SWA / Frontier Deal Off For Now!

[instructordude]

I thnk FAPA may be credited with making one of the worst business decisions in AVIATION HISTORY.

Disagree. They will force arbitration and get seat protection and relative seniority to their respective seat. It is Federal Law Mohawk Allegeny. These guys know what they are doing.

 

[flint4xx]

Dear intructordude, were you kicked in the head as a child?

 

[instructordude]

Dear intructordude, were you kicked in the head as a child?

Laugh all you want but even an imbicible like me can see where this one is going. Congrats to the Frontier guys for playing intelligent hardball.

 

[Quiet Flight]

From the SWAPA Communications Committee. Posted this morning at 0718 Central.

M&A Communications 08/13/09

SWAPA and FAPA begin negotiations


SWAPA Pilots,

It’s been a whirlwind week for your M&A committee. Yesterday afternoon we traveled back to Dallas for an urgent meeting with FAPA.

Weeks ago, the company approached SWAPA for ideas on how to complete the F9 transaction with our pilots’ support. We expressed our concerns about legislation and the resulting effect on pilot seniority at Southwest. The company came up with the “labor contingency clause” requiring labor agreements in place prior to the closing of the Frontier acquisition.

In recent days, after the binding offer was made, company bankruptcy lawyers expressed fears that our bid would be removed from consideration or not considered valid as long as it contained this essential labor clause. These fears came both from the judge’s feelings and the F9 creditor’s committee.

Tuesday night, after talks with the company, they expressed that if they were going to go through with their bid process, they would have to either remove the labor contingency clause or revoke their offer entirely by midnight Wednesday, as the auction for F9 opens Thursday.

Your M&A committee firmly took the stance that any bid from Southwest that excluded the labor contingency clause had the potential for extreme harm to our pilot group. The company said that if FAPA would support the labor contingency clause, the bankers, lawyers and creditors would then consider the bid a valid one.

To that end, we made contact with FAPA yesterday morning to let them know that the company had grave concerns about the validity of their bid and would withdraw from the auction if we did not have a deal by midnight. The M&A committee was in DC this past week, meeting with our lawyers. This left the committee with only hours to fly to Dallas, meet with FAPA via conference call, and negotiate a resolution to our SLI.

We felt that, considering the time constraints, the only way to adequately protect our entire pilot group was to place the FAPA pilots below the SWAPA pilots on our new Master Seniority List.

FAPA’s concerns are:

• Job Protection
• Seat Protection
• Pay Protection
• Domicile Protection

We are still in the middle of negotiations and the situation is very fluid. FAPA’s position was a relative seniority position with a “Variable” for the ratio.

Your M&A committee made it very clear that honoring all of those goals would be a windfall for FAPA pilots.

Understanding the need for a quick resolution prior to midnight, the company offered to pay protect FAPA pilots at SWAPA F/O payrates (or higher FAPA non-concessionary book rates) from the date of closing until all FAPA pilots transition to the SWAPA master list. Their pay would remain (even after transitioning to the SWAPA list) at the greater of their pay protected amount or their seat equivalent pay as spelled out in the SWAPA CBA.

At 10pm, we were still on opposite sides of the table. Southwest then offered to petition the court for an extension this morning with no assurances on the outcome.


Your M&A Committee

 

[BoilerUP]

Something doesn't quite smell right about a company only giving their pilot group 24 hours to secure a mutually-agreeable pilot integration that, supposedly, can make or break the offer.

 

[travrussell]

Here is the deal offered last night, directly from SWAPA,

a staple with;
"....the company offered to pay protect FAPA pilots at SWAPA F/O payrates (or higher FAPA non-concessionary book rates) from the date of closing until all FAPA pilots transition to the SWAPA master list. Their pay would remain (even after transitioning to the SWAPA list) at the greater of their pay protected amount or their seat equivalent pay as spelled out in the SWAPA CBA."

F9 guys, you need to get organized, a few guys in power are trying to cash in and are screwing the majority of you in the process, get involved take action, call your union. This was a great deal, I'm shocked they said no. SWA did the right thing, they took care of their current people and pay protected the new guys. Good luck!

 

[shootr]

The company did not create the deadline. The judge did. He gave SWA until midnight to get rid of the labor agreement clause in their binding bid. SWA then told FAPA/SWAPA "fix it by midnight or the deal is off". After negotiating last night...no deal - SWA asked the judge for an extension for labor to come to an agreement. Still waiting for his answer.

Relative seniority? I've tried to be respectful...but are you frikkin' kidding me? FO's, your CA's are gonna tube this for you.

 

[FlyinPiker]

Why should they get more time?

If Southwest really wanted this they should have put things in play a lot sooner.

Instead they elected to wait until the very last second to submit a bid.

By doing this they are basically trying to force this down everyone's throat. They knew there would be complex details to work out.

Game over.

 

[shootr]

Something else to think about. SWA did not offer to pay protect you because it's the right thing to do. SWA wants to operate F9 seperately and slowly shut it down. SWAPA WANTS you guys here and got SWA to give this extra money up for you! Do you think SWA want to pay 1st year SWA FO's F9 pre-chapter 11 CA rates? SWAPA is your friend in this deal but we are not your fairy grandmother. I still don't believe RAH will beat out SWA. I do think staple with pay protection is the best deal you'll get and it gets much worse from there. We're not better or more deserving in life than you but our management is ruthless and they will stop at nothing to get what they want. Take the bird in hand, for Pete's sake.

shootr

 

[flint4xx]

Laugh all you want but even an imbicible like me can see where this one is going. Congrats to the Frontier guys for playing intelligent hardball.

You crack me up...

 

[FlyinGuy]

If FAPA is holding out for seat protection, maybe SWA can offer the seat but they can keep their current pay and benefits plan! These guys are nuts...they want seat and a pay raise...they are the bankrupt carrier!

 

[b19]

I don't work at SWA, wish I did, but with friends at both places, I'd hate to see this turn ugly.

To my F9 friends whatever deal you are offered at SWA take it, because you will still have a job and a career. Whatever deal you are offered at RAH refuse it, because you WILL have no job and no career in two years, you WILL wind up sinking down the regional toilet.

LET'S AGREE STAPLING SUCKS; NOW WHERE DO YOU WANT TO BE 10, 20 YEARS FROM NOW?

 

[fiel12]

Now, what was the quote from Pulp Fiction..."F$%# pride"?? Can't remember.

"It only hurts, it never helps."

I believe that's the line.

 

[b19]

What he just said, the hell with pride, ego and the left seat, take the career being offered at SWA. I just would like to see my F9 friends flying at SWA for the next 20 or so. Good Luck to all.

 

[Monster Buck]

There is no way that FAPA will let a deal with SWA pass. They would be out of their minds. They are hanging off a cliff with one hand and here is chance to not only be pulled to safety but to live a better life after. BTW falling off the cliff isn't chapter 7 ...its being owned by RAH! Good luck to my friends at Frontier.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Proud of SWAPA. Not one F9 pilot deserves to be senior to one SWAPA pilot....Yes SWA doesn't suck like your airline.

First quote of many that demonstrates a couple things...the arrogance of the SWA pilot group and the ignorance of the law of the land.

F9 pilots have rights, they should defend them.

Yes they do. Legal rights. Its called the Allegheny/Mohawk LPPs and its the LAW OF THE LAND.

Now the door maybe open for a serious consolidation of carriers such as JetBlue, Virgin, Frontier and Spirit.

Guess what? Virgin has already expressed interest in F9's Airbii.

You do realize it's SOUTHWEST AIRLINES trying to give you a job don't you?

Again, SWA arrogance on parade. I can remember a time when it was inconceivable that there could be an airline industry without Pan Am, Eastern, TWA, etc. Things change, pal.

Wow, the SW jerks are coming out of the woodwork.

You noticed that too?

I dont think they are being Jerks. I would love to see the F9 guys at SWA.

"...as long as they're stapled to the bottom of our list." You forgot to add that part.

I feel a small group of senior F9 guys are driving this to the ground.

Wrong. They're just standing up for their LEGAL rights. You buy their airline, you must integrate the seniority list using the Allegheny/Mohawk LPPs. And one of the BIG items in that is NO WINDFALLS.

Placing F9 pilots behind new hire SWA pilots constitutes a huge windfall for junior SWA guys. And there's no argument there.

But seeing what Repubic did to Midwest I am very complexed . JMO

What does this even mean?

Wow, do they teach you guys at SWA the "holier than thou" attitude in training or do you just get hired with that attitude?.

:laugh:

How big was SWA when they bought Morris? How big are you guys now?

As all those financial disclosures say, "Past performance is not indicative of future results".

Exactly right. Past growth cannot be extrapolated into the future.

Disagree. They will force arbitration and get seat protection and relative seniority to their respective seat. It is Federal Law Mohawk Allegeny. These guys know what they are doing.

Much as I HATE agreeing with anything ID says, he's right about this one. Allegheny/Mohawk precludes windfalls. Now you might toss the "career expectations" card on the table, but that is generally understood to mean upgrading from narrowbody to widebody equipment. That is a nonstarter in this case because both airlines are narrowbody operators.

Here's the ONLY fair way to integrate these two carriers that complies with current Federal Law:

1. No bump, no flush.
2. All SWA pilots hired before the startup date of the current airline known as Frontier are protected.
3. The rest of the F9 and SWA pilots are ratioed together based on the number of remaining pilots.

Period, end of story.

Flame away.

 

[fiel12]

and we have a superior product.

Well, I guess everyone is entitled to their opinion.

 

[canyonblue737]

The offer is to pay protect at SWA FO rates from day 1 even before they come over to WN. I am a 5 year FO at SWA and make more than CAs at F9. IMHO that is a crazy good offer, every pilot at F9 will get a raise (and in some cases a big one) on the very first day. I wish there was an answer where everyone is happy but there isn't, don't let pride cause you to lose an opportunity that will pay off in the long run compared to the alternatives.

 

[b19]

Something else to think about. SWA did not offer to pay protect you because it's the right thing to do. SWA wants to operate F9 seperately and slowly shut it down. SWAPA WANTS you guys here and got SWA to give this extra money up for you! Do you think SWA want to pay 1st year SWA FO's F9 pre-chapter 11 CA rates? SWAPA is your friend in this deal but we are not your fairy grandmother. I still don't believe RAH will beat out SWA. I do think staple with pay protection is the best deal you'll get and it gets much worse from there. We're not better or more deserving in life than you but our management is ruthless and they will stop at nothing to get what they want. Take the bird in hand, for Pete's sake.

shootr

SHOOTR just summed this whole thing up.

Right seat at SWA is better than left seat and eventually no seat in the regionals. Take this deal while you can still get it. Three years from now, how do you explain to your kids you turned down a job from SWA, and sorry you don't have the money to pay for their college!

The things I regret most are the opportunities I missed.

 

[walkthasky]

...

Wow, I would be pissed if my senior captains said to staple me and they will be integrated....wow! I could see if Frontier was doing well, in the black, and prosperous with a hostile takeover looming over them. BUT, they are in bankruptcy with option B to work for a regional ? I surely hope the Frontier guys are waking up this morning calling there union and saying "WTF" ? On a side note, we have been cautiously optimistic about our culture here at SWA. I think most of us are happy to see GK stick to his word about labor agreement requirements prior to an acquisition.

Good luck to us all

 

[spiffomatic]

What's funny is that pride and ego go both ways...

SWA guys, a few questions...
- if stapling is the fair and equitable thing to do, then do you think that's what would happen in arbitration?
- wouldn't stapling produce windfall benefits for your junior FOs?
- why are you so eager to show F9 pilots "the light"?
- comparisons are made to the great situation the morris pilots are in. isn't that more apples and oranges than AA/TWA is to this? do you really think that, given future growth, and the age of your pilot group, the opportunities will be the same for F9 pilots?
- you're trying to buy a chance in DEN. you haven't been able to have much success there otherwise... doesn't that mean that F9 brings something substantial to the table?
- you have such a high degree of pride in your business model and work ethic. why would you not recognize the pride and work ethic that F9 people have put into operating a great airline? a staple to the bottom of your list, and disinterest in any creativity F9 has brought to the airline game imply a lack of respect for their effective efforts and the hometown loyalty they produced.
- you seem to think the unending growth and prosperity are a cast iron fact at SWA just as regional type payrates are written in stone at RAH. do you really think that either is going to remain stationary? do you believe that F9's and RAH's current profit, RAH's transition to larger aircraft, Midwest's in-process integration and their experience in pushing for strong pay and workrules, F9's likely amicable integration, plus a long-overdue new contract will not produce drastic improvements in work and pay over the mid to long term?

As I've said, good luck to the F9 pilots either way. You guys/girls are an excellent pilot group, as are SWA pilots that I've met personally - message boards seem to have a significant ego-swelling side effect. But a staple, IMO is a disservice to F9.

 

[OurMoney1]

Disagree. They will force arbitration and get seat protection and relative seniority to their respective seat. It is Federal Law Mohawk Allegeny. These guys know what they are doing.

Gary and SWAPA have said there wont be an arbitration. Either dance or dont......

Dont hang your hat on another bogus ruling.

This will go to Republic before it goes to an independent party.

 

[WildcatFan]

Everyone is missing the 800lb gorilla in the room. While A/M law requires an integration that is "fair and equitable" in the event of a merger, it does NOT grant a RIGHT TO EMPLOYMENT or the requirement to employ everyone indefinetely.

Think about what that means and the situation here.

Yes, under A/M you CAN acquire instead of merge and then dismantle. Nothing in the law requires it. SWA has enough capacity to fly the f9 schedule right now with no airbuses at all. In fact, SWA is now better off in that they can now say "well we tried" and then shut it down and grow internally, interviewing as they always have.

 

[shootr]

Here's the difference between FAPA's and SWAPA's "hardline" stances...

SWAPA - NOTHING to lose is no deal worked out

FAPA - EVERYTHING to lose if no deal worked out

If you don't want to go to RAH and you don't want SWA to buy you and then draw you down to nothing, get your union to work it out. If you don't want to work for SWA, let your union continue as it is. Perhaps these are all valid choices but make no mistake, these are your choices. SWAPA still has section 6 to worry about and it's only a matter of time before SWAPA see's the company light and let's them buy F9 WITHOUT merging the lists.

shootr

 

[BoilerUP]

SWA has enough capacity to fly the f9 schedule right now with no airbuses at all.

Really?

SWA can find another 50+ airplanes worth of utilization out of their current fleet...today?

 

[RiteSideUp]

.... SWA has enough capacity to fly the f9 schedule right now with no airbuses at all.

This is the scary part - staple all of the f9 guys and furlough all of em. Here's your number and here is the number for the unemployment line...... I am starting to wonder if this is the real goal of swapa.

 

[shootr]

Do we have the A/C capacity to fly F9's schedule right now with what we have? Yes, it would be a no brainer.

 

[Dash Power]

This has become quite simple. Southwest can still buy F9's assets. Southwest can slowly grow their presence in DEN while slowly downsizing its other airline, F9.

There are many "law" experts on this board. But there is no law that protects the jobs of a "division" that is drawn down.

Allegheny/Mohawk plainly does not apply. McCaskill/Bond only applies if you merge the acquired airline into the controlling airline. (AA/TWA) If AA operated TWA separately, they could have drawn down TWA to extinction. In their case that would have been a huge waste of money. A merging of operations was AA's intent from the beginning.

This is a different situation all together. I applaud FAPA for doing what they think is best for their membership. It is an apparent risk to their current positions and compensation, but this whole profession has become a crap shoot.

Best of luck to us all.

 

[Richard Gozinya]

A couple of things that are happening here..........

1. That great, big sigh you are hearing is the collective voices of the 200 guys in the pool that just dodged a bullet, and the 350, or so, FO's at F9 that just lost a job at a major........and are headed down to a regional.

2. If GK holds this position, and doesn't allow this deal to go through without the pilots, has just gained a huge amount of good will from a suddenly unified pilot group.

3. The battle lines are being drawn in DIA, and we don't loose those. Of course, neither does the headshed at Republic. Remember these guys will sell their collective souls to the devil to win a buck. They have already proved that with how they operated the Midwest deal.

IT'S ON!

Dick

 

[airlinepilot]

Can't find this anywhere else but here

Our union just sent this communication release:

Fellow Pilots,
Southwest Airlines made SWAPA aware of their intent to withdraw their bid to purchase Frontier Holdings if an agreement between SWAPA and FAPA could not be reached by midnight, EST on the 12th. Tonight SWAPA has reached an impasse with the Frontier Airline Pilots’ Association. Both parties have bargained all evening under a deadline for resolution for midnight (EST). At the deadline, neither party was willing to accept the other’s proposal. Southwest Airlines will petition the bankruptcy court for an extension on the Company’s final bid for Frontier tomorrow morning.
For the record, our standing position is to place all FAPA pilots at the bottom of the Southwest Master Pilot Seniority List and they remained committed to relative seniority integration; thus the impasse.
SWAPA Communications Committee




Unless the judge ok's the extension, looks like F9 will be intergrating a commuter airline.

I think this is a BS post. Looked on SWAPA web site and cannot find anything about it. Also no email alert from SWAPA or the Merger adn Acquisition Committee which has been keeping us in the loop with email alerts and info.....Let's see some proof