SWA hiring and international growth. From Gary

[spciii]

Thanks Carl P. Glad to see someone can recognize my rapist wit. Welcome to SWA. Once the SLI foodfight is over, things will settle down and we'll get down to the business of inter-galactic domination. A heads-up for you though . . My name is Chuck and I like skim milk and two splendas for my Venti bold. I like to be on a first-name basis with my baristas.

 

[GuppyWN]

Dude you are on a roll!

Gup

 

[Kharma Police]

Dude you are on a roll!

Gup

He's rolling something. Big fat Zig-Zags rolled with the chronic.

 

[carl p]

Thanks Carl P. Glad to see someone can recognize my rapist wit. Welcome to SWA. Once the SLI foodfight is over, things will settle down and we'll get down to the business of inter-galactic domination. A heads-up for you though . . My name is Chuck and I like skim milk and two splendas for my Venti bold. I like to be on a first-name basis with my baristas.

LOL, I'll make a mental note...

 

[IAHERJ]

Hello My friend. I posted the whole Hawaii and South America thing. This is what I heard the other day. The whole east and west thing, is what
Swa and AT bring to each other. Why can't we pump each other up? Just pumping up a fellow brother. I am happy for the new UA and the possibilities it brings you and your family. Why can't you be happy for us?

I am happy for SWA and AirTran. I posted on the first page of the first thread on the morning it was announced. It wasn't until I saw all the "We're going to dominate the world" posts within the past few days that I started in with my "arrogant" questions. I sincerely am happy for the AirTran guys who will benefit from getting out from under the contract they have been working under for so long and join a team led by a management group that truly wants to run a successful airline. No doubt SWA is and will continue to be a major player in this country. Low fares and quality service will now arrive in Mexico, the Caribbean, and possibly Hawaii now. That is exciting news I'm sure.

Sincerely,

Congrats

 

[texman]

I am happy for SWA and AirTran. I posted on the first page of the first thread on the morning it was announced. It wasn't until I saw all the "We're going to dominate the world" posts within the past few days that I started in with my "arrogant" questions. I sincerely am happy for the AirTran guys who will benefit from getting out from under the contract they have been working under for so long and join a team led by a management group that truly wants to run a successful airline. No doubt SWA is and will continue to be a major player in this country. Low fares and quality service will now arrive in Mexico, the Caribbean, and possibly Hawaii now. That is exciting news I'm sure.

Sincerely,

Congrats

No worries. I think here in the next 10 years will all will be one big carrier. Government is taken over.

 

[waveflyer]

No worries. I think here in the next 10 years will all will be one big carrier. Government is taken over.

Retarded post if the day...

Spcii- +1- I like it!

 

[tomcruse7]

Who pays for the type rating SWA or ?

 

[Full of LUV]

Low fares and quality service will now arrive in Mexico, the Caribbean, and possibly Hawaii now. That is exciting news I'm sure.

Sincerely,

Congrats

Where is the Hawaii discussion? I hadn't read that.... has there been another proclamation by GK?
LUV

 

[Formula 1]

Without having the exact breakdown of your trips, how much block versus credit you're flying compared hours to TFP, it would appear you are working your butt off almost the most you can make. At the hourly conversion of $108 per hour, you're telling me you're going to credit 1,389 hours this year? Really? Or are you including per diem, vacation pay, JA override, etc?

If you're really interested in a breakdown of an HOURLY comparison for someone who, simply flies their 80 hour line and compare it apples-to-apples, then sure.

Assuming I come over with anywhere NEAR my seniority, and assuming it takes 10 more years to upgrade, my pay starting at 6th year SWA F/O for the next 10 years is:

129 * 1000 hours per year (just an easy averaging tool) = $129,000
134 = $134,000
136 = $136,000
137 = $137,000
141 = $141,000
143 = $143,000
144 = $144,000
144 = $144,000
144 = $144,000
144 = $144,000

Total income the next 10 years: $1,396,000

By DOCC we should have our new contract. The minimums on them are a 30% increase for F/O's, 16% for CA's, give or take a percentage point in the year-by-year flow (taken from our negotiating committee emails and subtracting 10% from those original proposals to come to a real-world "middle ground" figure).

I would then fly 2 more years as an F/O, then upgrade here at AirTran, being in the top 15% of the seniority list on the F/O side.

96 = 96,000
101 = 101,000
153 = 153,000
159 = 159,000
167 = 167,000
171 = 171,000
177 = 177,000
177 = 177,000
177 = 177,000
177 = 177,000

Total income remaining stand-alone at AirTran with our EXISTING, FIRM delivery schedule of aircraft allowing my upgrade in the next two years:

$1,549,000

Loss of $153,000 plus the investment loss of not having that money to invest over that 10 years = easy $200,000 when compounded.

These numbers may make no sense to you now, but when we get our final contract in the next few months and the numbers work out close, it will make much more sense to you.

p.s. It takes about 4 years as a Southwest Captain to make that money back. That's what we give up in this transaction. Present value of money, the ability to invest it now, and 8 years of being a Captain. Not the most important thing in the world, but if I could have my 'druthers, I'd ruther be in the left seat than the right.

YMMV

Hi Lear,

First of all welcome to Southwest! I am a 6 year FO and I have already earned $115,757.15 for the year on my October 5th pay stub. My October 20th check is going to be huge because I accumulated over 133 trips for September. The 5th check is only an advance of only 45 trips and our pay is one month after the fact. So my 20th check will have the other 88 trips for pay on it. I also still have 5 more pay periods and I would but me close to over a $148.000 by years end. As you can see, I will max out your max prediction of only $136,000 by more than $12,000 as a 6 year FO. These are the advantages of being on a trip system.

An average AirTran Captain earns around a $120,000 a year compared to an average Southwest Captain that will well over a $200,000 just flying their line.

Airline Pilot Central has tried to convert our trip pay system to an hour system. What it fails to correct for is the ability for us to earn more than a 100 trips a month. You can easily fly around a 120 trips a month here with out much effort and still have quality of life.

According to Airline Pilot Central's data, a Southwest 7th year FO earns the same as AirTran 7 year CA of $137 an hour. Our SW 7 year CA will earns around $203 an hour. That is a 48% increase your group would be enjoying here. Your inflated figures are including a 15% increase on a flight hour and that's if your assumed contract comes true.

Lear, please don't take this the wrong way. Believe me, I don't want to merge with you. I want my company to grow organically and not by taking over your airline. I would rather continue to compete directly with you and eventually to put you out of business.

So what does your Pilot Group bring to the table that is Fair and Equitable to the Southwest Pilot Group?

Pay?
Vacation?
Sick Leave?
Retirement?
Medical?
Line Improvement Trip Trade?
More days off?
Quality of Life?
Job Security?
Commuter Policy?

Any of these?

Last time I checked, your pilot group vote a 98% majority to strike and to risk not having a job. That means you choose not have any future career expectations as an AirTran Pilot.

Again, welcome to Southwest. Its a great company and you'll be happy that you are here. Really!

Formula 1

 

[Full of LUV]

Lear, please don't take this the wrong way. Believe me, I don't want to merge with you. I want my company to grow organically and not by taking over your airline. I would rather continue to compete directly with you and eventually to put you out of business.

This is where you are misguided, you assume that you can have significantly higher costs, yet compete as an LCC and win against all. This is the arrogance that will sink your SLI. Obviously if it was as easy to grow organically on the east coast, ATL, and internationally, then GK would have pursued it, but YOUR mgt has decided that this is the less costly and risky route, and it may have not turned up roses your way either. So laying your guilt upon the AAI gang is not exactly fair as they could assert the same saying with their far suprerior operating costs, they were looking to squeeze SWA out of many of their markets or at least make them bleed to maintain what they have.
LUV

 

[Formula 1]

This is where you are misguided, you assume that you can have significantly higher costs, yet compete as an LCC and win against all. This is the arrogance that will sink your SLI. Obviously if it was as easy to grow organically on the east coast, ATL, and internationally, then GK would have pursued it, but YOUR mgt has decided that this is the less costly and risky route, and it may have not turned up roses your way either. So laying your guilt upon the AAI gang is not exactly fair as they could assert the same saying with their far suprerior operating costs, they were looking to squeeze SWA out of many of their markets or at least make them bleed to maintain what they have.
LUV

How are my feelings misguided Obwan? This truly how I feel.

Answer these questions since you know me better than I know myself:

So what does your Pilot Group bring to the table that is Fair and Equitable to the Southwest Pilot Group?

Pay?
Vacation?
Sick Leave?
Retirement?
Medical?
Line Improvement Trip Trade?
More days off?
Quality of Life?
Job Security?
Commuter Policy?

 

[Full of LUV]

Feelings....

How are my feelings misguided Obwan? This truly how I feel.

Answer these questions since you know me better than I know myself:

So what does your Pilot Group bring to the table that is Fair and Equitable to the Southwest Pilot Group?

Pay?
Vacation?
Sick Leave?
Retirement?
Medical?
Line Improvement Trip Trade?
More days off?
Quality of Life?
Job Security?
Commuter Policy?

My point had nothing to do with your FEELINGS... more just some facts.

AAI's costs are considerably lower than yours for many reasons including the one's you've just listed above.

Your assumption that you could obtain this kind of growth organically may be what is false and in fact without this merger, you may have stagnated for years or even began to shrink in the face of other LCC competition in your key markets.

Your mgmt has concluded that buying the competition out not only gives them immediate growth (granted not growth that benefits you so much, but helps mgmt compete) with less risk and expense than organically.

Welcome to the major airline biz!

 

[Lear70]

Airline Pilot Central has tried to convert our trip pay system to an hour system. What it fails to correct for is the ability for us to earn more than a 100 trips a month. You can easily fly around a 120 trips a month here with out much effort and still have quality of life.

With 16+ days off a month? I doubt it. Probably closer to 12-14. I have several friends there, and the dollar amounts you're talking about are creative dropping and picking up of premium time to keep 15+ days off or foregoing days off for pay. I would certainly do the first, but when the premium pay goes away, you wouldn't find me doing the second. My time at home is more important than money.

Lear, please don't take this the wrong way. Believe me, I don't want to merge with you. I want my company to grow organically and not by taking over your airline. I would rather continue to compete directly with you and eventually to put you out of business.

You had me up until that last line. After that, pretty much anyone who understands airline financials disregarded everything you'd said before that and most of what you said after. Why? Because your last statement is farcical and flies in the face of the established fact of our profitability. Nice try, though. Subject dismissed. Next...

So what does your Pilot Group bring to the table that is Fair and Equitable to the Southwest Pilot Group?

Pay?
Vacation?
Sick Leave?
Retirement?
Medical?
Line Improvement Trip Trade?
More days off?
Quality of Life?
Job Security?
Commuter Policy?

Any of these?

Fair and Equitable has ZERO to do with most of the above. If you knew the FIRST THING about a SLI negotiation, you'd understand that. Of course, if you knew the first thing about a SLI negotiation, you probably wouldn't have posted such nonsense in the first place.

You're making a financial argument in a non-financial discussion. Seniority has NOTHING to do with money. Period. The end. Sorry you don't like it, but that's just the way life is. Argument dismissed. Next.

Job security? Yes, we bring that, by offering new growth opportunities Southwest didn't have before. Your CEO came right out and said it. End of discussion. Buh-bye.

Last time I checked, your pilot group vote a 98% majority to strike and to risk not having a job. That means you choose not have any future career expectations as an AirTran Pilot.

No, we didn't choose NOT to have a future. We chose to call Management's bluff. They would have had no choice but to negotiate with us during a strike. No one closes the doors on a $100+ Million a year company for raises that equate to $20 Million a year.

As I've said... them's the facts. Not going to argue about them. Not going to debate them. Just educating anyone who's interested in learning the truth. Your own MEC will be doing the same thing shortly enough... The fact of the matter is, in an arbitration, in all likelihood, this will go pretty much relative seniority unless our merger committees come up with something our pilots will buy off on. Hint: it's not a stapler, or anything even approximating such.

At the end of the day, I'm happy to be employed, and while my job is a great career, but it's not my life. I'll tell my Merger Committee what I believe is fair and won't back off on it, but whatever happens here, I'll still come to work with a smile on my face, do my thing, and go home. Most pilots worth their salt do the same... Happy to have a beer with you when this thing is all said and done and, if I end up junior to you or right seat, I'll sling the gear with a smile. Life's too short to be (or stay) P.O.'d about something I have no control over.

 

[Formula 1]

My point had nothing to do with your FEELINGS... more just some facts.

AAI's costs are considerably lower than yours for many reasons including the one's you've just listed above.

Your assumption that you could obtain this kind of growth organically may be what is false and in fact without this merger, you may have stagnated for years or even began to shrink in the face of other LCC competition in your key markets.

Your mgmt has concluded that buying the competition out not only gives them immediate growth (granted not growth that benefits you so much, but helps mgmt compete) with less risk and expense than organically.

Welcome to the major airline biz!

I don't disagree with your personnel thoughts here. I rather agree with all of it. I think this will be very good for Southwest.

But, in my previous post, you choose to attack a personnel statement to Lear as being non-factual. Are you a New York Times Fact Checker?

 

[Formula 1]

With 16+ days off a month? I doubt it. Probably closer to 12-14. I have several friends there, and the dollar amounts you're talking about are creative dropping and picking up of premium time to keep 15+ days off or foregoing days off for pay. I would certainly do the first, but when the premium pay goes away, you wouldn't find me doing the second. My time at home is more important than money.


You had me up until that last line. After that, pretty much anyone who understands airline financials disregarded everything you'd said before that and most of what you said after. Why? Because your last statement is farcical and flies in the face of the established fact of our profitability. Nice try, though. Subject dismissed. Next...


Fair and Equitable has ZERO to do with most of the above. If you knew the FIRST THING about a SLI negotiation, you'd understand that. Of course, if you knew the first thing about a SLI negotiation, you probably wouldn't have posted such nonsense in the first place.

You're making a financial argument in a non-financial discussion. Seniority has NOTHING to do with money. Period. The end. Sorry you don't like it, but that's just the way life is. Argument dismissed. Next.

Job security? Yes, we bring that, by offering new growth opportunities Southwest didn't have before. Your CEO came right out and said it. End of discussion. Buh-bye.


No, we didn't choose NOT to have a future. We chose to call Management's bluff. They would have had no choice but to negotiate with us during a strike. No one closes the doors on a $100+ Million a year company for raises that equate to $20 Million a year.

As I've said... them's the facts. Not going to argue about them. Not going to debate them. Just educating anyone who's interested in learning the truth. Your own MEC will be doing the same thing shortly enough... The fact of the matter is, in an arbitration, in all likelihood, this will go pretty much relative seniority unless our merger committees come up with something our pilots will buy off on. Hint: it's not a stapler, or anything even approximating such.

At the end of the day, I'm happy to be employed, and while my job is a great career, but it's not my life. I'll tell my Merger Committee what I believe is fair and won't back off on it, but whatever happens here, I'll still come to work with a smile on my face, do my thing, and go home. Most pilots worth their salt do the same... Happy to have a beer with you when this thing is all said and done and, if I end up junior to you or right seat, I'll sling the gear with a smile. Life's too short to be (or stay) P.O.'d about something I have no control over.

Lear,

Thank you dis-missing the facts and avoiding the questions directed towards you.

cheers!:beer:

 

[waveflyer]

Every airline with a seniority list would rather grow organically~~ but unlike Denver I don't see how we could have done it in ATL-
But AT was seeing crazy low fares from Delta too as they wield their network-
Without this acquisition both companies would have been bleeding each other while the legacies were doing their best to do that also-
The question then becomes~ what puts our pilot group in the best position?
I think this acquisition is better than all the blood-letting- I don't necessarily understand anyone on either side that doesn't see that

 

[Lear70]

I don't disagree with your personnel thoughts here. I rather agree with all of it. I think this will be very good for Southwest.

But, in my previous post, you choose to attack a personnel statement to Lear as being non-factual. Are you a New York Times Fact Checker?

What's the matter? Worried about facts getting in the way of the emotional argument for a SLI?

(I know it's tough to convey friendly banter on a message board, but I do enjoy a good debate as long as people don't go on personal attacks).

 

[Full of LUV]

I don't disagree with your personnel thoughts here. I rather agree with all of it. I think this will be very good for Southwest.

But, in my previous post, you choose to attack a personnel statement to Lear as being non-factual. Are you a New York Times Fact Checker?

Formula,
I wasn't responding to Lear's facts, I got lost in the numbers since it's all notional anyway.
I disagreed with the premise that SWA could grow organically and run AAI out of business. I think the mgmt of both saw impending overlap as they tried to expand in the future and the result would have been stunted futures for both until some event caused a shift the force.

Like most other pilots, I like the fact that one more lower paying pilot job is being eliminated as it just leads to the downward pressure of all pilot contracts. I hope they figure out an SLI, but it will be arbitrated and so most of all I hope that the SWA group negotiates something out of all this for themselves in the form of a pay bump for allowing 800's and facilitating the merger.

BTW, I love that avatar, is it a glider? The yellow just makes the thing pop.

 

[Ty Webb]

According to Airline Pilot Central's data, a Southwest 7th year FO earns the same as AirTran 7 year CA of $137 an hour.

Yeah, based upon our 2001 contract. If you want to know where AirTran CA pay will be at the time this merger happens, look at Alaska's rates, not our 2001 rates.

Also, the "average" AirTran CA doesn't earn $120K, where did you get that from? :laugh:

We don't use "trip for pay" but we have quite a bit of "soft time". 85 hrs credit is the norm, and that's only flying your line, not picking up anything. For line holders, take the hourly rate and multiply by 1.15 if you want to get a closer approximation. A guy making $137./hr would credit more like $158., not $120. Again, this is based on our 2001 contract.

But you know what? It doesn't really matter, because if it goes to arbitration, they're not going to look at who made what.