SWA to speed up Airtran integration.....article

[madjack]

"No, we won't. I know this hurts your ego, but Delta pilots make more than SWA pilots when you figure the total compensation package."

Then put your app in and go bitch over there...

 

[madjack]

"(Delta will equal SWA in 2013 and surpass us in 2014.)"

True statement, maybe some AAI guys will apply, see how big D welcomes the critters?? Those navy blazers look good, and I am sure some will enjoy the time off (with no pay) if you get caught at Deltoid land not wearing your hat...

 

[General Lee]

"No, we won't. I know this hurts your ego, but Delta pilots make more than SWA pilots when you figure the total compensation package."

Then put your app in and go bitch over there...

And Welcome to the Family!


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[maxblast72]

And, thanks to Dalpa and the new contract, we will have 200+ extra RJs off the taxiways for good, and 88 new 717s instead.

I had the privelege of flying a standup with PCL128 last summer. Remember, he only flies about 10 hours a month. After watching him pound it on to 26R in ATL, I don't know if I would call the B717s we are subleasing to Delta "new"

And I know why you don't like the merger discussion, it brings up things that many of you want to forget.

Correct me if I am wrong General, but Delta made around a $750 million net profit in Q3 (the last available numbers). When I try and picture how a standalone AirTran would have been competing with a strong Delta had the merger not happened, I don't get a warm fuzzy feeling. I sleep better at night knowing I have a number at one of the "Big" 4 remaining airlines and that my airline is on very secure financial footing. Would I have liked SIA #1, $220/hr to fly the BRJ, and a 9 year Captain Retention slot? Sure, but there are alot of pilots in the country that would LUV to be where I am making $157/hr.

 

[freightdogfred]

Would I have liked SIA #1, $220/hr to fly the BRJ, and a 9 year Captain Retention slot? Sure, but there are alot of pilots in the country that would LUV to be where I am making $157/hr.

You're a slow learner if you think you'd ever have seen that money.

 

[maxblast72]

You're a slow learner if you think you'd ever have seen that money.

Why? Take a look at what happened with the AirTran mechanics. The AirTran mechanics came to an agreement with the SWA mechanics on a package very similar to our first deal. The AirTran mechanics voted yes while the SWA mechanics shot it down.

Did Gary Kelly punish the AirTran mechanics financially during the second round of negotitions? Nope. They came to another agreement that was ratified by both sides. The AirTran mechanics came to economic parity with their Southwest brother within a few weeks of ratification.

The AirTran pilots had an opportunity for Southwest economics but the former ATN MEC did not listen to the recommendations of the MC. At the end of the day, I would say Gary Kelly rolled the ATN MEC, got what he wanted (a negotiated deal that didn't turn Southwest airlines into USAirways), and saved about $60 million in 2012, and $100 million in both 2013 and 2014.

 

[Crash Pad]

It really was a solid piece of airline management. He did it cheaper than Delta and better than USAir. He also got a nice scope concession from SWAPA until 2015. That concession alone will pay for any merger expenses.

 

[slaquer5]

You're a slow learner if you think you'd ever have seen that money.

DO you want to make a wager,that he will ?

 

[redflyer65]

No, we won't. I know this hurts your ego, but Delta pilots make more than SWA pilots when you figure the total compensation package.

What? Within a couple of thousand dollars at the very, very top end of DL equipment and you want to say that's a 'win'? That's a really weak arguement.

Let's put it this way... a 12 year SW FO makes more than any DL FO except for maybe the 747. And even then, it's marginal. So for 95% of all aircraft types at Delta, the SW pilot does better. (As a side note, I'm thrilled that the DL/UAL pay is going up. It's helps everyone.)

14% DL contribution vs. 9.3% SW. I like the Delta retirement compensation, but again..no slam dunk for allowing so much outsourcing and codeshare.

The SW pilot also gains another 1% because he doesn't have to send double that to Herndon.

So to say that ALPA has done a great job over the years with any of this is laughable. Que the TWA lawsuit music, backed with 2000 RJs taking off simultaneously.

 

[redflyer65]

"No, we won't. I know this hurts your ego, but Delta pilots make more than SWA pilots when you figure the total compensation package."

Then put your app in and go bitch over there...

He doesn't have the degree. I'd say he's probably looking for a way to get a steady job in Herndon. Even if it's sweeping floors at night.

 

[Lear70]

What? Within a couple of thousand dollars at the very, very top end of DL equipment and you want to say that's a 'win'? That's a really weak arguement.

Let's put it this way... a 12 year SW FO makes more than any DL FO except for maybe the 747. And even then, it's marginal. So for 95% of all aircraft types at Delta, the SW pilot does better. (As a side note, I'm thrilled that the DL/UAL pay is going up. It's helps everyone.)

14% DL contribution vs. 9.3% SW. I like the Delta retirement compensation, but again..no slam dunk for allowing so much outsourcing and codeshare.

The SW pilot also gains another 1% because he doesn't have to send double that to Herndon.

So to say that ALPA has done a great job over the years with any of this is laughable. Que the TWA lawsuit music, backed with 2000 RJs taking off simultaneously.

I think you're missing that in order to get the 9.3% from Southwest, you have to contribute 10%.

At Delta that 14% is a DC fund, otherwise known as a B-fund, similar to what we had at AirTran before all this. You don't have to contribute a dime to it, Delta simply deposits 14% every paycheck into your self-directed DC account. That's what SWA should be negotiating for here as well. The 9.3% into a D.C. fund, not a 401(k) without matching contribution required, plus the profit sharing. However, the company realizes a tax savings from the 401(k) account, so it's a bit of a double whammy to change it, so I don't see that happening.

That said, Delta's TOP numbers in TOTAL compensation (757/767 and larger) are, and will continue to be, higher than SWA TOTAL compensation moving forward, especially in 2015 when their CBA makes a larger jump. Or, to put it more succinctly, SWAPA will have to negotiate about a 9% pay increase across the board to match top Delta compensation numbers after 2015, accounting for pay rates, retirement, medical, and per diem, all of that WITHOUT giving up work rules that equal pay in other areas (and I'm talking about the pay from the average line value, not the Cartel and POT people).

That includes the extra 1% to Herndon.

We knew this was coming. Again, SWA pay was only at the top because of the bankruptcy-imposed CBA's everywhere else. Once the carriers become profitable again and once Sec 6 negotiations had time to take advantage of that, we always knew Legacy carriers would eclipse SWA rates again.

HOWEVER... we shouldn't even be worried about matching LWB rates. In a non-bankruptcy contract, it's asinine to assume a mostly-domestic and short-international 737 operation would match the compensation numbers of true-international carriers running 767's/777's/747's/787's/A330's/A340's/A380's.

Not hating, I'll enjoy the eventual pay raise, but SWA pay isn't the top of the game anymore and likely won't return to that spot anytime in the near future. Best SNB pay? Absolutely. Best overall compensation package including LWB pay? Not anymore, and likely never again, but only less by a few percentage points, and if it keeps the company solvent and stays pretty close to top compensation rates of CAREER expectations elsewhere, I'm good with that.

You want 787/A380 pay? Go work for an operator that flies them. SWA has a different mission profile, different route structure, and is difficult to compare except to other SNB pay rates. Is it a great career in terms of compensation? Absolutely. Am I going to complain that I'm not the highest-paid pilot in the U.S.? No, that's retarded.

Why we're having this discussion is the question... "mine is bigger than yours" only matters to those who are insecure about it. Does it fit what you want out of life in terms of compensation? Is it good for your equipment type compared to the rest of the industry? Then don't worry about it. Jeez...

 

[Ty Webb]

You're a slow learner if you think you'd ever have seen that money.

Yep.

I was against SIA1 for two reasons- seniority and language.

And I'm still against it.

 

[General Lee]

I think you're missing that in order to get the 9.3% from Southwest, you have to contribute 10%.

At Delta that 14% is a DC fund, otherwise known as a B-fund, similar to what we had at AirTran before all this. You don't have to contribute a dime to it, Delta simply deposits 14% every paycheck into your self-directed DC account.

Delta's numbers are, and will continue to be, higher than SWA compensation moving forward, especially in 2015 when their CBA makes a larger jump. Or, to put it more succinctly, SWAPA will have to negotiate about a 9% pay increase across the board to match top Delta compensation numbers accounting for pay rates, retirement, medical, and per diem, all of that WITHOUT giving up work rules that equal pay in other areas (not including the people who game the system with Cartels and POT with nearly 60-80% monthly overrides in pay from the average line value).

That includes the extra 1% to Herndon.

We knew this was coming. Again, SWA pay was only at the top because of the bankruptcy-imposed CBA's everywhere else. Once the carriers become profitable again and once Sec 6 negotiations had time to take advantage of that, we always knew Legacy carriers would eclipse SWA rates again.

In a non-bankruptcy contract, it's asinine to assume a mostly-domestic and short-international 737 operation would match the compensation numbers of true-international carriers running 767's/777's/747's/787's/A330's/A340's/A380's.

Not hating, I'll enjoy the eventual pay raise, but SWA pay isn't the top of the game anymore and likely won't return to that spot anytime in the near future. Best SNB pay? Absolutely. Best overall compensation package including LWB pay? Not anymore, and likely never again.

You want 787/A380 pay? Go work for an operator that flies them. SWA has a different mission profile, different route structure, and is difficult to compare except to other SNB pay rates. Is it a great career in terms of compensation? Absolutely. Am I going to complain that I'm not the highest-paid pilot in the U.S.? No, that's retarded.

Why we're having this discussion is the question... "mine is bigger than yours" only matters to those who are insecure about it. Does it fit what you want out of life in terms of compensation? Is it good for your equipment type compared to the rest of the industry? Then don't worry about it. Jeez...

Lear,

It's tough to explain anything to some of these Corndogs. They have been on top of the World since the legacy BKs, and the return to health of many of these carriers makes them nervous. I hope you eventually can fly with them, and I hope you do well and make a lot of money, because you will DESERVE it to fly with this bunch. Wow. If not, there will be plenty of hiring if you want to bailout, and nobody would look down on that.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Lear70]

Wasn't done editing but seeing as I'm going to be a "Corndog" someday, I'm not all that concerned about not matching DL 777 Total compensation numbers flying a 737 back and forth to Central and South America at its furthest-reach trips.

As long as the total compensation package at the end of my career was within a few percentage points of where I could have been anywhere else, I'll be just fine. It may not be the career I wanted, but only a frakking idiot would complain about having this kind of job in this kind of economic environment and in THIS industry.

Some will bail to DL and other Legacies and they'll be just fine, too. All this wailing and gnashing of teeth over a few percentage points in pay rates is kind of silly, isn't it?

 

[redflyer65]

Lear,

Your post is well thought and accurate, and I do understand the difference between the DC vs 401k. I said in my post that I like that, it's a great plan.

And, I agree that the Delta payrates will forge ahead, but when they agree to those payrates with allowing regional pilots to fly planes as large as DC9s, then there's a problem. And it's going to affect the entire industry.

Widebody vs. Narrowbody. Your right again. Want a widebody job, I'd so go to the middle east. But as you said before, that's not for everyone and the timing might not be right. Different mission is right.

So will SW continue to be the highest pay in the US? No, but it's pretty damn close for a small airline from Texas that no one that was worth anything. And that's really what pisses the General off. Corndogs making more than him. It irritates him so much he has to pounce on anything SW.

And just for the record...

I don't really care to get in the 'Mine is Bigger than Yours' arguements, so if it came off that way...I'm sorry. I didn't mean it that way. Just trying to compare the two carriers as they are now and where they are headed. I've very happy with my compesation, and it sounds like you will be when you come over. The General is happy with his. It's all good in the end.

As a side note, I still think SW will get a widebody at some point in the future. Might be 10, 15 years away. But as a CEO, wouldn't it be a slam dunk to marry a single widebody type to the 737 narrowbody network? SW has the BEST domestic feed in the country. Put that together with 'new' international, and it would be a huge success. Just my opinion.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Lear,

It's tough to explain anything to some of these Corndogs. They have been on top of the World since the legacy BKs, and the return to health of many of these carriers makes them nervous. I hope you eventually can fly with them, and I hope you do well and make a lot of money, because you will DESERVE it to fly with this bunch. Wow. If not, there will be plenty of hiring if you want to bailout, and nobody would look down on that.


Bye Bye---General Lee

Why would other airlines "returning to health" and paying their pilots more make us nervous? Good God, General, we've been waiting for it and rooting for it. Being the only group paid at the top is what can make someone nervous. It's about freakin' time Delta and others started getting paid at our level or better; it's good for all pilots' negotiating abilities going forward when higher pay is more common, rather than being an outlier.

Does your hatred for "Corndogs" cause you to not even read the crap you write before you hit the submit button?

Bubba

 

[redflyer65]

Why would other airlines "returning to health" and paying their pilots more make us nervous? Good God, General, we've been waiting for it and rooting for it. Being the only group paid at the top is what can make someone nervous. It's about freakin' time Delta and others started getting paid at our level or better; it's good for all pilots' negotiating abilities going forward when higher pay is more common, rather than being an outlier.

Does your hatred for "Corndogs" cause you to not even read the crap you write before you hit the submit button?

Bubba

BINGO!

He can't help but hate on Southwest. It's a great thing that those payrates are coming up all around us.

 

[General Lee]

Lear,

Your post is well thought and accurate, and I do understand the difference between the DC vs 401k. I said in my post that I like that, it's a great plan.

And, I agree that the Delta payrates will forge ahead, but when they agree to those payrates with allowing regional pilots to fly planes as large as DC9s, then there's a problem. And it's going to affect the entire industry.

Widebody vs. Narrowbody. Your right again. Want a widebody job, I'd so go to the middle east. But as you said before, that's not for everyone and the timing might not be right. Different mission is right.

So will SW continue to be the highest pay in the US? No, but it's pretty damn close for a small airline from Texas that no one that was worth anything. And that's really what pisses the General off. Corndogs making more than him. It irritates him so much he has to pounce on anything SW.

And just for the record...

I don't really care to get in the 'Mine is Bigger than Yours' arguements, so if it came off that way...I'm sorry. I didn't mean it that way. Just trying to compare the two carriers as they are now and where they are headed. I've very happy with my compesation, and it sounds like you will be when you come over. The General is happy with his. It's all good in the end.

As a side note, I still think SW will get a widebody at some point in the future. Might be 10, 15 years away. But as a CEO, wouldn't it be a slam dunk to marry a single widebody type to the 737 narrowbody network? SW has the BEST domestic feed in the country. Put that together with 'new' international, and it would be a huge success. Just my opinion.

Red,

A lot of pilots make more than I do, but none are as cocky as your group on FI. Not all of your pilots are like that, but on here they are. I wanted SWA to keep the rates up, primarily because we had higher rates that certainly helped your cause after 9-11. Now your higher rates will help us. Your dealings with AT are troubling, and your attitude is equally as troubling. They are treated poorly, and there really is NO unity, which is important in a merger of groups. Continuing to keep one side paid a B type scale, flying the same type plane for less money, is REALLY bad for the industry. You keep trying to bring up the RJ issue, not seeing that while there were 70 more 76 seaters allowed, the TOTAL number were decreased SOONER and FOR GOOD, while the same deal allowed 88 of YOUR 717s to come over and fly routes that are currently flown by the Connection carriers. That means the recapture of scope has begun. But, you don't bring that up.....obviously...

Debating is not your thing, Red. And, treat the AT guys better. Go hug one, not slug one....and don't try to use tongue this time. Yuck...



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Why would other airlines "returning to health" and paying their pilots more make us nervous? Good God, General, we've been waiting for it and rooting for it. Being the only group paid at the top is what can make someone nervous. It's about freakin' time Delta and others started getting paid at our level or better; it's good for all pilots' negotiating abilities going forward when higher pay is more common, rather than being an outlier.

Does your hatred for "Corndogs" cause you to not even read the crap you write before you hit the submit button?

Bubba

No Bubba, many of you are so insecure and need to be the "leader" to feed those Corndog egos. I certainly don't hate anyone, but rather I respond to the over the top cockiness that many of you put on here each day. And, your FI group's ability to cast aside the true results of your merger and what effects it has on this industry simply amazes me. Can you not see the injustices? You probably can't.... Start with the B-scale and get back to me.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[redflyer65]

Red,

A lot of pilots make more than I do, but none are as cocky as your group on FI. Not all of your pilots are like that, but on here they are. I wanted SWA to keep the rates up, primarily because we had higher rates that certainly helped your cause after 9-11. Now your higher rates will help us. Your dealings with AT are troubling, and your attitude is equally as troubling. They are treated poorly, and there really is NO unity, which is important in a merger of groups. Continuing to keep one side paid a B type scale, flying the same type plane for less money, is REALLY bad for the industry. You keep trying to bring up the RJ issue, not seeing that while there were 70 more 76 seaters allowed, the TOTAL number were decreased SOONER and FOR GOOD, while the same deal allowed 88 of YOUR 717s to come over and fly routes that are currently flown by the Connection carriers. That means the recapture of scope has begun. But, you don't bring that up.....obviously...

Debating is not your thing, Red. And, treat the AT guys better. Go hug one, not slug one....and don't try to use tongue this time. Yuck...



Bye Bye---General Lee

You think you are some great debater? I've thrashed you on here time and time again. You only 'win' in your own mind.

I'm glad you think allowing a Regional Pilot to fly your DC9 sized planes around is a good thing. Your first impression of that last contract was right, and now you try hard to spin it otherwise. You are good a spinning....NOT debating.

Your merger mania is troubling. It been long over and done. But you can hang on to it forever, and that's FANTASTIC!

Full Steam Ahead idiot.