SWA delaying new planes, adding used Westjet birds --article

[canyonblue]

It's really comical watching the Herb Turds get all defensive and jump on some anecdotal story about a Delta guy when trying to defend their seniority cramdown the throats of the AirTran guys.

Now that it's over they sing Kumbayahh like it never happened......

Hypocrites.

And it's really comical watching a Delta guy say anything on this board. Your past practices, from both a business and pilot perspective, do not even give you the ability to dictate anything to another pilot. It's like the Germans after WW2, just shut up and the rest of us will let you know when you can offer any input.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Well THAT made sense....

Really? Germans?

"Forget it, he's rolling..."

 

[Ty Webb]

A question was posed and it was answered with a recent factual example. But, because the decision of a neutral arbitrator [on a case that isn't applicable since it involved a company in bankruptcy proceedings, who was operating only a handful of aircraft] does not fit your narrative, you disregard it as inconsequential and trot out the unverifiable musings from a retired Delta pilot; all while having the audacity to claim that the neutral arbitrator's decision is irrelevant. Classic.

There, I fixed it for you.

 

[redflyer65]

The latest arbitor ruling in this very acquisition prove that the panel does consider one company to be more stable with higher career expectations.

PCL tries to come on here and say 'other labor' groups don't matter. Talk about spin.

Ty,

All you have to do is review the latest findings for other AAI/SW labor groups. Who cares about Shuttle America when you have info more relevant between the two ACTUAL workgroups?

 

[HowardBorden]

Who cares about Shuttle America when you have info more relevant between the two ACTUAL workgroups?

I could care less about Shuttle America, however when the beloved General made a statement inferring that never in history had a neutral arbitrator made a judgement where all captains lost their seats, I simply pointed out that he was incorrect. I am in complete agreement that one can draw much more valid conclusions from how arbitrators have ruled in this exact situation involving different work groups.

 

[Ty Webb]

Sorry, Red, but PCL is right. Due to the issue of upgrade, Pilot seniority is completely different. There's nothing there to argue about.

 

[Ty Webb]

I think my comparison of how the Checker's/Carl Junior merger played out was probably just as relevant.

 

[redflyer65]

Sorry, Red, but PCL is right. Due to the issue of upgrade, Pilot seniority is completely different. There's nothing there to argue about.

Ty,

The issue of seniority is exactly the same in all work groups. If the seniority would have been applied accordingly to the pilots....the Upgrades (part of your arguement) would have fallen wherever the seniority held it. Unless there were fences to help your side. Which I would have been in favor of.

An arbitrated list would have been similiar to what we have now (+/-) either way. Most AAI CA's would have held their seat (possibly more with fences) and those few junior AAI CA's might have been senior FO's. You guys mostly lost out on the immediate payraise and obviously being booted out of the left seat. All which would have not happened with the first agreement.

 

[Ty Webb]

Ty,

The issue of seniority is exactly the same in all work groups. If the seniority would have been applied accordingly to the pilots....the Upgrades (part of your arguement) would have fallen wherever the seniority held it. Unless there were fences to help your side. Which I would have been in favor of.

An arbitrated list would have been similiar to what we have now (+/-) either way. Most AAI CA's would have held their seat (possibly more with fences) and those few junior AAI CA's might have been senior FO's. You guys mostly lost out on the immediate payraise and obviously being booted out of the left seat. All which would have not happened with the first agreement.

If you really think that you can just set an arbitrary line based upon seniority and not take upgrade into account, I suggest you ask wait until mid-2016 or 2017 and then ask one of your Senior OSW FO's who just missed upgrading into one of the "captured" Captain seats . . . . ask him about the difference between seniority and upgrade.

Btw, under the first agreement, we would have lost those 717 seats. SWAPA was gunning for those seats from the beginning. . . Ask your buddy SC, he'll tell ya.

 

[maxblast72]

Btw, under the first agreement, we would have lost those 717 seats.

Ty, you really need to go re-read Side Letter 9 Paragraph H. You just aren't getting that the Captain Retention Slots did NOT go away if the B717s went away. They were designed specifically for seasonal downgrades and in case the the B717 fleet did not make it to lease expiration. The Merger Committee listened to Gary Kelly's B717 comments on July 14, 2011. The MEC ignored what he said.

 

[Kermit_D_Frog]

But hey, keep making up stupidity. And when you come to this side, please bitch loudly and often while in class. The only group that got the shaft was junior OSW pilots. OAT got a big giant GIFT from GK. I'm sure you'll say it was a big giant something else, but you are wrong.

 

[General Lee]

But hey, keep making up stupidity. And when you come to this side, please bitch loudly and often while in class. The only group that got the shaft was junior OSW pilots. OAT got a big giant GIFT from GK. I'm sure you'll say it was a big giant something else, but you are wrong.

All 3 legacies will be hiring within a year. Hold on, do some LBB and MAF, and then get out of there. Upward advancement will be a lot quicker. Good luck.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[GoodTimes]

GL is right. Why even keep this discussion going? Nothing's going to change. If you don't like the way things have turned out, or you find SWA ain't for you after you come over, then leave. Life's too short.

 

[madjack]

SL 9 would have saved the 5 year tranny CPs seat (ask the 7 year RSW FO how that felt)...but the ATL mob wanted more and didn't give a rats ass about the junior AT CPs (and cared even less about the RSW FOs...)

 

[StopNTSing]

So how big was TWA compared to AA when bought, and why were there TWA Capts that kept their seats in STL on the 757 and MD80? Please give an example of another airline that purchased another and didn't allow one Capt to keep his/her seat.


Bye Bye---General Lee

SWA-Morris Air

SWA-Muse Air (Transtar)

Considering the above history, ATN pilots did exceptionally well.

 

[Ty Webb]

Ty, you really need to go re-read Side Letter 9 Paragraph H. You just aren't getting that the Captain Retention Slots did NOT go away if the B717s went away. They were designed specifically for seasonal downgrades and in case the the B717 fleet did not make it to lease expiration. The Merger Committee listened to Gary Kelly's B717 comments on July 14, 2011. The MEC ignored what he said.

Oh, I "get it". I think I "get it" more than you "get it".

I also "get" that your revisionist rantings on here and our internal forum only serve to make you look more more like a sycophant with Stockholm Syndrome.

 

[madjack]

Insult vs argument

 

[Ty Webb]

Why don't you just send him a thank you card.

 

[Spud]

Ty, you really need to go re-read Side Letter 9 Paragraph H. You just aren't getting that the Captain Retention Slots did NOT go away if the B717s went away. They were designed specifically for seasonal downgrades and in case the the B717 fleet did not make it to lease expiration. The Merger Committee listened to Gary Kelly's B717 comments on July 14, 2011. The MEC ignored what he said.

Do Tell!

 

[maxblast72]

Insult vs argument

That is what they do when they have nothing to back up their point. PCL128 ran into the same thing when he did a good job of helping the AirTran reserve pilots and First Officers secure significant gains in Contract 2010.

 

[scoreboardII]

is that 2010 contract the one after SWA bought them?

 

[texman]

is that 2010 contract the one after SWA bought them?

It was approved after the SWA announcement. SWA didn't have any financial influence on it though. What get's me is from 2010 to now a former AT captain bitching about the pay cut. While I do agree to a extent they do make some what less as a SWA FO (not a SR one though), I just can't see how they can make their personal cost of living go up that much in a two year period. So I don't feel sorry for those who did. Let's not forget the 400 dollar pay raise on the medical insurance.

They must of bought that million dollar house like some of our PHX fo's did! Lol!

 

[humveedriver]

AT pilots gave up the defined contribution to their 401k ( different from 9.5 matching), in return for the reduced medical cost. In theory it was a wash. Personally, it made me invest more in my retirement. So that was a good thing. Sure my take home was less, but I was putting more away. I think you are dead right though Texman. The more folks make, typically the more they spend. It's the guys (on both sides) who don't budget on min guarantee that are squawking.

 

[Ty Webb]

I don't think the AAI guys are bitching about making less, so much as just trying to set the record straight. Many SWA pilots don't understand that it is paycut going from AAI Capt SWA FO. I think guys are just trying to set the record straight.

Me, I don't care about the pay nearly as much as the QOL, but that horse has been flogged enough, too.

 

[texman]

AT pilots gave up the defined contribution to their 401k ( different from 9.5 matching), in return for the reduced medical cost. In theory it was a wash. Personally, it made me invest more in my retirement. So that was a good thing. Sure my take home was less, but I was putting more away. I think you are dead right though Texman. The more folks make, typically the more they spend. It's the guys (on both sides) who don't budget on min guarantee that are squawking.

You are dead on. So I get the pay to cut thing to a extent, but don't feel sorry for those who overspend once a raise is giving. I guess it is human nature.

 

[bluesideup1]

I don't think the AAI guys are bitching about making less, so much as just trying to set the record straight. Many SWA pilots don't understand that it is paycut going from AAI Capt SWA FO. I think guys are just trying to set the record straight.

Me, I don't care about the pay nearly as much as the QOL, but that horse has been flogged enough, too.

Let me get this straight. Every F.O. that crosses the line from AAI to SW gets a huge pay increase, Every captain that comes over makes more, the same or a little less depending on how they can bid. But in the long run every one of AAI pilots will make far more during their career at SW than they could have even dreamed of at AAI and a small few are complaining that they have taken a small hit for a abbreviated period of time? Are you really that short sighted or do you just like to bitch?

 

[Ty Webb]

Yes, for most AAI Captains, it is a pay cut going from AAI Capt to SWA FO. About $10K a year, plus the added cost of commuting to a distant base.

Yes, we should make more eventually, but it comes at a big cost . . . it requires downgrading for 3 or 4 years, then going through being a junior CA again, being on reserve, etc., and slowly regaining a lost decade.

I did all that back in 2004, the first time I upgraded to 737CA. I am currently a 737 CA bidding 52% in seat in ATL. I will regain this same position in 2030 or so, if I decide to keep flying past 60.

 

[ATLplt]

Yes, for most AAI Captains, it is a pay cut going from AAI Capt to SWA FO. About $10K a year, plus the added cost of commuting to a distant base.

Yes, we should make more eventually, but it comes at a big cost . . . it requires downgrading for 3 or 4 years, then going through being a junior CA again, being on reserve, etc., and slowly regaining a lost decade.

I did all that back in 2004, the first time I upgraded to 737CA. I am currently a 737 CA bidding 52% in seat in ATL. I will regain this same position in 2030 or so, if I decide to keep flying past 60.

But, but, but, but, Tyyyyyy.....it's all about the money.

 

[chillidawg]

insult vs argument

done.

 

[waveflyer]

Yes, for most AAI Captains, it is a pay cut going from AAI Capt to SWA FO. About $10K a year, plus the added cost of commuting to a distant base.

Yes, we should make more eventually, but it comes at a big cost . . . it requires downgrading for 3 or 4 years, then going through being a junior CA again, being on reserve, etc., and slowly regaining a lost decade.

I did all that back in 2004, the first time I upgraded to 737CA. I am currently a 737 CA bidding 52% in seat in ATL. I will regain this same position in 2030 or so, if I decide to keep flying past 60.

Yeah, you did- but you did it at air tran- what about the extra 3 years it took me to get the SWA job after air tran offered me their gig as you were upgrading. Does that count for nothing?
We are part of the capitalist system in america aren't we?
Who guaranteed that you could get on with the young growing carrier and none of the risks of doing that (bankruptcy/liquidation- skybus anyone- acquisition) would come true??
Acquisition is a good thing compared to what can happen in this gig- just ask the pilots who got their pension jacked a year or two before they had to retire at 60. And hell, united guys were seeing 3-4 year upgrades less than 5 years before those pensions were stolen.

So you got a quick upgrade- good- who guaranteed you nothing would ever change after that?

The whole bitching deal is very airline immature. I thought I had arrived when I showed up to class at my legacy in 1999. And I can tell you the name of the guy who did guarantee us that we had our last job ever and were all millionaires now. Naive at best in hindsight.
So please- to those of us who have seen the dark side of this industry over generations, you sound like a blubbering idiot bitching about what hardships becoming a SWA pilot is bringing you.
Grab copies of flying the line I &II and Hard landings, then for all happiness sake- count your blessings, not your difficulties real or perceived. By most of your posts Ty, you're too good a dude to get wrapped up in that axle.