SWA / Frontier Deal Off For Now!

[spiffomatic]

What's funny is that pride and ego go both ways...

SWA guys, a few questions...
- if stapling is the fair and equitable thing to do, then do you think that's what would happen in arbitration?
- wouldn't stapling produce windfall benefits for your junior FOs?
- why are you so eager to show F9 pilots "the light"?
- comparisons are made to the great situation the morris pilots are in. isn't that more apples and oranges than AA/TWA is to this? do you really think that, given future growth, and the age of your pilot group, the opportunities will be the same for F9 pilots?
- you're trying to buy a chance in DEN. you haven't been able to have much success there otherwise... doesn't that mean that F9 brings something substantial to the table?
- you have such a high degree of pride in your business model and work ethic. why would you not recognize the pride and work ethic that F9 people have put into operating a great airline? a staple to the bottom of your list, and disinterest in any creativity F9 has brought to the airline game imply a lack of respect for their effective efforts and the hometown loyalty they produced.
- you seem to think the unending growth and prosperity are a cast iron fact at SWA just as regional type payrates are written in stone at RAH. do you really think that either is going to remain stationary? do you believe that F9's and RAH's current profit, RAH's transition to larger aircraft, Midwest's in-process integration and their experience in pushing for strong pay and workrules, F9's likely amicable integration, plus a long-overdue new contract will not produce drastic improvements in work and pay over the mid to long term?

As I've said, good luck to the F9 pilots either way. You guys/girls are an excellent pilot group, as are SWA pilots that I've met personally - message boards seem to have a significant ego-swelling side effect. But a staple, IMO is a disservice to F9.

 

[OurMoney1]

Disagree. They will force arbitration and get seat protection and relative seniority to their respective seat. It is Federal Law Mohawk Allegeny. These guys know what they are doing.

Gary and SWAPA have said there wont be an arbitration. Either dance or dont......

Dont hang your hat on another bogus ruling.

This will go to Republic before it goes to an independent party.

 

[WildcatFan]

Everyone is missing the 800lb gorilla in the room. While A/M law requires an integration that is "fair and equitable" in the event of a merger, it does NOT grant a RIGHT TO EMPLOYMENT or the requirement to employ everyone indefinetely.

Think about what that means and the situation here.

Yes, under A/M you CAN acquire instead of merge and then dismantle. Nothing in the law requires it. SWA has enough capacity to fly the f9 schedule right now with no airbuses at all. In fact, SWA is now better off in that they can now say "well we tried" and then shut it down and grow internally, interviewing as they always have.

 

[shootr]

Here's the difference between FAPA's and SWAPA's "hardline" stances...

SWAPA - NOTHING to lose is no deal worked out

FAPA - EVERYTHING to lose if no deal worked out

If you don't want to go to RAH and you don't want SWA to buy you and then draw you down to nothing, get your union to work it out. If you don't want to work for SWA, let your union continue as it is. Perhaps these are all valid choices but make no mistake, these are your choices. SWAPA still has section 6 to worry about and it's only a matter of time before SWAPA see's the company light and let's them buy F9 WITHOUT merging the lists.

shootr

 

[BoilerUP]

SWA has enough capacity to fly the f9 schedule right now with no airbuses at all.

Really?

SWA can find another 50+ airplanes worth of utilization out of their current fleet...today?

 

[RiteSideUp]

.... SWA has enough capacity to fly the f9 schedule right now with no airbuses at all.

This is the scary part - staple all of the f9 guys and furlough all of em. Here's your number and here is the number for the unemployment line...... I am starting to wonder if this is the real goal of swapa.

 

[shootr]

Do we have the A/C capacity to fly F9's schedule right now with what we have? Yes, it would be a no brainer.

 

[Dash Power]

This has become quite simple. Southwest can still buy F9's assets. Southwest can slowly grow their presence in DEN while slowly downsizing its other airline, F9.

There are many "law" experts on this board. But there is no law that protects the jobs of a "division" that is drawn down.

Allegheny/Mohawk plainly does not apply. McCaskill/Bond only applies if you merge the acquired airline into the controlling airline. (AA/TWA) If AA operated TWA separately, they could have drawn down TWA to extinction. In their case that would have been a huge waste of money. A merging of operations was AA's intent from the beginning.

This is a different situation all together. I applaud FAPA for doing what they think is best for their membership. It is an apparent risk to their current positions and compensation, but this whole profession has become a crap shoot.

Best of luck to us all.

 

[Richard Gozinya]

A couple of things that are happening here..........

1. That great, big sigh you are hearing is the collective voices of the 200 guys in the pool that just dodged a bullet, and the 350, or so, FO's at F9 that just lost a job at a major........and are headed down to a regional.

2. If GK holds this position, and doesn't allow this deal to go through without the pilots, has just gained a huge amount of good will from a suddenly unified pilot group.

3. The battle lines are being drawn in DIA, and we don't loose those. Of course, neither does the headshed at Republic. Remember these guys will sell their collective souls to the devil to win a buck. They have already proved that with how they operated the Midwest deal.

IT'S ON!

Dick

 

[airlinepilot]

Can't find this anywhere else but here

Our union just sent this communication release:

Fellow Pilots,
Southwest Airlines made SWAPA aware of their intent to withdraw their bid to purchase Frontier Holdings if an agreement between SWAPA and FAPA could not be reached by midnight, EST on the 12th. Tonight SWAPA has reached an impasse with the Frontier Airline Pilots’ Association. Both parties have bargained all evening under a deadline for resolution for midnight (EST). At the deadline, neither party was willing to accept the other’s proposal. Southwest Airlines will petition the bankruptcy court for an extension on the Company’s final bid for Frontier tomorrow morning.
For the record, our standing position is to place all FAPA pilots at the bottom of the Southwest Master Pilot Seniority List and they remained committed to relative seniority integration; thus the impasse.
SWAPA Communications Committee




Unless the judge ok's the extension, looks like F9 will be intergrating a commuter airline.

I think this is a BS post. Looked on SWAPA web site and cannot find anything about it. Also no email alert from SWAPA or the Merger adn Acquisition Committee which has been keeping us in the loop with email alerts and info.....Let's see some proof

 

[fiel12]

Just keep in mind that if they are caught using this information as a competitive advantage then Gary Kelly and his Texan buddies go to prison.

Also, after WN management looked at our books and examined our cost structure, they still wanted to proceed with the deal. Our costs (CASM ex-fuel) are lower than theirs, and we have a superior product.

We also have customer loyalty that has been elusive to them in the Denver market.

First quote of many that demonstrates a couple things...the arrogance of the SWA pilot group and the ignorance of the law of the land.



Yes they do. Legal rights. Its called the Allegheny/Mohawk LPPs and its the LAW OF THE LAND.



Guess what? Virgin has already expressed interest in F9's Airbii.



Again, SWA arrogance on parade. I can remember a time when it was inconceivable that there could be an airline industry without Pan Am, Eastern, TWA, etc. Things change, pal.



You noticed that too?



"...as long as they're stapled to the bottom of our list." You forgot to add that part.



Wrong. They're just standing up for their LEGAL rights. You buy their airline, you must integrate the seniority list using the Allegheny/Mohawk LPPs. And one of the BIG items in that is NO WINDFALLS.

Placing F9 pilots behind new hire SWA pilots constitutes a huge windfall for junior SWA guys. And there's no argument there.



What does this even mean?



:laugh:



Exactly right. Past growth cannot be extrapolated into the future.



Much as I HATE agreeing with anything ID says, he's right about this one. Allegheny/Mohawk precludes windfalls. Now you might toss the "career expectations" card on the table, but that is generally understood to mean upgrading from narrowbody to widebody equipment. That is a nonstarter in this case because both airlines are narrowbody operators.

Here's the ONLY fair way to integrate these two carriers that complies with current Federal Law:

1. No bump, no flush.
2. All SWA pilots hired before the startup date of the current airline known as Frontier are protected.
3. The rest of the F9 and SWA pilots are ratioed together based on the number of remaining pilots.

Period, end of story.

Flame away.

For the 1,000,000,000th time, if WN doesn't purchase F9 there is no A/H B/M. You can't impose those laws if there is no acquisition. F9 goes to RAH. If FAPA agrees to a staple, that would be binding. There would be no arbitration, and the A/H and B/M would be satisfied because FAPA agreed to the terms. SWAPA offered a staple with pay protection. FAPA said no. Because of that, SWA may retract their bid to buy F9. If FAPA agrees to SWAPA's offer then read my 4th and 5th sentence. If FAPA doesn't agree to SWAPA's offer then WN says they will retract their bid and my first sentence will apply. FAPA can either accept SWAPA's offer or try their chances with RAH.

Get it?

 

[GuppyWN]

My .02 - again.

The haters keep saying SWA guys are arrogant because we want a staple. We quit our jobs to come to SWA to EARN our seniority. F9 is bankrupt and has been promised a job and AT LEAST pay protection - or a raise.

Windfall - A captains seat at SWA for F9 dudes? Talk about a windfall! No way no how. You could have quit F9 years ago and hired on at SWA. You chose not to. I'm OK with that.

If the deal blows up then so be it. The FAPA guys think they can do better at RAH then SWA. Maybe they can, maybe they can't.

I know if I was still at F9 I'd be pissed as hell to get stapled but at the end of the day I would be REALLY REALLY REALLY happy that I got "hired" at SWA without interviewing and can look my family in the eyes and feel some security.

Good luck to all. I mean it.
Gup

 

[shootr]

It's real and it's in the F9 folder on the SWAPA forum.

 

[Dash Power]

I think this is a BS post. Looked on SWAPA web site and cannot find anything about it. Also no email alert from SWAPA or the Merger adn Acquisition Committee which has been keeping us in the loop with email alerts and info.....Let's see some proof

Go to the SWAPA forum, open the Frontier folder at the top, the very top thread is right there.

Its real my friend.

 

[Porch]

Staple or RAH? NO brainer. Take the dang staple at WN... Please!

 

[GuppyWN]

BTW,

My biggest concern is now the gloves will come off.

Gary Kelly tried to "save the hometown airline." There may be a real chance of the buy and fold option coming soon.

Hope not,
Gup

 

[Fubijaakr]

For the 1,000,000,000th time, if WN doesn't purchase F9 there is no A/H B/M. Get it?

I get it. But, if you DO buy F9, Allegheny/Mohawk applies. Period, end of story.

The haters keep saying SWA guys are arrogant because we want a staple.

You are correct. You want to staple guys, you're engaging in a seat grab. That is, by definition, arrogant.

Windfall - A captains seat at SWA for F9 dudes? Talk about a windfall! No way no how.

If you buy and staple them, you're essentially grabbing THEIR left seats. And that's NOT a windfall? GMAFB!

You could have quit F9 years ago and hired on at SWA. You chose not to. I'm OK with that.

And YOU could have stayed there. Today you'd be 10 years senior. Breaks of aviation, pal. You never know the consequences of the choices you make. My next interview was with UPS, but I passed. Sure wish I had done it now.

So, what's the point? Just because you jumped ship early you think you're better than an F9 guy who was loyal? You think YOU deserve HIS left seat? Yeah, I'd say that's pretty arrogant.

 

[GuppyWN]

So, what's the point? Just because you jumped ship early you think you're better than an F9 guy who was loyal? You think YOU deserve HIS left seat? Yeah, I'd say that's pretty arrogant.

Well...... yes. Call me a pr!ck I guess.

Gup

 

[Quiet Flight]

A/M & B/M don't apply in this situation. Period.

 

[General Lee]

I think Gary Kelly will be calling SWAPA this afternoon and saying "hey guys, ummmmm, any chance.......ummmm.....you can....ummmmm give them a better....ummmm....deal? We'd really like to be the largest by far in DEN, and this will cost me my bonus......"

This was either the DUMBEST move ever by FAPA, or the SMARTEST. And, if Republic owns F9 at the end of the day, then SWA may regret it. It is allowing another fish into the pond, and that fish will be growing. Morris Air was different, since it was 2 years old. F9 is not the same. You SWA guys should know that, and quit being so cocky. We didn't staple the Pan Am guys at DL while they were going down and we purchased some of their assets, and our financials back then were better than SWA's today.


Bye Bye--General Lee