have NWAs TURB plots, which are "the best out there, hands down" to quote our training guru in Dallas, why not look into their PBS system too.

(golf clap).... Very nice.... I didn't do nearly as well, but will be off from the 13th to the 28th with one week. What line did you get?

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

Our (NWA) bidding system is excellent. A few folks from other carriers who I showed it to were very impressed and envious. I will meet with anyone in Dallas on Hwy 75 N. at a Kinkos and show it to you for a Grande Coffee from the Starbucks located next store.

I would like very much for someone in SWAPA to spend time looking at the NWA system and lay out the differences to us.

Chase, are you listening?

 

[canyonblue737]

This is what happens with PBS, however the people who DO NOT want it at SWA will still tell everyone that you can only get 7 days of vacation in a month with PBS. So if there are any 7 day guys out there explain to me how, if you wanted a vacation month with 100 TFP, and vacation paid 35 TFP (example), how 65 TFP would equal anything more than 10 days of work or possibly 8 with 2 well paying 4 days. Bid a 4 day at the beginning of the month and a 4 day at the end of the month and have 23 days off straight in January. I know the advantages of PBS, but I do agree with many that I would not trust that our Union would have the experience to properly implement it. Heck, we still cannot ELITT a trip 108 hours before it, the FA's can ELITT any trip 9 hours before, and trade into a better trip. With our Union, vacation would probably be 11 TFP and a meal voucher.

at my previous carrier i *could* get 10-14 days off with 1 week of vacation and PBS... BUT... the rest of the month was two 3 days back to back with a day off and then repeat and rerinse. you see the company gives you a credit for your vacation days, a number that will obviously be decided between the company and union. let's say in a typical 90 trip month they credit your vacation at 25 trips. that means in the remaining weeks you need to fly 65 trips according to the computer. now you can ask for days off around your vacation to make it bigger BUT the computer will still force you to fly the remaining 65 trips somehow... which will result in a brutal 2 weeks somewhere in the month where you fly like crazy. because our trips at SWA are so block dense (30/7 issues) compared to other companies it may even prove impossible to do and then the computer would be forced to spread out the 65 trips more and voila, you lose your 10-14 days off and only get 7-10 or something.

now CAN the company simply credit you 45 trips for a 1 week vacation, thereby only requiring the computer to fly you 45 trips in the remaining 3 weeks and allowing an easy way to get 14 days off for 1 week of vacation? SURE, but why do you think they want PBS? they want it exactly so that they DON'T pay you half a month's trips for 1 week of vacation!

again, if we get PBS you can get PBS to give you more than your core 7 days off of vacation, but at what cost to the rest of your month, and will we have SWA specific troubles because of how block time dense our trips are?

 

[matt1.1]

Who Died And Made You King!

LEAVE!!!! GO AWAY!!!! & DON"T FORGET TO CHANGE YOUR NAME!!!

FEDEX727FE sounds way better to me. I feel sorry for your new company.

....SWA refering to another SWA pilot disenchanted with the clown carrier.

SWA/FO makes the whole group look bad.

 

[matt1.1]

SWA/FO only works for a regional

I guess you could call every airline a regional.

Yea because that your only perspective REGIONAL BOY

 

[matt1.1]

Compromising Mindset

I hear you on the schedule. The side letter .............

Gary Kelly has not asked for pay cuts. Just increased "productivity". I knew lines with less time off were in the cards for us.

If we don't pony up he WILL ask for pay cuts.

BoeingJets starts bargining from a position of weakness.

 

[737tanker]

OK, where are you based, East Coast or West Coast?

East Coast - BWI

 

[Speed]

Perspective--Let's get a grip on how great it is!!!

Ok, I'm just a young tad at SWA...but trying to understand how we're not the cat's meow. In my first year with the company (MDW based) I had every major holiday off including Thanksgiving and Dec 24th through Jan 3rd off. Yes, I was home for Christmas, the entire week afterward including New Years Eve and New Years Day until I voluntarily picked something up starting on the 3rd. I tried for Voluntary VJA (time and a half) over the holidays, but was outbid by other greedy capitalists of this great country.

I just started my second year of pay, and thanks to our current ability to pick up extra trips, I bumped up my schedule to work 16 days in January to offset some Christmas bills (with ELITT I was able to move trips and get every saturday off). For these 16 days (only 14 days away from home...two layovers are in my commuter city) I'm going to be paid $9,500, which includes per deim. My roommate from Air Force Pilot training is a 9th year FO with Delta on the 767 Intl. We recently compared notes and he worked every major holiday last year and is making less on average per day than I make as a second year FO with SWA (to clarify, that was as an 8th year FO on domestic 767 routes..but he says with the new pay cut our second year daily pay will still be comprable to his 9th yr Intl). He makes more per hour, but doesn't fly as many hours per day or used as efficiently as we are. So what if we fly an extra two hours a day...if I'm gone from home I'd rather be productive. He's strongly considering putting his app in with SWA right now, but hates to give up the 9 years of senority with Delta...understandably.

I have my first month with vactation next month in February (the month so frowned on in above posts). I was originally scheduled to work 12 whole days, but with vacation overlap issue will only have 6 days on my line. Because I do LIKE to FLY (I used to pay for it you know), and I do LUV the folks I work with, I'm surely going to pick up more days which helps both the company and my family.

I really enjoy reading all the varied opinions and perspective on this forum...and don't post as often as some...but for those considering wanting to work for SWA and starting to feel a bit uneasy about some of the prior posts above, I wanted to offer you a sip of Kool Aid and tell you the water in the pool is warm...and worth wading in for a while. :beer:

A couple quick thoughts about posts above:
--30% voter turn out: It's pathetic, but tells me that the majority of the pilots are comfortable with the way the company is running operations and they're not moved to action to oppose what the company and SWAPA is proposing--a test period to collect some data...sounds pretty smart to me. You gotta like working for a company where you actually trust management.
-- PBS: I don't know a single SWA pilot that wants to give up our potential of Sweet vacation time. I do know 99% of the pilots that want to ensure the company remains profitable no matter what. Maybe that means examining PBS specifically designed for us with unique constraints that protect vacation like you read about.
-- Grass is always Greener syndrome: If you've worked for SWA (which I doubt the negative dude posting above has) and realize that you're not a good fit...you're not in the mainstream of Happy dudes willing to work a little harder and don't enjoy giving outstanding customer service...your "extra 5 minutes a day", that's cool--move on to what works for you. FDX is hiring and is an awesome company. I have several buddies there and have the utmost respect for the company and pilot group. After attending conferences and analyzing the aviation fatigue countermeasure studies, I realized that I was not a good "napper" and sleep cycle adaptive...and would probably end up in the 25% of cargo, back side carrier pilots, that never make it to age 60...they end up having to medically retire early--I would have been one of them. If you can hack the work schedule and dont' enjoy working with people, you'll be happy...hey, "the boxes don't B!tch" right? If after a few years you're disgruntled there also...well, now it's time to take a look at the man (or woman) in the mirror.

I enjoy the debate and banter on this forum...but started to sense a negative tone, which I don't think is at all mainstream of what I've experienced at SWA in my first year.

Cheers,
Speed