SWA Side Letter.

[Scoot 11]

With all the attention on the Delta contract, I wanted to bring up something which none of my Southwest friends have mentioned.
Is it true that SWAPA agreed with the company to fly international with no international over ride? This, on top of not getting additional income to fly the -800's?
Wave, where are ya on this one friend? I realize it's much easier to point out how bad us Delta sellouts suck, but not flying bigger equipment for more money, and selling out on international pay? Jeez, even us lowly Delta pilots get paid international ($5.20/hr captain, and $3.90/hr f/o) to fly to the carribean, heck, even Mexico.

 

[Dan Roman]

Well if that's true (not saying it is), it would be pretty sad and definitely be a swipe at undermining the profession.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. You can't point figures in this industry without be a major hypocrite. We all live in glass houses. A few SWA folks on here accused me of being a SWA hater when I make that statement, that's not the case at all. But they sure have some industry rookies on here that can't see anything beyond Southwest's little "warrior spirit" koolaid.

 

[Crash Pad]

SWA doesn't fly international.

 

[SWA Bubba]

With all the attention on the Delta contract, I wanted to bring up something which none of my Southwest friends have mentioned.
Is it true that SWAPA agreed with the company to fly international with no international over ride? This, on top of not getting additional income to fly the -800's?
Wave, where are ya on this one friend? I realize it's much easier to point out how bad us Delta sellouts suck, but not flying bigger equipment for more money, and selling out on international pay? Jeez, even us lowly Delta pilots get paid international ($5.20/hr captain, and $3.90/hr f/o) to fly to the carribean, heck, even Mexico.

Don't know if you heard all the details or not, but I'm sure Wave will be along presently to fill you in. However, I find it personally somewhat ironic that a Delta guy is bringing this up. What SWAPA got in return for not getting the $4-5 per hour override you're mentioning is a further tightening of our scope clause, already the strongest in the industry. Right now, the company can codeshare "near-international" up to 4% ASMs. With anyone they want, and to wherever they want (that's defined as "near-international). The proposed side letter says that in return for Southwest flying near-international and Hawaiii with no international override (just a increase in perdiem), that codeshare is immediately reduced to 2-1/2% ASMs with a further reduction to 2% in 2016. It also limits codeshare to only Mexico, and specifically only to the single carrier that they already have an agreement with, Volaris. That makes our scope clause absolutely the best: NO codeshare in the U.S. anywhere, NO codeshare ever with RJs, NO international codeshare other than the reduced ASMs with one specific carrier in one specific country.

Someone on the other thread asked what DALPA would give up in return for tightening their scope clause, and the general consensus is that they wouldn't (or at least haven't up to this point). Well, here's an example of a union actually foregoing money up front for a strategic, future vision: protection of our jobs. ALL of our jobs. Don't know whether it'll pass or not (some guys want the money, and others are pissed at the union for unrelated recent buffoonery), but there you have it.

On the issue of not getting more money for a "bigger" plane, that was also a strategic decision. We've agreed to the same pay for a 737-300 and -700 (137/143 seats) and for the -800 (175 seats) for several reasons. Primarily, of course, is to codify the precedent of the same pay for ALL SWAPA pilots. That ensures that 717 pilots don't get less pay (after the partitions fall in Jan 2015, of course), or for that matter, our -500s with only 122 seats. As importantly, if the company decides to buy 100 seaters, they can't pay those pilots less. Again, the union is trying to protect ALL the pilots, including the most junior, rather than screw them for the benefit of the senior guys. And it's not like the difference between a DC-9 and a 747. You're talking a difference of 53 seats from smallest to largest.

Now Wave or others are probably gonna' come on here and give you crap about DALPA not knowing anything about that (protecting juniors), but I'm more charitable and I'm assuming you just didn't know the details. So there you go, Scoot. SWAPA's proposing giving up a few bucks to further tighten scope and protect the junior guys on the list. Hopefully, now you can see this as a good thing for the industry.

Bubba

 

[SWA Bubba]

SWA doesn't fly international.

That's correct as of today. However, we have to have an amendment to our CBA before the company CAN fly internationally, and this is the agreement SWAPA worked out with the company, so they can schedule international flights in the (hopefully) near future. This just covers Hawaii and "near" international, which I believe extendss just down through Central America.

Bubba

 

[UALX727]

Good post, SWA Bubba. I didn't know a lot of those details.

 

[shootr]

In any case, there's NO way this side letter will pass for multiple reasons. It'll go down 25%-75% (with about 50% participating).

 

[Daddy]

Not sure about passage but the SWA pilots have zero leverage due to poor industry parity. If Delta had industry-leading wages, that would help prevent SWA pilots from "lowering the bar" for all of us. Alas, that is not the case. A CAL/UAL contract would be nice. An AMR/LCC deal would help as well. Not sure why SWAPA is dying to settle this one so soon and for so little, but as shootr says....it will probably fail.


...unless it doesn't of course.

 

[Scoot 11]

Don't know if you heard all the details or not, but I'm sure Wave will be along presently to fill you in. However, I find it personally somewhat ironic that a Delta guy is bringing this up. What SWAPA got in return for not getting the $4-5 per hour override you're mentioning is a further tightening of our scope clause, already the strongest in the industry. Right now, the company can codeshare "near-international" up to 4% ASMs. With anyone they want, and to wherever they want (that's defined as "near-international). The proposed side letter says that in return for Southwest flying near-international and Hawaiii with no international override (just a increase in perdiem), that codeshare is immediately reduced to 2-1/2% ASMs with a further reduction to 2% in 2016. It also limits codeshare to only Mexico, and specifically only to the single carrier that they already have an agreement with, Volaris. That makes our scope clause absolutely the best: NO codeshare in the U.S. anywhere, NO codeshare ever with RJs, NO international codeshare other than the reduced ASMs with one specific carrier in one specific country.

Someone on the other thread asked what DALPA would give up in return for tightening their scope clause, and the general consensus is that they wouldn't (or at least haven't up to this point). Well, here's an example of a union actually foregoing money up front for a strategic, future vision: protection of our jobs. ALL of our jobs. Don't know whether it'll pass or not (some guys want the money, and others are pissed at the union for unrelated recent buffoonery), but there you have it.

On the issue of not getting more money for a "bigger" plane, that was also a strategic decision. We've agreed to the same pay for a 737-300 and -700 (137/143 seats) and for the -800 (175 seats) for several reasons. Primarily, of course, is to codify the precedent of the same pay for ALL SWAPA pilots. That ensures that 717 pilots don't get less pay (after the partitions fall in Jan 2015, of course), or for that matter, our -500s with only 122 seats. As importantly, if the company decides to buy 100 seaters, they can't pay those pilots less. Again, the union is trying to protect ALL the pilots, including the most junior, rather than screw them for the benefit of the senior guys. And it's not like the difference between a DC-9 and a 747. You're talking a difference of 53 seats from smallest to largest.

Now Wave or others are probably gonna' come on here and give you crap about DALPA not knowing anything about that (protecting juniors), but I'm more charitable and I'm assuming you just didn't know the details. So there you go, Scoot. SWAPA's proposing giving up a few bucks to further tighten scope and protect the junior guys on the list. Hopefully, now you can see this as a good thing for the industry.

Bubba

Bubba:
Excellent non flammatory response. I can't wait to hear Wave spin this. I realize that he calls us sellouts for scope for years, which is why in return I call him a sellout in pay, for years.

Scoot

 

[b747dogg]

Being a SWA guy, I prefer one higher pay scale for all flying and equipment size. We are not selling out if that's what we want!

 

[waveflyer]

No spin-
Bubba, as usual spoke very well about the subject

 

[redflyer65]

Bubba's got it right. Near international overide? Not that big of a deal compared to the tight scope we have. That would be different if it were long haul international to Europe and Asia, but it's not in the cards right now.

 

[Huskers1]

Bubba said SWA's scope states, "No RJ's ever". Out of curiosity, what do you guys consider RJ's? Is a EMB 190/195 considered an RJ? If I remember correctly, Embraer does not categorize it as such. Is it 75 seats and below? 50 seats? Not trying to make an argument where there isn't one. Just curious of your language.
Thanks

 

[PCL_128]

Top Delta 737 rate: $182
International override: $5
Total Delta 737 Int'l: $187/hr

Top SWA 737 rate: $216
International override: $0
Total SWA 737 Int'l: $216/hr

'Nuff said. Expecting SWAPA to achieve an international override on a pay rate that is already 15.5% higher than the Delta international rate (including override) just isn't realistic.

 

[Ky.BrownBourbn]

Hey Dan, What's your override?

Oh, I found it!
Int'l override pay: $5/hr capt; $4/hr IRO; $3/hr FO

That's for the 330...so let's see
191 + 5 = yeah, that's about what the SW capt's make...

Thanks,
KBB

 

[Dan Roman]

Hey Dan, What's your override?

Oh, I found it!
Int'l override pay: $5/hr capt; $4/hr IRO; $3/hr FO

That's for the 330...so let's see
191 + 5 = yeah, that's about what the SW capt's make...

Thanks,
KBB

Your missing my point. I'm not the one putting down others by saying what we have is better. I'm the one saying we all live in glass houses and anything can happen to any of us. I make a little lower hourly pay (it's 197 now and soon to go into the low 200's)than SWA but have a much better retirement. So what. We are all doing basically the same thing. I don't begrudge anyone's airline, I do have a problem with people trying to rub what they have in other peoples faces and hypocritically putting down others.

 

[xjhawk]

Hey Dan, What's your override?

Oh, I found it!
Int'l override pay: $5/hr capt; $4/hr IRO; $3/hr FO

That's for the 330...so let's see
191 + 5 = yeah, that's about what the SW capt's make...

Thanks,
KBB

You can't compare his rates to anyone else's. He lives and works from Hawaii. I have lived there and know that at the end of the day, when you live in Hawaii it is still paradise. When I was in the Army I remembered finishing a terrible day at work and heading up to the north shore to watch a surf competition. What I mostly saw was bikinis on the beach and great weather. A far cry from coming home in Minnesota to bitter cold and snow to shovel. QOL man, QOL. Is all I can say. lol

 

[Ky.BrownBourbn]

Your missing my point. I'm not the one putting down others by saying what we have is better. I'm the one saying we all live in glass houses and anything can happen to any of us. I make a little lower hourly pay (it's 197 now and soon to go into the low 200's)than SWA but have a much better retirement. So what. We are all doing basically the same thing. I don't begrudge anyone's airline, I do have a problem with people trying to rub what they have in other peoples faces and hypocritically putting down others.

My point is, UNTIL everyone else does something about pay, We have no chance of changing...DO you throw stones through your glass house to hit others?

Thanks,
KBB

 

[Ky.BrownBourbn]

You can't compare his rates to anyone else's. He lives and works from Hawaii. I have lived there and know that at the end of the day, when you live in Hawaii it is still paradise. When I was in the Army I remembered finishing a terrible day at work and heading up to the north shore to watch a surf competition. What I mostly saw was bikinis on the beach and great weather. A far cry from coming home in Minnesota to bitter cold and snow to shovel. QOL man, QOL. Is all I can say. lol

Thanks, KNOW ALL ABOUT HAWAII, unfortunately, the cost of living is ridiculous there unless you live on a military base.
Thanks for your help, you guys still do not get my point...See above.
Hopefully DAL gets a good pay raise!

Good Luck,
KBB

 

[FR8dognit]

What everyone forgets about our [WN] situation is our work rules. Most of our guys are doing 105-115 TFP per month. Add that up...