SWA to speed up Airtran integration.....article

[General Lee]

You think you are some great debater? I've thrashed you on here time and time again. You only 'win' in your own mind.

I'm glad you think allowing a Regional Pilot to fly your DC9 sized planes around is a good thing. Your first impression of that last contract was right, and now you try hard to spin it otherwise. You are good a spinning....NOT debating.

Your merger mania is troubling. It been long over and done. But you can hang on to it forever, and that's FANTASTIC!

Full Steam Ahead idiot.

You have never won anything. I always have a better retort that you don't think about beforehand. It makes me happy.

Allowing RJs the size of SMALL DC9s (current DC9-50s have over 120 seats, the DC9-10 had about 75 supposedly), wasn't the best idea, but one that was forced during BK mainly. The thing you fail to see is that the allotted number of RJs has gone way down, and the deal that was just made brought over 88 of your planes, that will actually cover the current 76 seat routes. You make no mention of that. And, I was in favor of the contract when I finally saw it. Just like your future negotiations, there is no real understanding until you see the offer. The only thing we hear about your future offer though is that it probably won't be a good one, and your negotiating people seem to agree, getting ready for a tough stance. Your airline started off as a LCC, and it has morphed into something different. We hope you stay strong, but realize it may be tough, and then you may have to give up something to keep those high rates, Red. What will that be?

The Merger mania is done in YOUR head Red, and many of you hope everyone will forget it. In the meantime, you still have a B-scale that will go on for years, which really does hurt this industry. That plan allows other airlines to keep seperate entities for YEARS, at different pay for the SAME PLANE. How is that good? You didn't get a JOINT contract first, with joint pay for same planes. It was divide and conquer, not "welcome aboard." Dreams were smashed, and you want people to forget. Sad but true Red.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[SWAdude]

You have never won anything. I always have a better retort that you don't think about beforehand. It makes me happy.

Allowing RJs the size of SMALL DC9s (current DC9-50s have over 120 seats, the DC9-10 had about 75 supposedly), wasn't the best idea, but one that was forced during BK mainly. The thing you fail to see is that the allotted number of RJs has gone way down, and the deal that was just made brought over 88 of your planes, that will actually cover the current 76 seat routes. You make no mention of that. And, I was in favor of the contract when I finally saw it. Just like your future negotiations, there is no real understanding until you see the offer. The only thing we hear about your future offer though is that it probably won't be a good one, and your negotiating people seem to agree, getting ready for a tough stance. Your airline started off as a LCC, and it has morphed into something different. We hope you stay strong, but realize it may be tough, and then you may have to give up something to keep those high rates, Red. What will that be?

The Merger mania is done in YOUR head Red, and many of you hope everyone will forget it. In the meantime, you still have a B-scale that will go on for years, which really does hurt this industry. That plan allows other airlines to keep seperate entities for YEARS, at different pay for the SAME PLANE. How is that good? You didn't get a JOINT contract first, with joint pay for same planes. It was divide and conquer, not "welcome aboard." Dreams were smashed, and you want people to forget. Sad but true Red.


Bye Bye---General Lee

What a waste of time in your life. You don't exist. Why would anyone even give you any consideration for your opinions. I don't care what you think because you are not who you say you are. You are littering up this site from having good, HONEST debate. Go reinvent yourself already. Get a fresh start.

 

[EngineThunder]

Paging OYS

 

[SWA Bubba]

No Bubba, many of you are so insecure and need to be the "leader" to feed those Corndog egos.

This sentence doesn't make any sense. Plus, it has absolutely nothing to do with what I said to you.

I certainly don't hate anyone,...

Personally, I doubt that any competent therapist would agree with this.

... but rather I respond to the over the top cockiness that many of you put on here each day.

Probably 90% of what you call 'cockiness' is responding to your inane and repetitive drivel. (Like my post here. See? You've sucked me into your neverending world of craziness)

And, your FI group's ability to cast aside the true results of your merger and what effects it has on this industry simply amazes me.

Really? "Effects on the industry"? And what exactly would that be? And what "true results" of a merger that has only barely started (200 out of some 1750 pilots so far) can be shown?

Can you not see the injustices? You probably can't.... Start with the B-scale and get back to me.

Sure, I'll get back to you here. How about you EVER getting back to me? You blather on and on about a B-scale, and despite me suppying you with answers, you ignore it and just repeat, ad naseaum, the same wrong crap over and over.

It is not a B-scale, General, no matter how much you want it to be. A B-scale is getting a lower payrate for the same job at the same company. Southwest and Airtran are still separate companies (albeit owned by the same parent), with different business models, and different rules. When Lear, or any other pilot flies an Airtran 737, he gets Airtran, ALPA-negotiated rates. When that same pilot transitions to the other company, and flies a Southwest 737, he gets Southwest, SWAPA-negotiated rates. That's pretty simple, isn't it?

Why doesn't the parent pay ALPA-represented pilots the same as SWAPA -represented pilots? Because it can't, that's why. It's that damn simple. Again, their business model is different and doesn't support SWAPA rates. Do you not ever read about some of these guys on the Airtran side bragging about not flying much, and stalling going over the partition, because they don't want to work so hard? Does that not tell you something about the rates each company can support?

Answer me this General, if Fornaro couldn't afford to pay Airtran pilots SWAPA rates for Airtran-type flying, why do you think that Southwest can for the same flying? Does snapping your fingers make everything work the way you want in YOUR world?

Is this ideal? Not in my mind. In my opinion, the best thing would be to get the groups and companies merged as soon as possible to enjoy the synergies. Then everyone would get the same benefits. However, there are real limitations to how fast you can do stuff in the real world, not to mention the limitations imposed by Southwest's IT department, and the unique differences between our two companies.

Bye Bye---General Lee

There you go, General--my remarks are in red. If you're gonna continue to pretend that you're a serious debater rather than the blowhard everyone else believes you to be, then actually address what I've said, instead of your normal M.O. You know, ignore it, and continue to spout uneducated and disproven crap. Your choice.

Bubba

 

[PCL_128]

What? Within a couple of thousand dollars at the very, very top end of DL equipment and you want to say that's a 'win'? That's a really weak arguement.

Nope, I'm talking same size equipment. What you always fail to understand is that working 950 block hours to get $185k compared to working 700 block hours to get the same $185k means that your total compensation package is a hell of a lot less.

Per-pilot value of a contract = total pilot payroll/total pilot block hours

 

[cole]

Nope, I'm talking same size equipment. What you always fail to understand is that working 950 block hours to get $185k compared to working 700 block hours to get the same $185k means that your total compensation package is a hell of a lot less.

Per-pilot value of a contract = total pilot payroll/total pilot block hours

Just for a reference point. I am a 6 year SWA fo, 8 months at 6 year pay, 4 month at 7 year pay. I made 181k, 775 flight hours, and I commute. That does not include per diem (6,100), 401k match (16,800), or profit sharing(?). So you don't have to fly 950 hours to make 185k.

 

[redflyer65]

Just so we are looking at Apples to Apples.

This is at guarantee pay per month..

SW 12yr FO

87TFP @ 132.84 = $11,557 per month.

DL 12yr 737-800 FO

65hr @129 = $8385 per month.

Now, let's look at the DL number going forward..

(2013)65hr @139.90 = $9093 per month

(2014)65hr @ 144.16 = $9360 per month

(2015)65hr @ 148.48 = $9651 per month

The Delta FO would have to work 80 hours EVERY month to equal the staight guarantee of the SW first officer.

So the numbers show that even in 2015, Delta's narrowbody rates at guarantee still don't add up to guarantee at SW.

Now I know most of you are going to say the Delta pilot isn't just going to get 65 hours a month. I completely agree, but neither is the SW pilot going to get just 87tpf a month. It's very simple to get 110/month here. That number is $14,612 per month.

DL Domestic per diem - $2.00
SW Domestic per diem - $2.15

Delta has a better B fund DC as Lear stated. But the SW pilot can differ even more of his own money through our 417 plan. You just have to make over 160k per year. Not a tall threshold. I'll be contributing next year.

Can we make improvements on the retirement side? Absolutely. But when you look at Apples to Apples 737 compensation, it looks like the 12yr SW FO comes out better. Albeit, not by much. That's my point.

Tell me where my numbers are wrong. This is black and white guys.

 

[Lear70]

SWA guarantee equates to approximately75 / 76 block hrs give or take. Multiply that times the Delta rates for a true "Apples to Apples" comparison.

 

[redflyer65]

Lear,

I didn't use ANY conversions. Why would I?

These are the exact numbers that each pilot would get at guarantee.

 

[SWA/FO]

Where are the tranny pay rates?

 

[Beechdriver32]

It just dawned on me. Lear and the General are right. They both have finally convinced me that my last 10 years here at WN were wasted.

I really should go to Delta so that my 'pay per takeoff' is the highest, after all, that is the only important metric. (Or whatever you choose, since pay vs time at home isn't important)

That and avoiding AMA and LBB at all costs.

SWA sucks and I really should find another job.

I hope this finally makes you happy.

BD32

 

[jonjuan]

Just for a reference point. I am a 6 year SWA fo, 8 months at 6 year pay, 4 month at 7 year pay. I made 181k, 775 flight hours, and I commute. That does not include per diem (6,100), 401k match (16,800), or profit sharing(?). So you don't have to fly 950 hours to make 185k.

Yup-6 year DAL FO made $113/hour. Flying 950 hours yields $107K or about 70% LESS than a SWA FO. Very, very little if any premium time to be had.

 

[SWA/FO]

No green slips at Delta -

 

[PCL_128]

Lear,

I didn't use ANY conversions. Why would I?

These are the exact numbers that each pilot would get at guarantee.

No pilot makes guarantee. I'm one of the laziest pilots you'll ever find, and even I don't make guarantee.

 

[General Lee]

Even I am getting tired of these back and forths! Imagine that!

Ok, I will try to get away from this thread, I think I have made my point about the AT treatment by certain SWA pilots, and I hope it gets better and the B-scale thing is somehow fixed.

Also, you can't just base things of off supposed guarantee. The Summer and Spring months have higher average line values, meaning more cash. The other months, if you are senior, you can still swap lower time trips for bigger ones when they come into open time, which they do. Also, greenslips do happen, especially in the Summer. If you live in base, you can also get them when someone sicks out at the last minute. It happens a lot at a BIG base..... And Red, very few people get min guarantee. Even reserve has a min of 72 hours...


Alright dudes, I will try to avoid this thread for the time being. I wish you.........farewell......



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[maxblast72]

I'm one of the laziest pilots you'll ever find,

Dam, I agree with you twice in one week. The world must be ending

 

[Lear70]

No pilot makes guarantee. I'm one of the laziest pilots you'll ever find, and even I don't make guarantee.

This.

Almost no one flies guarantee unless they just deliberately try (like me, and that's only because the lines don't fly guarantee, so I figure why bother). Everyone else flies an average of 75 hours of block per month, give or take, so might as well use a realistic average to determine a "Real Life" comparison, not just the pay-protected minimum that maybe 1% of the pilot population credits monthly.

If you don't use real-world examples, statistics mean nothing. Not a slam, just an observation.

And Beech, you missed the point. Entirely. I said I was just fine with the way Southwest pays for the 737. Or did you miss that deliberately?

People still trying to stir the pot...

 

[maxblast72]

Ok, I will try to get away from this thread, I think I have made my point about the AT treatment by certain SWA pilots, and I hope it gets better and the B-scale thing is somehow fixed.

Each pilot group has their 5%ers. Most of the SWA guys I have come across have been very courteous and professional.

With respect to the B-scale, we have no one but our former MEC to thank for that. We were offered SWA economics but our MEC turned it down. Our mechanics were smart enough to not to vote down their negotiated deal and are making SWA pay today. The pilot group has no leverage to acheive pay parity and are stuck on the AirTran CBA until they cross the partition.

Even with everything that has transpired, I have yet to talk to any former AirTran pilots that are not happy on the other side of the partition. Also, some of the biggest complainers about the merger and Southwest airlines are voluntarily taking the first class they can hold to go to Dallas (and thus voluntarily giving up their CA seat and home basing). I guess they like talking out of both sides of their mouth.

 

[MCDU]

No pilot makes guarantee. I'm one of the laziest pilots you'll ever find, and even I don't make guarantee.

A perfect example why you are overweight and another reason why your beloved Alpa has been a total failure as a true union. You are lazy. Too lazy to earn your job and too lazy to understand the true meaning of how you earn certain things in life. You are lazy and that is the last thing anybody would want in an employee. You fit the Alpa mold to a tee. I guess there is a reason you never had any ambition to work for SWA.

Thanks for sharing and letting everyone know how you role. LAZY

M

 

[MCDU]

Dam, I agree with you twice in one week. The world must be ending

Oh another lazy valujet pilot. My my.

M