SWA / Frontier Deal Off For Now!

[flint4xx]

Last year SW hired almost as many pilots that are on the entire F9 list. While this year may seem to give a windall to SW junior pilots, the reality is that these same numbers will occur anyhow in the not-to-distant future from new aircraft deliveries anyhow. Furthermore, once the age 65 crowd starts to retire, large numbers of new hires will follow. Ergo, no windfall when taken in the context of an entire career. Nice try though.

 

[Helmsmen]

Republic 20yr Captain max pay/hr = $119.00
Southwest 5yr F/O pay/hr = $119.00

Not to mention 7+% 401k match, cheap healthcare insurance, profit sharing etc...

 

[canyonblue737]

Republic 20yr Captain max pay/hr = $119.00
Southwest 5yr F/O pay/hr = $119.00

Not to mention 7+% 401k match, cheap healthcare insurance, profit sharing etc...

It's not even accurate, I am a 5th year FO and get paid almost $108 "per trip." It's gets complicated by I average 100 trips per month (about 85-90 hrs) and some guys work the system and pick up to the tune of 115+ trips per month. So in reality it is a lot more than the 20 yr Republic CA, a lot more.

 

[BoilerUP]

Why do so many SWA guys here seem to think RAH buying Frontier would result in them being stapled to the bottom of the RJET list, taking any kind of pay cut from where they are today, or flying a 145 in CMH for $37/hr?

No doubt the income potential is higher at SWA, but geez, do some of ya have to resort to fear tactics and spreading misinformation?

 

[Vegaspilot99]

I never seen anyone turn down a winning lottery ticket. What morons!! Pay protection with staple was fair and equitable. I bet there were 550 F9 pilots willing to take that deal and 50 old ass captain refusing to be FOs again with a $50k pay raise not including raise in benefits.

I concur. WTF

 

[GuppyWN]

Why do so many SWA guys here seem to think RAH buying Frontier would result in them being stapled to the bottom of the RJET list, taking any kind of pay cut from where they are today, or flying a 145 in CMH for $37/hr?

No doubt the income potential is higher at SWA, but geez, do some of ya have to resort to fear tactics and spreading misinformation?

You are aware of what RAH did to Midwest, aren't you?

Gup

 

[airlinepilot]

Why do so many SWA guys here seem to think RAH buying Frontier would result in them being stapled to the bottom of the RJET list, taking any kind of pay cut from where they are today, or flying a 145 in CMH for $37/hr?

No doubt the income potential is higher at SWA, but geez, do some of ya have to resort to fear tactics and spreading misinformation?

RUH stapled Midwest. WHy should they do Frontier any different. In fact if they don't staple Frontier then it gives the guys and gals who came from Midwest a better court case.

 

[BoilerUP]

You are aware of what RAH did to Midwest, aren't you?

RUH stapled Midwest. WHy should they do Frontier any different. In fact if they don't staple Frontier then it gives the guys and gals who came from Midwest a better court case.

Nobody has stapled anybody in the RAH/MEH deal; there hasn't been a SLI.

That's ugly, no doubt...but its FAR from being a "done deal" in regards to MEH pilots being integrated into the RAH master seniority list.

 

[JetDude]

There's a lot of discourse on this thread about why FAPA should or shouldn't go with the SWA deal... and there's lots of misinformation to go with these opinions.

A few posters (perhaps the same one on several replies) keeps throwing out arbitration. One party can't drag another to arbitration. It doesn't work that way so, it is a non-player in the discussion.

Others insinuate that should the deal go through, F9 pilots will have to interview for their SWA positions... in fact they will be on the seniority list from the beginning (position to be decided through negotiation).

No one can fault FAPA or SWAPA (although several posters have tried) to get the best deal they can. It's the American way. You get what you negotiate... PERIOD.

I've read a lot about what's wrong with the SWA deal, but haven't seen anything about what's good about the RAH deal... this is the inevitable result if SWA withdraws. RAH has already shown a few of their cards regarding their plans for F9. Sure, they will operate them independently... for a while. Already announced is their intention to codeshare with an acquired Midwest (transitioned fully to RJ airframes). This isn't a codeshare where a large aircraft operator (F9) seeks a partner to serve as a feeder for their network. It's the other way around... an RJ operator is forcing this on a wholly owned subsidiary (F9). Profitable (F9) routes can easily be discontinued to be replaced with Midwest (RJ) flying and you won't be able to stop it. Once routes begin to disappear, RAH won't need the larger aircraft or the people anymore. I hope this isn't the case, but I worry it will be the inevitable outcome.

 

[spiffomatic]

RUH stapled Midwest. WHy should they do Frontier any different. In fact if they don't staple Frontier then it gives the guys and gals who came from Midwest a better court case.

Nothing could be further from the truth, so please stop making things up.

The process is ongoing and the representatives from both pilot groups are working out an integration right now. I'm under the impression that each side has a respect for what the other side brings to the table. I don't know what the final outcome will be, but you can be sure it won't be a staple. A prior example would be the acquisition of Shuttle America, with a few Saabs that didn't transfer over. Those pilots were integrated in a far better manner than staple.

 

[Quiet Flight]

Others insinuate that should the deal go through, F9 pilots will have to interview for their SWA positions... in fact they will be on the seniority list from the beginning (position to be decided through negotiation). Could have been on it LAST NIGHT.

I've read a lot about what's wrong with the SWA deal, but haven't seen anything about what's good about the RAH deal... this is the inevitable result if SWA withdraws. RAH has already shown a few of their cards regarding their plans for F9. Sure, they will operate them independently... for a while. Already announced is their intention to codeshare with an acquired with Midwest (transitioned fully to RJ airframes). This isn't a codeshare where a large aircraft operator (F9) seeks a partner to serve as a feeder for their network. It's the other way around... an RJ operator is forcing this on a wholly owned subsidiary (F9). Profitable (F9) routes can easily be discontinued to be replaced with Midwest (RJ) flying and you won't be able to stop it. Once routes begin to disappear, RAH won't need the larger aircraft or the people anymore. I hope this isn't the case, but I worry it will be the inevitable outcome.

Excellent.

Will someone, preferably from F9 or RAH, please post all of the benefits to taking the RAH deal in lieu of the WN deal? We have all read what F9 pilots stand to gain at SWA, but I've yet to read about these same benefits at RAH. Maybe I missed that thread. Any takers?

 

[spiffomatic]

well, less bloviation at RAH for one.

 

[sleeves]

Damn boys. That's quite a poker face you've got there in Denver!

You do realize it's SOUTHWEST AIRLINES trying to give you a job don't you?

Gup

Insert United for Southwest and you get a feeling of the arrogance UAL pilots had in the 80's and 90's. I hope the uniform britches they give you guys come with elastic.

 

[dragontamer]

First off, I'd like to tell the F9 guys I'm wishing them the best. This is the toughest industry in the toughest environment--I feel for them and their families.
The SWA culture is extremely important to all of us here. If someone is not happy jumping in at number last, getting the ATIS, throwing the gear, hanging out with the crews at the end of the evening, then I do not want them here. We have former AF-1 pilots, astronauts, test pilots and some of the sharpest civilian types here. For the most part 99% were THRILLED to get the oportunity to be a COPILOT here--I was. The F9 guys, who I respect, nevertheless were our competitors, not part of our company. The idea that any of them should jump ahead of folks (some of who left F9 to start over) that have been here is poison to our culture of taking care of each other.

 

[Quiet Flight]

From www.swapa.org in the members only section. Posted a little while ago. Yes, it's for real.

SWAPA and Lynx in talks
SWAPA pilots,


In light of the very dynamic situations of the last day or two, SWAPA has started to open exploratory talks with the Lynx pilots. Lynx is equally part of the transaction and we feel that it is important to include them in the process. They have reached out to us, and SWAPA feels it important to explore all avenues. The Lynx pilots seem genuinely excited about the opportunity to be a part of the Southwest Family. We look forward to our future discussion.

Your M&A Committee

It'd be pretty funny if all of the Lynx guys end up SENIOR to the F9 guys assuming this whole thing worked out.

Lynx guy: You're offering to staple and pay protect us at your rates Mr. SWAPA man?

SWAPA Man: Yes.

Lynx guy: We'll take it.

SWAPA Man: Smart move. By the way, you just got a 150% raise and you're senior to all of the guys at the "major" you were feeding last week. Welcome aboard. Drinks are on us. For a year.

 

[GuppyWN]

Insert United for Southwest and you get a feeling of the arrogance UAL pilots had in the 80's and 90's. I hope the uniform britches they give you guys come with elastic.

I wasn't trying to be a jerk about it. You can't seriously think it would be better to be hired by RAH than Southwest.

That's all I was saying.
Gup

 

[Quiet Flight]

Newest update from SWAPA M&A Committee. Hit my email about ten mins ago. Just clarified some of the language re the SWAPA offer that was in this morning's statement.

[FONT=Arial Narrow,Arial MT Condensed Light,sans-serif] Frontier transaction status still fluid

[/FONT] [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]SWAPA Pilots,

It has been a whirlwind week for your M&A Committee. We have been in meetings with our M&A counsel in Washington Monday and Tuesday and quickly returned to Dallas on Wednesday for a pressing meeting with FAPA. We would like to bring you up to date on the Frontier transaction.

Weeks ago, the Company approached SWAPA for ideas on how to complete the Frontier transaction with our pilots' support. We expressed our concerns about new federal legislation on the books (McCaskill/Bond) and its potential effect on pilot seniority at Southwest. The Company, at SWAPA's request, included a "labor contingency clause" requiring labor agreements in place prior to the closing of the Frontier acquisition. This action took the possibility of binding arbitration out of play and protected our pilots from a harmful arbitrated seniority integration.

As the Company was developing their formal binding proposal to acquire Frontier out of bankruptcy, Southwest bankruptcy counsel expressed concern that the Southwest bid could be excluded from the auction process because Frontier legal counsel deemed the proposal "not qualified" for the auction process due to the labor contingency clause. However, the labor contingency clause would be deemed acceptable and the bid deemed qualified if SWAPA and FAPA reached an Agreement in Principle for seniority integration. That triggered negotiations Thursday between SWAPA and FAPA.

SWAPA's concerns throughout this process have been to protect our seniority list and our Collective Bargaining Agreement (CBA). The only way to adequately protect our entire pilot group was to place the FAPA pilots below the SWAPA pilots on our new Master Seniority List.

FAPA's concerns are:

> Job Protection They WOULD have had this.
> Seat Protection Out of control egos say what?
> Pay Protection Not just protection, but WHOPPING raises.
> Domicile Protection Grandfathered for 3 years not enough?

FAPA's position was for relative seniority with a "variable" for the ratio for integration. Clearly, meeting all of FAPA's concerns would be an enormous windfall for Frontier pilots at the expense of Southwest pilots.

Understanding the need for a quick resolution, SWAPA (in coordination with the Company) offered to pay protect FAPA pilots at SWAPA FO pay rates or higher FAPA non-concessionary book rates adjusted for SWAPA negotiated contract raises and offered grandfather rights for a DEN domicile for three years following transition agreement time period. As of 2230 last night, no agreement had been reached.
This morning, Southwest will be requesting to delay the auction process to solve additional problems in the bid which will allow more time for labor bargaining. Frontier legal counsel will determine whether or not to extend the auction deadline.

We are still in negotiations and the situation is very fluid. We wanted to keep you up to date with the most current information and will provide more information as it becomes available.

[/FONT]I read the part about pay rates to mean not only would F9 guys get pay protected, but this would be done at the NEW TA rates, rumored to be 9% over current rates. Does that sound about right?

 

[ATRCAPT]

I bet there were 550 F9 pilots willing to take that deal and 50 old ass captain refusing to be FOs again with a $50k pay raise not including raise in benefits.

I think you are exactly right. I know several F9 FO's who would GLADLY take a staple, pay raise and stability over whatever sh!t sandwich Republic is going to throw at them.

I hate to see this sort of thing happen to anyone, but SWA is a healthy company and F9 is bankrupt. Economic survival of the fittest. The government and their laws should but the he!! out.

 

[SWA2000]

I think this is a BS post. Looked on SWAPA web site and cannot find anything about it. Also no email alert from SWAPA or the Merger adn Acquisition Committee which has been keeping us in the loop with email alerts and info.....Let's see some proof

It is on the SWAPA website under the forums. Merger/Acquistion has posted some comm updates. Also look under the Frontier forum thread on the SWAPA website. The fact that we haven't heard from GK would mean that they are still trying to negotiate with the judge to allow for extra time to reach some sort of labor agreement.

PS When you find it you need to come back and apologize. You hurt my feelings.

 

[gutshotdraw]

"The hardest thing about playing chicken, is knowing when to flinch."

Captain Bart Mancuso
USS Dallas
Hunt for Red October