SWA Side Letter.

[HighSpeedClimb]

You can't compare his rates to anyone else's. He lives and works from Hawaii. I have lived there and know that at the end of the day, when you live in Hawaii it is still paradise. When I was in the Army I remembered finishing a terrible day at work and heading up to the north shore to watch a surf competition. What I mostly saw was bikinis on the beach and great weather. A far cry from coming home in Minnesota to bitter cold and snow to shovel. QOL man, QOL. Is all I can say. lol

Having flown in Hawaii for 19 years, you need to make almost double what SWA makes to live as well. There is absolutely nothing cheap in Hawaii. Don't miss it!

 

[redflyer65]

And the taxes are right up with there with California, but they will pull away with Moonbeams new plan.

 

[DonVerita]

Regarding "near international" - IMO that type of language is a slippery slope and open to reinterpretation, one after another as each new Side Letter and eventual contract comes up. What started out with ATN as mostly Mexico and some Caribbean stuff defined as "near international", could have the potential to slide further south into Central America. Why would Management stop there? Next thing you know, northern South America is considered "near".

As a former ATN now SWA guy, I would hope that SWAPA sees this too and is thinking very seriously about tightening this language up and eventually eliminating Volaris entirely. IMO, if a flight departs the US mainland at any point bound for another country, it should be considered a full international flight for pay, override, rest, and per diem.

 

[waveflyer]

Don, I think we all want one uniform pay whether it's near, far, or domestic. It's a unity thing- and we certainly don't want pilots constantly chasing the next carrot like the legacies do. Those who fly to Harlingen are just as valuable as those who fly to San Jose, CR-
That seems to be the prevailing opinion and I certainly agree-

IMO- I want the same rate, like UPS, even if we purchased 787's- do the flying you want and can hold- not the flying you are financially pressured to fly.

 

[PCL_128]

Wave, I generally agree about keeping the same rate so everyone just bids the flying they like instead of chasing a rate. I've never been a fan of a system that encourages pilots to bid flying that they don't really care to do just because it pays a few dollars more an hour.

But, even UPS pays an international override. It's compensation for putting up with the hassles involved with international flying, such as customs, that aren't involved with domestic flying. I don't blame SWAPA for not achieving an international override now, since their rates are already above everyone else by a significant margin, but if that changes, then an international override would be justified.

 

[Lear70]

For me, international pay is more about how much more expensive it is to eat internationally. You can't just run down to the corner for Ruby Tuesday's or Friday's in most places, you're stuck on property eating $20 breakfasts, $30 lunches, and $40 dinners, before you even talk about alcohol.

The best property we have is Punta Cana because it's an all-inclusive at no additional cost to us. If you don't want to pay a good international override, fine, just put us up at an all-inclusive included in the room rate. Otherwise, better DOUBLE the per diem or add an international flying override, or you're flying at a loss every time you fly an international trip.

 

[waveflyer]

Should there be an override on more expensive cities domestically- there are plenty that have the same dynamic here Lear.
A small override is not a battle line for me- and that can be debatable-
But here's the deal- we start dividing the pilot group, even in small ways, and cliques will develop--And that is much more expensive in the long run than a couple dollars more to get an override. Many airlines have gone down that path and it's one of the reasons outsourcing has been tolerated- and we all remember legacy guys referring to our 73 as a "light twin" - IMO, I want us to think in much longer terms and not have anything in our contract that could remotely go there. Small seeds can grow.

 

[jonjuan]

Wave, I generally agree about keeping the same rate so everyone just bids the flying they like instead of chasing a rate. I've never been a fan of a system that encourages pilots to bid flying that they don't really care to do just because it pays a few dollars more an hour.

But, even UPS pays an international override. It's compensation for putting up with the hassles involved with international flying, such as customs, that aren't involved with domestic flying. I don't blame SWAPA for not achieving an international override now, since their rates are already above everyone else by a significant margin, but if that changes, then an international override would be justified.

So, it will be justified sometime this week? :beer:

 

[jonjuan]

For me, international pay is more about how much more expensive it is to eat internationally. You can't just run down to the corner for Ruby Tuesday's or Friday's in most places, you're stuck on property eating $20 breakfasts, $30 lunches, and $40 dinners, before you even talk about alcohol.

The best property we have is Punta Cana because it's an all-inclusive at no additional cost to us. If you don't want to pay a good international override, fine, just put us up at an all-inclusive included in the room rate. Otherwise, better DOUBLE the per diem or add an international flying override, or you're flying at a loss every time you fly an international trip.

You do make a good point about the AIs. If 1/2 of your overnights are at AIs where food is free and 1/2 at non AIs where food is double normal rates, you are essentially "breaking even.".

 

[Lear70]

You do make a good point about the AIs. If 1/2 of your overnights are at AIs where food is free and 1/2 at non AIs where food is double normal rates, you are essentially "breaking even.".

Well, I never expect to MAKE money off per diem, but then again, I don't like to eat junk food, so I eat daily somewhere decent for either lunch or dinner (fish or chicken and veggies without getting a sodium bomb).

Eating like a real person instead of a fast-food addict is expensive, but I'm not going to sacrifice my health for the almighty dollar, and I have no urge to pre-cook 3 days worth of food and carry it around in a cooler like some people.

Therefore I notice when the per diem rate doesn't cover the cost of getting decent food. And Wave, didn't mean to insist on "drawing a line in the sand" over per diem or international rates, simply pointing out that if you DON'T carve out additional money for doing it, you're going to spend more money at work on international overnights than domestic.

However, the novelty of it will probably keep people bidding them for many years to come, I'm sure. In the end, unless it's PUJ, or unless it's the dead of winter and I just want to go somewhere warm, I'd just as soon do a long overnight in SEA/SFO/LAX/AUS/SAT/BOS/xyz where it's fun and there's an easy way to get out of the hotel and go do things at more "normal" prices. But then again, I've been able to bid Int'l overnights every month for the last year and a half, so the novelty of it has come and gone.

Now if we started flying to Keflavik or Reykjavic in the summertime...

 

[waveflyer]

;-)
Blond hair, blue eyes(!) I'm with you on that

 

[Lear70]

And not the "blonde in a bottle..."

:beer:

 

[frqntflyr]

The problem with this side letter is it sets a recent precedent for 6 TFP for RSV. I do not believe reserves should be paid 10% less than everyone else. I think that reserve is our weakest contract section. Sitting for free after getting abused for 3 weeks, b scale 6 TFP, getting used twice in one day, 15 hr RAPs, no long call, 6hrs of block liability on 1-3 day blocks. Why agree to 6 TFP for reserve when negotiating international? If we vote NO do we really think the company won't sweeten it up a bit? Will they scrap INTL flying? Will they dare come back with worse after all we have given over the past 2 years? Let's show we can vote NO when a package is not up to snuff. I've voted NO for TA1 YES for TA2, NO for -800s, YES for SL10. I'm by no means a hardcore NO voter but this is too scrambled and off point IMO. So far my feeling on the line is this fails.

 

[scoreboardII]

I'm with Lear, I've sacrificed my body to gods of airport food for 10 years, no more.

In either event, it's NA, the FA's just voted no on giving up ADG, maybe we can follow their lead and go back to the drawing board.

 

[ultrarunner]

Bubba said SWA's scope states, "No RJ's ever". Out of curiosity, what do you guys consider RJ's? Is a EMB 190/195 considered an RJ? If I remember correctly, Embraer does not categorize it as such. Is it 75 seats and below? 50 seats? Not trying to make an argument where there isn't one. Just curious of your language.
Thanks

I suspect the language states that SWA doesn't whore-out it's flying. Who gives a crapola what size bird it is...

It's the fact there is language in their contract which PROHIBITS that activity. THAT is what matters. And it's what protects a SWAPA job!

Just my opinion...

 

[scoreboardII]

This is nice:


May 21, 2012


Fellow AirTran Pilots,

This morning, the Delta MEC ratified a tentative agreement for a new collective bargaining agreement, which includes pay rates for the Boeing 717. Let me stress that as of today, your MEC has not been told of any specific plan to retire the B717 early. Nonetheless, we are extremely cognizant of the negative ramifications of such a scenario to our pilots; including a potential loss of captain seats, serious financial harm and the possibility that pilots who bid the B717 to avoid commuting could find themselves becoming commuters in a very challenging environment.

For our new Company, which is working diligently to meet its return on investment targets, it is probably easy math to see the economic advantage of retiring the B717 ahead of the B737 “classics.” What is less obvious is the impact such a move would have on the morale of our pilots, and the culture of the airline.

For the past several weeks, my fellow MEC officers, as well as your status representatives, have been hearing from a broad spectrum of pilots who express they are feeling as something less than a full Southwest employee. Management has informed us that they have heard you as well.

It is our expectation that Southwest leadership recognizes that if a deal is reached to retire the B717s before 2015 the world will look very different to our pilots than the one they were expecting after the seniority integration agreement was ratified.

While getting rid of the B717s and moving back to a single fleet-type may be a smart business move, should the transaction take place, we cannot accept that once again, it would be the AirTran pilots who will shoulder the burden exclusively.

We believe that Mr. Kelly and his team, unlike other airline managements, value the sacrifices that we have already made, and will do what is right. If they find a deal to retire the B717 quickly, the facts on the ground will have changed with regard to the SIA, and not by our doing. Should this occur, be assured that your MEC will be engaging with management to mitigate the negative impact to our members.

To reiterate, as of today, we do not have information of a deal to retire the B717 ahead of what is outlined in the transition agreement.


I’ll see you at the airport.

Fly safe,

Capt. Jim Morris, Chairman
ATN Master Executive Council

Sorry, but when the CEO tells you he's going to get rid of an airframe before you vote, you might want to consider that it could or will happen.

 

[PCL_128]

The CEO never told us that before the vote. In fact, we were told by SWA management at road shows that the airplanes would be around until the leases expire.

 

[shootr]

When I got hired on at SWA, they never told me they'd buy another airline, in fact, they told me I might upgrade in 5 years. You make decisions in life with the info you have before you. We both said yes by 86%. Anything past that is business by management which none of us have control over.

You knew the possibilities and to say you didn't makes you look petty and foolish. Sorry if that stings. You could have said no. How might that have worked out?

 

[PCL_128]

You could have said no.

In fact, I did. But the majority rules. Such is a democracy.

I don't disagree with your premise that we knew the possibilities before voting. But I was just responding to scoreboard's claim that we were told something before voting that we in fact were not told.

 

[Lear70]

The CEO never told us that before the vote. In fact, we were told by SWA management at road shows that the airplanes would be around until the leases expire.

Correct.

At the road shows, the question was asked whether the plan was for the 717's to go away early. The response from Southwest management representatives was the same as during negotiations, that by accepting the lower pay until 1/1/15, it had made the financials of the aircraft acceptable for them to remain through at least the end of the integration, and likely to their lease expiration.

In the SIA documents there is no reference anywhere to the 717's going away early except in Side Letter 10 (which by Process Agreement we had no say in), with one small blurb as follows:

E.2 - AirTran pilots whose seat positions are eliminated by reduction of the B717 fleet will bid system seniority for their new assignment.

In combination with the rest of Side Letter 10's restrictions, the early elimination of the 717 would take every last AirTran Captain and make them an F/O, due to the clause that no AirTran pilot will be allowed to hold 737 CA until 1/1/15.

In negotiations there was NO stated possibility of early retirement of the 717, that's zero, nada, nothing, zilch. We discussed that possibility in private discussions, brought it up in negotiations (which primarily was with SWA management, not SWAPA), and were repeatedly assured that the airplane wasn't going anywhere as long as we ratified SIA 2.

May or may not make a difference; it all depends on what happens with the 717's...