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SWA Side Letter.

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Scoot 11

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 12, 2011
Posts
567
With all the attention on the Delta contract, I wanted to bring up something which none of my Southwest friends have mentioned.
Is it true that SWAPA agreed with the company to fly international with no international over ride? This, on top of not getting additional income to fly the -800's?
Wave, where are ya on this one friend? I realize it's much easier to point out how bad us Delta sellouts suck, but not flying bigger equipment for more money, and selling out on international pay? Jeez, even us lowly Delta pilots get paid international ($5.20/hr captain, and $3.90/hr f/o) to fly to the carribean, heck, even Mexico.
 
Well if that's true (not saying it is), it would be pretty sad and definitely be a swipe at undermining the profession.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. You can't point figures in this industry without be a major hypocrite. We all live in glass houses. A few SWA folks on here accused me of being a SWA hater when I make that statement, that's not the case at all. But they sure have some industry rookies on here that can't see anything beyond Southwest's little "warrior spirit" koolaid.
 
With all the attention on the Delta contract, I wanted to bring up something which none of my Southwest friends have mentioned.
Is it true that SWAPA agreed with the company to fly international with no international over ride? This, on top of not getting additional income to fly the -800's?
Wave, where are ya on this one friend? I realize it's much easier to point out how bad us Delta sellouts suck, but not flying bigger equipment for more money, and selling out on international pay? Jeez, even us lowly Delta pilots get paid international ($5.20/hr captain, and $3.90/hr f/o) to fly to the carribean, heck, even Mexico.

Don't know if you heard all the details or not, but I'm sure Wave will be along presently to fill you in. However, I find it personally somewhat ironic that a Delta guy is bringing this up. What SWAPA got in return for not getting the $4-5 per hour override you're mentioning is a further tightening of our scope clause, already the strongest in the industry. Right now, the company can codeshare "near-international" up to 4% ASMs. With anyone they want, and to wherever they want (that's defined as "near-international). The proposed side letter says that in return for Southwest flying near-international and Hawaiii with no international override (just a increase in perdiem), that codeshare is immediately reduced to 2-1/2% ASMs with a further reduction to 2% in 2016. It also limits codeshare to only Mexico, and specifically only to the single carrier that they already have an agreement with, Volaris. That makes our scope clause absolutely the best: NO codeshare in the U.S. anywhere, NO codeshare ever with RJs, NO international codeshare other than the reduced ASMs with one specific carrier in one specific country.

Someone on the other thread asked what DALPA would give up in return for tightening their scope clause, and the general consensus is that they wouldn't (or at least haven't up to this point). Well, here's an example of a union actually foregoing money up front for a strategic, future vision: protection of our jobs. ALL of our jobs. Don't know whether it'll pass or not (some guys want the money, and others are pissed at the union for unrelated recent buffoonery), but there you have it.

On the issue of not getting more money for a "bigger" plane, that was also a strategic decision. We've agreed to the same pay for a 737-300 and -700 (137/143 seats) and for the -800 (175 seats) for several reasons. Primarily, of course, is to codify the precedent of the same pay for ALL SWAPA pilots. That ensures that 717 pilots don't get less pay (after the partitions fall in Jan 2015, of course), or for that matter, our -500s with only 122 seats. As importantly, if the company decides to buy 100 seaters, they can't pay those pilots less. Again, the union is trying to protect ALL the pilots, including the most junior, rather than screw them for the benefit of the senior guys. And it's not like the difference between a DC-9 and a 747. You're talking a difference of 53 seats from smallest to largest.

Now Wave or others are probably gonna' come on here and give you crap about DALPA not knowing anything about that (protecting juniors), but I'm more charitable and I'm assuming you just didn't know the details. So there you go, Scoot. SWAPA's proposing giving up a few bucks to further tighten scope and protect the junior guys on the list. Hopefully, now you can see this as a good thing for the industry.

Bubba
 
SWA doesn't fly international.

That's correct as of today. However, we have to have an amendment to our CBA before the company CAN fly internationally, and this is the agreement SWAPA worked out with the company, so they can schedule international flights in the (hopefully) near future. This just covers Hawaii and "near" international, which I believe extendss just down through Central America.

Bubba
 
In any case, there's NO way this side letter will pass for multiple reasons. It'll go down 25%-75% (with about 50% participating).
 
Not sure about passage but the SWA pilots have zero leverage due to poor industry parity. If Delta had industry-leading wages, that would help prevent SWA pilots from "lowering the bar" for all of us. Alas, that is not the case. A CAL/UAL contract would be nice. An AMR/LCC deal would help as well. Not sure why SWAPA is dying to settle this one so soon and for so little, but as shootr says....it will probably fail.


...unless it doesn't of course.
 
Don't know if you heard all the details or not, but I'm sure Wave will be along presently to fill you in. However, I find it personally somewhat ironic that a Delta guy is bringing this up. What SWAPA got in return for not getting the $4-5 per hour override you're mentioning is a further tightening of our scope clause, already the strongest in the industry. Right now, the company can codeshare "near-international" up to 4% ASMs. With anyone they want, and to wherever they want (that's defined as "near-international). The proposed side letter says that in return for Southwest flying near-international and Hawaiii with no international override (just a increase in perdiem), that codeshare is immediately reduced to 2-1/2% ASMs with a further reduction to 2% in 2016. It also limits codeshare to only Mexico, and specifically only to the single carrier that they already have an agreement with, Volaris. That makes our scope clause absolutely the best: NO codeshare in the U.S. anywhere, NO codeshare ever with RJs, NO international codeshare other than the reduced ASMs with one specific carrier in one specific country.

Someone on the other thread asked what DALPA would give up in return for tightening their scope clause, and the general consensus is that they wouldn't (or at least haven't up to this point). Well, here's an example of a union actually foregoing money up front for a strategic, future vision: protection of our jobs. ALL of our jobs. Don't know whether it'll pass or not (some guys want the money, and others are pissed at the union for unrelated recent buffoonery), but there you have it.

On the issue of not getting more money for a "bigger" plane, that was also a strategic decision. We've agreed to the same pay for a 737-300 and -700 (137/143 seats) and for the -800 (175 seats) for several reasons. Primarily, of course, is to codify the precedent of the same pay for ALL SWAPA pilots. That ensures that 717 pilots don't get less pay (after the partitions fall in Jan 2015, of course), or for that matter, our -500s with only 122 seats. As importantly, if the company decides to buy 100 seaters, they can't pay those pilots less. Again, the union is trying to protect ALL the pilots, including the most junior, rather than screw them for the benefit of the senior guys. And it's not like the difference between a DC-9 and a 747. You're talking a difference of 53 seats from smallest to largest.

Now Wave or others are probably gonna' come on here and give you crap about DALPA not knowing anything about that (protecting juniors), but I'm more charitable and I'm assuming you just didn't know the details. So there you go, Scoot. SWAPA's proposing giving up a few bucks to further tighten scope and protect the junior guys on the list. Hopefully, now you can see this as a good thing for the industry.

Bubba

Bubba:
Excellent non flammatory response. I can't wait to hear Wave spin this. I realize that he calls us sellouts for scope for years, which is why in return I call him a sellout in pay, for years.

Scoot
 
Being a SWA guy, I prefer one higher pay scale for all flying and equipment size. We are not selling out if that's what we want!
 
No spin-
Bubba, as usual spoke very well about the subject
 
Bubba's got it right. Near international overide? Not that big of a deal compared to the tight scope we have. That would be different if it were long haul international to Europe and Asia, but it's not in the cards right now.
 
Bubba said SWA's scope states, "No RJ's ever". Out of curiosity, what do you guys consider RJ's? Is a EMB 190/195 considered an RJ? If I remember correctly, Embraer does not categorize it as such. Is it 75 seats and below? 50 seats? Not trying to make an argument where there isn't one. Just curious of your language.
Thanks
 
Top Delta 737 rate: $182
International override: $5
Total Delta 737 Int'l: $187/hr

Top SWA 737 rate: $216
International override: $0
Total SWA 737 Int'l: $216/hr

'Nuff said. Expecting SWAPA to achieve an international override on a pay rate that is already 15.5% higher than the Delta international rate (including override) just isn't realistic.
 
Hey Dan, What's your override?

pay_hawaiian2011.png


Oh, I found it!
Int'l override pay: $5/hr capt; $4/hr IRO; $3/hr FO

That's for the 330...so let's see
191 + 5 = yeah, that's about what the SW capt's make...

Thanks,
KBB
 
Last edited:
Hey Dan, What's your override?

pay_hawaiian2011.png


Oh, I found it!
Int'l override pay: $5/hr capt; $4/hr IRO; $3/hr FO

That's for the 330...so let's see
191 + 5 = yeah, that's about what the SW capt's make...

Thanks,
KBB

Your missing my point. I'm not the one putting down others by saying what we have is better. I'm the one saying we all live in glass houses and anything can happen to any of us. I make a little lower hourly pay (it's 197 now and soon to go into the low 200's)than SWA but have a much better retirement. So what. We are all doing basically the same thing. I don't begrudge anyone's airline, I do have a problem with people trying to rub what they have in other peoples faces and hypocritically putting down others.
 
Hey Dan, What's your override?

pay_hawaiian2011.png


Oh, I found it!
Int'l override pay: $5/hr capt; $4/hr IRO; $3/hr FO

That's for the 330...so let's see
191 + 5 = yeah, that's about what the SW capt's make...

Thanks,
KBB

You can't compare his rates to anyone else's. He lives and works from Hawaii. I have lived there and know that at the end of the day, when you live in Hawaii it is still paradise. When I was in the Army I remembered finishing a terrible day at work and heading up to the north shore to watch a surf competition. What I mostly saw was bikinis on the beach and great weather. A far cry from coming home in Minnesota to bitter cold and snow to shovel. QOL man, QOL. Is all I can say. lol
 
Your missing my point. I'm not the one putting down others by saying what we have is better. I'm the one saying we all live in glass houses and anything can happen to any of us. I make a little lower hourly pay (it's 197 now and soon to go into the low 200's)than SWA but have a much better retirement. So what. We are all doing basically the same thing. I don't begrudge anyone's airline, I do have a problem with people trying to rub what they have in other peoples faces and hypocritically putting down others.

My point is, UNTIL everyone else does something about pay, We have no chance of changing...DO you throw stones through your glass house to hit others?

Thanks,
KBB
 
You can't compare his rates to anyone else's. He lives and works from Hawaii. I have lived there and know that at the end of the day, when you live in Hawaii it is still paradise. When I was in the Army I remembered finishing a terrible day at work and heading up to the north shore to watch a surf competition. What I mostly saw was bikinis on the beach and great weather. A far cry from coming home in Minnesota to bitter cold and snow to shovel. QOL man, QOL. Is all I can say. lol

Thanks, KNOW ALL ABOUT HAWAII, unfortunately, the cost of living is ridiculous there unless you live on a military base.
Thanks for your help, you guys still do not get my point...See above.
Hopefully DAL gets a good pay raise!

Good Luck,
KBB
 
What everyone forgets about our [WN] situation is our work rules. Most of our guys are doing 105-115 TFP per month. Add that up...
 
You can't compare his rates to anyone else's. He lives and works from Hawaii. I have lived there and know that at the end of the day, when you live in Hawaii it is still paradise. When I was in the Army I remembered finishing a terrible day at work and heading up to the north shore to watch a surf competition. What I mostly saw was bikinis on the beach and great weather. A far cry from coming home in Minnesota to bitter cold and snow to shovel. QOL man, QOL. Is all I can say. lol

Having flown in Hawaii for 19 years, you need to make almost double what SWA makes to live as well. There is absolutely nothing cheap in Hawaii. Don't miss it!
 
Regarding "near international" - IMO that type of language is a slippery slope and open to reinterpretation, one after another as each new Side Letter and eventual contract comes up. What started out with ATN as mostly Mexico and some Caribbean stuff defined as "near international", could have the potential to slide further south into Central America. Why would Management stop there? Next thing you know, northern South America is considered "near".

As a former ATN now SWA guy, I would hope that SWAPA sees this too and is thinking very seriously about tightening this language up and eventually eliminating Volaris entirely. IMO, if a flight departs the US mainland at any point bound for another country, it should be considered a full international flight for pay, override, rest, and per diem.
 
Don, I think we all want one uniform pay whether it's near, far, or domestic. It's a unity thing- and we certainly don't want pilots constantly chasing the next carrot like the legacies do. Those who fly to Harlingen are just as valuable as those who fly to San Jose, CR-
That seems to be the prevailing opinion and I certainly agree-

IMO- I want the same rate, like UPS, even if we purchased 787's- do the flying you want and can hold- not the flying you are financially pressured to fly.
 
Wave, I generally agree about keeping the same rate so everyone just bids the flying they like instead of chasing a rate. I've never been a fan of a system that encourages pilots to bid flying that they don't really care to do just because it pays a few dollars more an hour.

But, even UPS pays an international override. It's compensation for putting up with the hassles involved with international flying, such as customs, that aren't involved with domestic flying. I don't blame SWAPA for not achieving an international override now, since their rates are already above everyone else by a significant margin, but if that changes, then an international override would be justified.
 
For me, international pay is more about how much more expensive it is to eat internationally. You can't just run down to the corner for Ruby Tuesday's or Friday's in most places, you're stuck on property eating $20 breakfasts, $30 lunches, and $40 dinners, before you even talk about alcohol.

The best property we have is Punta Cana because it's an all-inclusive at no additional cost to us. If you don't want to pay a good international override, fine, just put us up at an all-inclusive included in the room rate. Otherwise, better DOUBLE the per diem or add an international flying override, or you're flying at a loss every time you fly an international trip.
 
Should there be an override on more expensive cities domestically- there are plenty that have the same dynamic here Lear.
A small override is not a battle line for me- and that can be debatable-
But here's the deal- we start dividing the pilot group, even in small ways, and cliques will develop--And that is much more expensive in the long run than a couple dollars more to get an override. Many airlines have gone down that path and it's one of the reasons outsourcing has been tolerated- and we all remember legacy guys referring to our 73 as a "light twin" - IMO, I want us to think in much longer terms and not have anything in our contract that could remotely go there. Small seeds can grow.
 
Wave, I generally agree about keeping the same rate so everyone just bids the flying they like instead of chasing a rate. I've never been a fan of a system that encourages pilots to bid flying that they don't really care to do just because it pays a few dollars more an hour.

But, even UPS pays an international override. It's compensation for putting up with the hassles involved with international flying, such as customs, that aren't involved with domestic flying. I don't blame SWAPA for not achieving an international override now, since their rates are already above everyone else by a significant margin, but if that changes, then an international override would be justified.

So, it will be justified sometime this week? :beer:
 
For me, international pay is more about how much more expensive it is to eat internationally. You can't just run down to the corner for Ruby Tuesday's or Friday's in most places, you're stuck on property eating $20 breakfasts, $30 lunches, and $40 dinners, before you even talk about alcohol.

The best property we have is Punta Cana because it's an all-inclusive at no additional cost to us. If you don't want to pay a good international override, fine, just put us up at an all-inclusive included in the room rate. Otherwise, better DOUBLE the per diem or add an international flying override, or you're flying at a loss every time you fly an international trip.

You do make a good point about the AIs. If 1/2 of your overnights are at AIs where food is free and 1/2 at non AIs where food is double normal rates, you are essentially "breaking even.".
 
You do make a good point about the AIs. If 1/2 of your overnights are at AIs where food is free and 1/2 at non AIs where food is double normal rates, you are essentially "breaking even.".
Well, I never expect to MAKE money off per diem, but then again, I don't like to eat junk food, so I eat daily somewhere decent for either lunch or dinner (fish or chicken and veggies without getting a sodium bomb).

Eating like a real person instead of a fast-food addict is expensive, but I'm not going to sacrifice my health for the almighty dollar, and I have no urge to pre-cook 3 days worth of food and carry it around in a cooler like some people.

Therefore I notice when the per diem rate doesn't cover the cost of getting decent food. And Wave, didn't mean to insist on "drawing a line in the sand" over per diem or international rates, simply pointing out that if you DON'T carve out additional money for doing it, you're going to spend more money at work on international overnights than domestic.

However, the novelty of it will probably keep people bidding them for many years to come, I'm sure. In the end, unless it's PUJ, or unless it's the dead of winter and I just want to go somewhere warm, I'd just as soon do a long overnight in SEA/SFO/LAX/AUS/SAT/BOS/xyz where it's fun and there's an easy way to get out of the hotel and go do things at more "normal" prices. But then again, I've been able to bid Int'l overnights every month for the last year and a half, so the novelty of it has come and gone.

Now if we started flying to Keflavik or Reykjavic in the summertime... :D
 

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