SWA delaying new planes, adding used Westjet birds --article

[General Lee]

Howie,

Please explain why ZERO AT Capts were "allowed" to stay on the 737 in the left seat. They brought plenty to the table, along with options. That never would have happened in arbitration. When DL and NWA merged, FNWA 757 Capts stayed on their equipment. In fact, DL trained every FNWA 757 pilot on the 767, allowing each to do touch and goes at places like Duluth and Grand Rapids. It cost money, but DL trusted those guys could handle it, and adopt DL procedures. Why wasn't that the case with you guys, and what was your own personal opinion on the matter?


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Tripower455]

Howie,

Please explain why ZERO AT Capts were "allowed" to stay on the 737 in the left seat. They brought plenty to the table, along with options. That never would have happened in arbitration. When DL and NWA merged, FNWA 757 Capts stayed on their equipment. In fact, DL trained every FNWA 757 pilot on the 767, allowing each to do touch and goes at places like Duluth and Grand Rapids. It cost money, but DL trusted those guys could handle it, and adopt DL procedures. Why wasn't that the case with you guys, and what was your own personal opinion on the matter?


Bye Bye---General Lee

It wasn't part of the agreement that all parties agreed to by a wide margin.

 

[HowardBorden]

Howie,

Please explain why ZERO AT Capts were "allowed" to stay on the 737 in the left seat. They brought plenty to the table, along with options. That never would have happened in arbitration. When DL and NWA merged, FNWA 757 Capts stayed on their equipment. In fact, DL trained every FNWA 757 pilot on the 767, allowing each to do touch and goes at places like Duluth and Grand Rapids. It cost money, but DL trusted those guys could handle it, and adopt DL procedures. Why wasn't that the case with you guys, and what was your own personal opinion on the matter?

I could care less how NWA and Delta did it, that simply is not the point. The only point I am trying to make is that you lied when you said this: "But, zero arbitration awards have NOT included Capt slots at BOTH sides, especially when both bring current planes or orders to the table."

My opinion on the matter is irrelevant, an AIP was produced and voted on. It passed with 87% on both sides. And Lord knows your opinion can be totally disregarded since you don't work for either of the airlines involved in this acquisition. So, I will ask you one last time to admit that you either lied or were misinformed when you made the highlighted statement. It is simply no longer worth my time to point out this inaccuracy. Man up and own the lie or just drop it.

 

[General Lee]

It wasn't part of the agreement that all parties agreed to by a wide margin.

Ahahahahaha. We ALL know there is a lot more to the story. Come on now...


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

I could care less how NWA and Delta did it, that simply is not the point. The only point I am trying to make is that you lied when you said this: "But, zero arbitration awards have NOT included Capt slots at BOTH sides, especially when both bring current planes or orders to the table."

My opinion on the matter is irrelevant, an AIP was produced and voted on. It passed with 87% on both sides. And Lord knows your opinion can be totally disregarded since you don't work for either of the airlines involved in this acquisition. So, I will ask you one last time to admit that you either lied or were misinformed when you made the highlighted statement. It is simply no longer worth my time to point out this inaccuracy. Man up and own the lie or just drop it.

You too? You seem to forget one HUGE part of the AT decision. That is why you guys FAIL.

As far as my statement goes, can you provide an arbitrated award (not your Morris or Transtar examples that obviously weren't arbitrated) that didn't include some Capt slots on each side? That's my point----hasn't happened, unless you can prove it. If both sides provide planes that will still be used, there is bound to be a few, at least, Capt slots awarded by an arbitrator. That's why it's an accepted practice, for ALMOST every merger..... Don't try to get around this, find me proof, or YOU are wrong. Even the TWA guys got MD80 and 757 Capt slots in STL with their merger. They flew BOTH types. Get it yet Howie? Why not 737 left seat for the AT guys? Don't sidestep! Love the part by the way of you saying your opinion is irrelevant..... Well, if you think so.... I'm starting to agree.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[HowardBorden]

As far as my statement goes, can you provide an arbitrated award (not your Morris or Transtar examples that obviously weren't arbitrated) that didn't include some Capt slots on each side? That's my point----hasn't happened, unless you can prove it.

Well, Gennie I have to admit I misjudged you. I was assuming all along you were lying but it turns out you are just woefully misinformed! Feel free to research the Chautauqua/Shuttle America Arbitration Opinion and Award by Richard Kasher, October 19, 2005. Please feel free to admit that your statement was wrong after you brush up on it. I can only assume that now that the error has been pointed out you will offer your heartfelt apology for the misinformation you have been spreading.

 

[scoreboardII]

Bam!

added for five.

 

[Tripower455]

Ahahahahaha. We ALL know there is a lot more to the story. Come on now...


Bye Bye---General Lee

What part of my post is inaccurate? Either party could've voted no, and gone to arbitration. The vast majority on both sides voted for the agreement we have now and all, apparently, hate.

 

[PCL_128]

Van de Ven is agreeing that he will abide by the new language, not that he HAS to.

Wrong. He never says that he "agrees" that SWA is a successor as defined by our CBA, he merely says that they are. Because he doesn't have to agree. He's bound by it.

Why would VDV mention "unless and until that Agreement is changed pursuant to the Railway Labor Act." Because he does not need to comply with any changes made to the agreement unless he wants to. In other words: if you change something again through a side letter or other provision we will need to look at the changes and decide if we will ADHERE to those changes.

Wrong. He's saying that if there are changes to the Agreement as a result of processes under the RLA, that they will no longer adhere to the Agreement in place at the time of his letter, but would then have to adhere to the new language.

It's simple; SWA had two choices: 1) Adhere to the provisions of our agreement, including the changes that were made through negotiations; or 2) Not go through with the transaction and give up on the acquisition/merger.

That's it. Those were the only choices. Going through with the transaction and not abiding by our CBA, even the new one, was not a legal option. Really, you should talk to an RLA attorney before you continue to make a fool of yourself.

 

[HowardBorden]

Wrong. He never says that he "agrees" that SWA is a successor as defined by our CBA, he merely says that they are. Because he doesn't have to agree. He's bound by it.



Wrong. He's saying that if there are changes to the Agreement as a result of processes under the RLA, that they will no longer adhere to the Agreement in place at the time of his letter, but would then have to adhere to the new language.

It's simple; SWA had two choices: 1) Adhere to the provisions of our agreement, including the changes that were made through negotiations; or 2) Not go through with the transaction and give up on the acquisition/merger.

That's it. Those were the only choices. Going through with the transaction and not abiding by our CBA, even the new one, was not a legal option. Really, you should talk to an RLA attorney before you continue to make a fool of yourself.

You really need to look up the legal definition of "bound" because you are clueless as to what it means.

Definition: Bound-Adj. : placed under a legal or moral restraint or obligation.

The only language SWA was bound to was the language that was on the books at the time the offer to purchase was made. That language was binding. SWA could not legally walk away from the deal over language that was in place at the time the offer was made. Any added language is not binding because SWA was not obligated to abide by it, meaning they could walk away if any language was added that they don't want to abide by. That is exactly what was said in the letter-"unless and until that Agreement is changed pursuant to the Railway Labor Act." Yes, their recourse was walking away from the deal.

 

[General Lee]

Well, Gennie I have to admit I misjudged you. I was assuming all along you were lying but it turns out you are just woefully misinformed! Feel free to research the Chautauqua/Shuttle America Arbitration Opinion and Award by Richard Kasher, October 19, 2005. Please feel free to admit that your statement was wrong after you brush up on it. I can only assume that now that the error has been pointed out you will offer your heartfelt apology for the misinformation you have been spreading.

You sound giddy Howie. You named one that had a "staple", except it didn't follow what I said below your quote, keeping the planes it brought to the table, or one bringing the same type planes. Shuttle America, when absorbed FOR IT'S CERTIFICATE, had Dash-8-300s I believe, and they weren't kept at Chautauqua, unlike the current AT 737s at your place. Good try Howie, you still can't do it, and your own "irrelevant" opinion is also still absent. Oh well, it was expected.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[PCL_128]

Yes, their recourse was walking away from the deal.

So after all of you're blabbering, you basically admit that you were wrong. Finally! Yes, SWA's only recourse was to back out of the deal. Otherwise, they had to follow our new contract. I'm glad you finally figured it out.

 

[madjack]

Otherwise, they had to follow our new contract

Why wouldn't they? after all SWA got you the contract...your welcome tool

 

[HowardBorden]

So after all of you're blabbering, you basically admit that you were wrong. Finally! Yes, SWA's only recourse was to back out of the deal. Otherwise, they had to follow our new contract. I'm glad you finally figured it out.

Listen Tool, I'll try and make this as simple as possible. You have stated over and over again that SWA is legally obligated to follow any language changes added to a document after an offer to purchase was made. You are completely WRONG! The ONLY language a purchasing entity is BOUND to (a word you are so fond of using incorrectly) is that which was present during the original offer to purchase. That is the only language that cannot be walked away from without legal recourse. The letter you posted showed exactly that. SWA said we have reviewed the language changes made and will agree to abide by the new language unless and until you alter it again. Get it yet? You simply are not allowed to significantly alter the product including things such as: assets, cash reserves, LABOR CONTRACTS etc. and bind the purchaser to the agreement. Have I made it simple enough for your twelfth grade education to comprehend?

 

[HowardBorden]

You sound giddy Howie. You named one that had a "staple", except it didn't follow what I said below your quote, keeping the planes it brought to the table, or one bringing the same type planes. Shuttle America, when absorbed FOR IT'S CERTIFICATE, had Dash-8-300s I believe, and they weren't kept at Chautauqua, unlike the current AT 737s at your place. Good try Howie, you still can't do it, and your own "irrelevant" opinion is also still absent. Oh well, it was expected.



Bye Bye---General Lee

Yep it was expected, I never expected you to man up and admit you we're very clearly proven wrong.

"But, zero arbitration awards have NOT included Capt slots at BOTH sides"

"As far as my statement goes, can you provide an arbitrated award (not your Morris or Transtar examples that obviously weren't arbitrated) that didn't include some Capt slots on each side? That's my point----hasn't happened, unless you can prove it."

 

[redflyer65]

Howard,

You can't get past the hardline ALPA methodology when talking with PCL.

In his world, Airtran should have gotten close to DOH, kept every seat, had plenty of Southwest guys behind them, upgraded immediately to the SWAPA contract (you know, the same SWAPA he can't stand) and had base fences....just for Airtran of course.

So basically, he thought it was fair to keep everything they had...then just add the far better SWAPA contract to the equation. Oh, and that Southwest management was painted into a corner with the whole deal.

Talk about off the ranch and unrealistic.

 

[scoreboardII]

At ATN, approx. 95% of our trips are commutable on both ends.
.

Y'all need to drop this dream, SWA owns the schedule and once de-hubbed, commutables will be few and far between.

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

No, what he expected was a ratio that would have worked out to DOH + several years for the AAI pilots because that's what it would have taken to equalize the junior most Capts on both sides and that's what arbitrators basically always do (minus Shuttle America). Their only goal is to ensure the acquiring company doesn't take it in the shorts with training and relocation costs.

 

[27 driver]

Y'all need to drop this dream, SWA owns the schedule and once de-hubbed, commutables will be few and far between.

Do you guys like un-commutable schedules? Is that something SWAPA wanted or is it a management thing. Do most of SWAPA guys live in base?

 

[GoodTimes]

Good question 27. Everytime I've asked I've gotten the old "it'll never happen because that's how we've always done it" response. Maddening sometimes!

 

[scoreboardII]

Do you guys like un-commutable schedules? Is that something SWAPA wanted or is it a management thing. Do most of SWAPA guys live in base?

If you consider the non hub operation, its just a fact of life. With hubs, everyone flows in, and then the last wave of flights all depart to outstations at about the same time. With pt to pt service, the last flight to XYZ may be at 2PM.

It's not a prime scheduling demand by the pilots, even though 50 percent commute. It's already assumed you lose the day before to an AM or day after on a PM.

Lets put it this way, to get more commutables, we would have to give something for it, like a plane change, so last crew out can take it, and then you can make a commute. I'm not in favor of any more plane changes.

 

[PCL_128]

Listen Tool, I'll try and make this as simple as possible. You have stated over and over again that SWA is legally obligated to follow any language changes added to a document after an offer to purchase was made. You are completely WRONG! The ONLY language a purchasing entity is BOUND to (a word you are so fond of using incorrectly) is that which was present during the original offer to purchase. That is the only language that cannot be walked away from without legal recourse. The letter you posted showed exactly that. SWA said we have reviewed the language changes made and will agree to abide by the new language unless and until you alter it again. Get it yet? You simply are not allowed to significantly alter the product including things such as: assets, cash reserves, LABOR CONTRACTS etc. and bind the purchaser to the agreement. Have I made it simple enough for your twelfth grade education to comprehend?

Do they let you out of the house by yourself? Without a helmet? Scary.

It's really simple: abide by the new contract language, or no merger. I just wish they would have picked the latter instead.

 

[PCL_128]

In his world, Airtran should have gotten close to DOH

DOH? That was probably a worst case scenario in arbitration. Something between DOH and relative is more likely, leaning to the relative end of the spectrum. Which is why Chase was scared sh!tless of arbitration.

 

[Beechdriver32]

So, PCL, you believed that a relative seniority integration was your worst case scenario? And you actually convinced your fellow pilots that they deserved and should expect that?

I remember my buddy, an AT Capt, said that his union guaranteed that they were assured the SLI would fall between two "goalposts". DOH and relative. And that nothing less would be acceptable, because it was "guaranteed" in arbitration. I assume you helped form that belief.

I am simply baffled by your level of arrogance and incompetence. You continue to set unrealistic expectations and are upset when they don't come to reality.

Simply amazing. And worst is you have no real idea the actual harm you have done to your fellow pilots.

My friend could have SWA captain pay starting April 1, flying a 717. With a capt retention slot. And a 10 year fence around ATL. Never have to fly a FO seat again. And sir, you convinced him that it was not enough.

Amazing.

 

[scoreboardII]

Bam!

added for five

 

[PCL_128]

So, PCL, you believed that a relative seniority integration was your worst case scenario?

No, I said that DOH was likely our worst case scenario. Relative was likely best case scenario. Read for comprehension next time.

And you actually convinced your fellow pilots that they deserved and should expect that?

Obviously not, based upon the vote.

 

[Beechdriver32]

Ok, got me. It was late, and I mis-wrote. DOH with seat protection was the worst case according to my bud. You sure up some amazing expectations for your buddies.

Also, you claim that the 'vote' proved that your fellow pilots were not along your school of thought. But your pilots were not even given the opportunity to vote on the first offer. Figure loss of captain seat, your current pay, and reupgrade who knows when vs current SWA pay for every AT pilot. That's upwards half a million for my bud, and current SWA pay for every FO, even those on your side of the partition.

You and ALPA by proxy, cost your pilots a lot of money yet you don't seem to see that. Or worse, don't care.

Scary.

 

[maxblast72]

Also, you claim that the 'vote' proved that your fellow pilots were not along your school of thought. But your pilots were not even given the opportunity to vote on the first offer. Figure loss of captain seat, your current pay, and reupgrade who knows when vs current SWA pay for every AT pilot. That's upwards half a million for my bud, and current SWA pay for every FO, even those on your side of the partition.

You and ALPA by proxy, cost your pilots a lot of money yet you don't seem to see that. Or worse, don't care.

Oh, PCL128 luvs it. He gets pulled off a trip this month or next, gets ALPA to pay for a trip to NYC, and gets to hang out with lawyers for a few days and talk about his actions in the summer of 2011. He never did like flying

 

[canyonblue]

No, I said that DOH was likely our worst case scenario. Relative was likely best case scenario.

You never even came close to your "worst case scenario", did you fill out your AirTran application with a crayon?

 

[DonVerita]

If the average AirTran line pays 80 hours (I'm guessing here), and the average Southwest line pays 100 TFP (I'm NOT guessing here), then APC's computed "hourly" comparison doesn't mean jack squat.

Bubba

Just for the sake of argument, assuming your 80/100 comparison is correct, the next question to ask is -- how much work did the SWA pilot have to put in to achieve the 100 TFP and how much work did the AirTran pilot have to put in for the 80 BLOCK? If I have to fly say 3 legs average per day to achieve X while you have to fly 5 legs average per day to achieve Y, then even though you might at the end of the month come out with a higher credit hour number, you had to work a lot harder for it. We both have trip and duty rigs, so when it comes down to it, TFP converted to hourly BLOCK rate is the only concrete comparison. Everything else is subjective and may work as an added benefit depending on various factors.