SWA Side Letter.

[Dan Roman]

Hey Dan, What's your override?

Oh, I found it!
Int'l override pay: $5/hr capt; $4/hr IRO; $3/hr FO

That's for the 330...so let's see
191 + 5 = yeah, that's about what the SW capt's make...

Thanks,
KBB

Your missing my point. I'm not the one putting down others by saying what we have is better. I'm the one saying we all live in glass houses and anything can happen to any of us. I make a little lower hourly pay (it's 197 now and soon to go into the low 200's)than SWA but have a much better retirement. So what. We are all doing basically the same thing. I don't begrudge anyone's airline, I do have a problem with people trying to rub what they have in other peoples faces and hypocritically putting down others.

 

[xjhawk]

Hey Dan, What's your override?

Oh, I found it!
Int'l override pay: $5/hr capt; $4/hr IRO; $3/hr FO

That's for the 330...so let's see
191 + 5 = yeah, that's about what the SW capt's make...

Thanks,
KBB

You can't compare his rates to anyone else's. He lives and works from Hawaii. I have lived there and know that at the end of the day, when you live in Hawaii it is still paradise. When I was in the Army I remembered finishing a terrible day at work and heading up to the north shore to watch a surf competition. What I mostly saw was bikinis on the beach and great weather. A far cry from coming home in Minnesota to bitter cold and snow to shovel. QOL man, QOL. Is all I can say. lol

 

[Ky.BrownBourbn]

Your missing my point. I'm not the one putting down others by saying what we have is better. I'm the one saying we all live in glass houses and anything can happen to any of us. I make a little lower hourly pay (it's 197 now and soon to go into the low 200's)than SWA but have a much better retirement. So what. We are all doing basically the same thing. I don't begrudge anyone's airline, I do have a problem with people trying to rub what they have in other peoples faces and hypocritically putting down others.

My point is, UNTIL everyone else does something about pay, We have no chance of changing...DO you throw stones through your glass house to hit others?

Thanks,
KBB

 

[Ky.BrownBourbn]

You can't compare his rates to anyone else's. He lives and works from Hawaii. I have lived there and know that at the end of the day, when you live in Hawaii it is still paradise. When I was in the Army I remembered finishing a terrible day at work and heading up to the north shore to watch a surf competition. What I mostly saw was bikinis on the beach and great weather. A far cry from coming home in Minnesota to bitter cold and snow to shovel. QOL man, QOL. Is all I can say. lol

Thanks, KNOW ALL ABOUT HAWAII, unfortunately, the cost of living is ridiculous there unless you live on a military base.
Thanks for your help, you guys still do not get my point...See above.
Hopefully DAL gets a good pay raise!

Good Luck,
KBB

 

[FR8dognit]

What everyone forgets about our [WN] situation is our work rules. Most of our guys are doing 105-115 TFP per month. Add that up...

 

[HighSpeedClimb]

You can't compare his rates to anyone else's. He lives and works from Hawaii. I have lived there and know that at the end of the day, when you live in Hawaii it is still paradise. When I was in the Army I remembered finishing a terrible day at work and heading up to the north shore to watch a surf competition. What I mostly saw was bikinis on the beach and great weather. A far cry from coming home in Minnesota to bitter cold and snow to shovel. QOL man, QOL. Is all I can say. lol

Having flown in Hawaii for 19 years, you need to make almost double what SWA makes to live as well. There is absolutely nothing cheap in Hawaii. Don't miss it!

 

[redflyer65]

And the taxes are right up with there with California, but they will pull away with Moonbeams new plan.

 

[DonVerita]

Regarding "near international" - IMO that type of language is a slippery slope and open to reinterpretation, one after another as each new Side Letter and eventual contract comes up. What started out with ATN as mostly Mexico and some Caribbean stuff defined as "near international", could have the potential to slide further south into Central America. Why would Management stop there? Next thing you know, northern South America is considered "near".

As a former ATN now SWA guy, I would hope that SWAPA sees this too and is thinking very seriously about tightening this language up and eventually eliminating Volaris entirely. IMO, if a flight departs the US mainland at any point bound for another country, it should be considered a full international flight for pay, override, rest, and per diem.

 

[waveflyer]

Don, I think we all want one uniform pay whether it's near, far, or domestic. It's a unity thing- and we certainly don't want pilots constantly chasing the next carrot like the legacies do. Those who fly to Harlingen are just as valuable as those who fly to San Jose, CR-
That seems to be the prevailing opinion and I certainly agree-

IMO- I want the same rate, like UPS, even if we purchased 787's- do the flying you want and can hold- not the flying you are financially pressured to fly.

 

[PCL_128]

Wave, I generally agree about keeping the same rate so everyone just bids the flying they like instead of chasing a rate. I've never been a fan of a system that encourages pilots to bid flying that they don't really care to do just because it pays a few dollars more an hour.

But, even UPS pays an international override. It's compensation for putting up with the hassles involved with international flying, such as customs, that aren't involved with domestic flying. I don't blame SWAPA for not achieving an international override now, since their rates are already above everyone else by a significant margin, but if that changes, then an international override would be justified.

 

[Lear70]

For me, international pay is more about how much more expensive it is to eat internationally. You can't just run down to the corner for Ruby Tuesday's or Friday's in most places, you're stuck on property eating $20 breakfasts, $30 lunches, and $40 dinners, before you even talk about alcohol.

The best property we have is Punta Cana because it's an all-inclusive at no additional cost to us. If you don't want to pay a good international override, fine, just put us up at an all-inclusive included in the room rate. Otherwise, better DOUBLE the per diem or add an international flying override, or you're flying at a loss every time you fly an international trip.

 

[waveflyer]

Should there be an override on more expensive cities domestically- there are plenty that have the same dynamic here Lear.
A small override is not a battle line for me- and that can be debatable-
But here's the deal- we start dividing the pilot group, even in small ways, and cliques will develop--And that is much more expensive in the long run than a couple dollars more to get an override. Many airlines have gone down that path and it's one of the reasons outsourcing has been tolerated- and we all remember legacy guys referring to our 73 as a "light twin" - IMO, I want us to think in much longer terms and not have anything in our contract that could remotely go there. Small seeds can grow.

 

[jonjuan]

Wave, I generally agree about keeping the same rate so everyone just bids the flying they like instead of chasing a rate. I've never been a fan of a system that encourages pilots to bid flying that they don't really care to do just because it pays a few dollars more an hour.

But, even UPS pays an international override. It's compensation for putting up with the hassles involved with international flying, such as customs, that aren't involved with domestic flying. I don't blame SWAPA for not achieving an international override now, since their rates are already above everyone else by a significant margin, but if that changes, then an international override would be justified.

So, it will be justified sometime this week? :beer:

 

[jonjuan]

For me, international pay is more about how much more expensive it is to eat internationally. You can't just run down to the corner for Ruby Tuesday's or Friday's in most places, you're stuck on property eating $20 breakfasts, $30 lunches, and $40 dinners, before you even talk about alcohol.

The best property we have is Punta Cana because it's an all-inclusive at no additional cost to us. If you don't want to pay a good international override, fine, just put us up at an all-inclusive included in the room rate. Otherwise, better DOUBLE the per diem or add an international flying override, or you're flying at a loss every time you fly an international trip.

You do make a good point about the AIs. If 1/2 of your overnights are at AIs where food is free and 1/2 at non AIs where food is double normal rates, you are essentially "breaking even.".

 

[Lear70]

You do make a good point about the AIs. If 1/2 of your overnights are at AIs where food is free and 1/2 at non AIs where food is double normal rates, you are essentially "breaking even.".

Well, I never expect to MAKE money off per diem, but then again, I don't like to eat junk food, so I eat daily somewhere decent for either lunch or dinner (fish or chicken and veggies without getting a sodium bomb).

Eating like a real person instead of a fast-food addict is expensive, but I'm not going to sacrifice my health for the almighty dollar, and I have no urge to pre-cook 3 days worth of food and carry it around in a cooler like some people.

Therefore I notice when the per diem rate doesn't cover the cost of getting decent food. And Wave, didn't mean to insist on "drawing a line in the sand" over per diem or international rates, simply pointing out that if you DON'T carve out additional money for doing it, you're going to spend more money at work on international overnights than domestic.

However, the novelty of it will probably keep people bidding them for many years to come, I'm sure. In the end, unless it's PUJ, or unless it's the dead of winter and I just want to go somewhere warm, I'd just as soon do a long overnight in SEA/SFO/LAX/AUS/SAT/BOS/xyz where it's fun and there's an easy way to get out of the hotel and go do things at more "normal" prices. But then again, I've been able to bid Int'l overnights every month for the last year and a half, so the novelty of it has come and gone.

Now if we started flying to Keflavik or Reykjavic in the summertime...