SWA crew names released

[madjack]

Older 300s have/had a tendency to spool up assymetrically and if too much power is added in wet conditions the tiller can avert a serious problem before the rudder is effective...

 

[humveedriver]

Older 300s have/had a tendency to spool up assymetrically and if too much power is added in wet conditions the tiller can avert a serious problem before the rudder is effective...

The 500s are worse than the 300s for some reason too. Were the throttles on these planes always so stiff? You have to move them an inch at a time. It's the craziest thing. It seems like the right engine always lags the left, leaving a healthy split at cruise. I'm guessing this is normal for 30 year old airplanes? Just wondering why mx can't make them a little smoother.

 

[Tripower455]

The 500s are worse than the 300s for some reason too. Were the throttles on these planes always so stiff? You have to move them an inch at a time. It's the craziest thing. It seems like the right engine always lags the left, leaving a healthy split at cruise. I'm guessing this is normal for 30 year old airplanes? Just wondering why mx can't make them a little smoother.

And the ATs never work either!

 

[Dan Roman]

Older 300s have/had a tendency to spool up assymetrically and if too much power is added in wet conditions the tiller can avert a serious problem before the rudder is effective...

The correct technique for any jet airplane I have ever flown is to line up on the runway, then add about 10% thrust to ensure symetrical spool up, then select T/O thrust. This technique is especially important on a contaminated runway. There is never any need to go from idle to T/O thrust without this hesitation to ensure both engines have spooled up. In fact, not doing this could simply be a result of a too hurried approach to the taxi and take off portion of the flight.

 

[HowardBorden]

And the ATs never work either!

Yes, they are very slow to respond to that "descend via" clearance.

 

[Blue Dude]

Older 300s have/had a tendency to spool up assymetrically and if too much power is added in wet conditions the tiller can avert a serious problem before the rudder is effective...

So you'd cover up a bad technique (not standing up the throttles to ensure symmetric thrust) with a worse technique (using the tiller for directional control on takeoff roll)? Fascinating. This your first jet or something?

 

[Dan Roman]

I watched many SWA CPs (including Check airman) keep their hand on the tiller until APPROACHING 60 knots on the T/O roll then transition the LH to the yoke....

That doesn't make it right. Sorry, but the simple fact is SWA has a lot more pilots than anywhere else that seem to try and make up time on the ground. We have all seen SWA crews taxiing like they just stole a 737.
A hurry up mindset maybe lends itself to blurring the distinction between taxiing an airplane and taking off an airplane?
You simply don't need the tiller for directional control. The rudder is all you need. Even if you lose an engine, your left hand is on the yoke and your right hand is going to be closing the thrust levers. You are certainly not going to be reaching for the tiller with your left hand once you have closed the thrust levers or even worse, before you have closed the thrust levers. Probably the worst abuse of the tiller would be a Captain that induces tiller input while the F/O is flying?, that could really start some problems.

Again, a hurry up mindset lends itself to trying to hurrying up the takeoff roll, which in turn could lend itself to not taking the extra second to ensure symmetrical power before adding T/O thrust.

 

[Dan Roman]

Also consider that at the low speed part of the takeoff, spool the engines first before adding T/O power, than, using your left hand for forward pressure on the yoke at slower speeds will increase directional control by making the nosewheel more effective for directional control by rudder input. All jets have a little nosewheel steering tied into rudder input and forward pressure increases it's effectiveness at low speeds. The tiller is strictly for taxiing the airplane and the rudder is all you need on the T/O roll

 

[scoreboardII]

That doesn't make it right. Sorry, but the simple fact is SWA has a lot more pilots than anywhere else that seem to try and make up time on the ground. We have all seen SWA crews taxiing like they just stole a 737.
A hurry up mindset maybe lends itself to blurring the distinction between taxiing an airplane and taking off an airplane?
You simply don't need the tiller for directional control. The rudder is all you need. Even if you lose an engine, your left hand is on the yoke and your right hand is going to be closing the thrust levers. You are certainly not going to be reaching for the tiller with your left hand once you have closed the thrust levers or even worse, before you have closed the thrust levers. Probably the worst abuse of the tiller would be a Captain that induces tiller input while the F/O is flying?, that could really start some problems.

Again, a hurry up mindset lends itself to trying to hurrying up the takeoff roll, which in turn could lend itself to not taking the extra second to ensure symmetrical power before adding T/O thrust.

Explain why 30knots in a jet designed to taxi at 30knots is somehow unsafe under the right conditions such as taxiing C to 25R at LAS? Please use small words.

 

[madjack]

Dan, I see your point, and yes my background (big wing landing in small places) does lend itself to anality when it comes to Center Line control, thanks for the explanation...

All I can say about taxiing fast, and its impact on tiller use on T/O is that the company does give us the option (to save fuel) to do a rolling take off and the tiller is helpful to me to get around the corner...

 

[madjack]

"So you'd cover up a bad technique (not standing up the throttles to ensure symmetric thrust"

Not to offend, but I was referring to the case where the other guy is flying and cobs on the power before you can react...thought that was obvious...

 

[SWA Bubba]

That doesn't make it right. Sorry, but the simple fact is SWA has a lot more pilots than anywhere else that seem to try and make up time on the ground. We have all seen SWA crews taxiing like they just stole a 737.
A hurry up mindset maybe lends itself to blurring the distinction between taxiing an airplane and taking off an airplane?
You simply don't need the tiller for directional control. The rudder is all you need. Even if you lose an engine, your left hand is on the yoke and your right hand is going to be closing the thrust levers. You are certainly not going to be reaching for the tiller with your left hand once you have closed the thrust levers or even worse, before you have closed the thrust levers. Probably the worst abuse of the tiller would be a Captain that induces tiller input while the F/O is flying?, that could really start some problems.

Again, a hurry up mindset lends itself to trying to hurrying up the takeoff roll, which in turn could lend itself to not taking the extra second to ensure symmetrical power before adding T/O thrust.

Scoreboard has a point, Dan. What is your fascination with the taxi speed of Southwest jets? You try to tie it to every instance you can, even when it has absolutely no bearing. YOU are the one who started the 20-page thread "Slow down SWA!", blaming "Southwest's ridiculous taxi speeds" for an incident where a guy knocked down a light pole in DEN while swinging around into a parking spot (with one essentially stationary wheel, and the other moving about 3 kts). You don't even wait for a single fact, before you attempt to tie every damn thing to your particular pet peeve.

The fact is, that Southwest has NEVER had an accident or incident that was found to be related to taxi speeds. Never. Our manual says to taxi at a maximum speed of 20 kts in general, or 30 kts on long straight taxiways. And, more importantly, at the bottom of that page, is says "FAA approved." That means that we taxi at FAA-approved speeds.

The fact that a lot of carriers taxi at ridiculously-slow speeds to pad their paychecks (or piss off their employers) has absolutely NO bearing on Southwest operations, or for that matter, what is safe.

Give it a rest. Please.

Bubba

 

[madjack]

"The fact that a lot of carriers taxi at ridiculously-slow speeds to pad their paychecks"

Paid by the hour vs paid by the trip...

 

[Dan Roman]

Explain why 30knots in a jet designed to taxi at 30knots is somehow unsafe under the right conditions such as taxiing C to 25R at LAS? Please use small words.

Ok I'll try...I don't want to use too many pleonasms lest I sound pedantic, erudite or verbose.

Taxiing faster in a straight line is not, by itself always unsafe. But when being in a hurry becomes your norm, it opens the door for incidents like, say......oh I got one! You're cleared for takeoff and you rush on to the runway, cob the power without even waiting to see if you have symmetrical power, which you momentarily don't, and the next thing you know you are all **************************************** and elbows with the rudder pedals or god forbid, you actually are grabbing at the tiller, which in turn can cause all kinds of problems on the T/O roll. Like the Tower Air or CO incident proved.

 

[madjack]

Dan, that is a stretch, taxi speed and overuse/misuse of the tiller on the runway...I think at this level we all know and recognize unsafe taxi speeds and overcontrolling the tiller and avoid doing both...at the end of the day we all have actionable licenses, sounds like ur hating SWA a little...

 

[HowardBorden]

Taxiing faster in a straight line is not, by itself always unsafe. But when being in a hurry becomes your norm, it opens the door for incidents

Dan, do you work for Southwest? Did you used to work for Southwest? Are you regularly on a SWA flight deck? I'm just curious because you routinely refer to this "hurry up mindset." If you aren't in the cockpit how do you know if someone is hurrying. I work there and I simply don't see it often. Of course I have witnessed someone being in a hurry but it certainly isn't the norm, encouraged or happening with any frequency. As a matter of fact the very last guy I flew with specifically stated: "Don't ever let me rush you. If you aren't ready we aren't ready." Trust me, this is very much more the norm than the "hurry up mindset" you are so fond of referring to.

 

[Dan Roman]

Dan, that is a stretch, taxi speed and overuse/misuse of the tiller on the runway...I think at this level we all know and recognize unsafe taxi speeds and overcontrolling the tiller and avoid doing both...at the end of the day we all have actionable licenses, sounds like ur hating SWA a little...

Nope, not all. Just calling it as I see it. The honest fact is Hawaiian has had issues with inter island pilots trying to out qualify you guys. We have managed to morph into a much more standardized operation. This became necessary as we expanded from pilots who spent 30 years flying nothing but inter island DC-9's to an operation of inter- island 717's (they don't tolerate the abuse the old DC-9's did) and International 767 and A330 flying. With the amount of seat changing and growth we have experienced, standardization has become very important. To be fair, your pilots are probably among the best at flying 737's around. Spend 20 years in a single type A/C and you get it wired. Like our inter island pilots. They do multiple legs in all kinds of conditions and as a result they become very comfortable with the airplane. It's real easy to cut corners by speeding or skipping checklists that you know like your social security number.
But we had a few guys back in the 90's that could make the airplane sing and dance if they wanted, but they habitually operated like they were trying to qualify for Indy and this caused a few incidents. The moral being, no matter how good you are with the airplane, rushed flight ops causes problems.

BTW MadJack, hats of to your civility rather than stooping to insults.

Again, I say on here a lot that we all live in glass houses. I don't buy the one airline is better than another crap. The fact is we all started out wanting to be airline pilots and whether you are with SWA DAL HAL OR whoever, we are quite fortunate. The biggest tools in the industry are the ones that think because they fly for, fill in the blank, they are somehow better than someone else? So no I am not bashing SWA, great airline with a LOT of great people.

 

[Dan Roman]

Dan, do you work for Southwest? Did you used to work for Southwest? Are you regularly on a SWA flight deck? I'm just curious because you routinely refer to this "hurry up mindset." If you aren't in the cockpit how do you know if someone is hurrying. I work there and I simply don't see it often. Of course I have witnessed someone being in a hurry but it certainly isn't the norm, encouraged or happening with any frequency. As a matter of fact the very last guy I flew with specifically stated: "Don't ever let me rush you. If you aren't ready we aren't ready." Trust me, this is very much more the norm than the "hurry up mindset" you are so fond of referring to.

Sorry Howie, but I have witnessed it a lot. I've had two SWA flights ignore ATC and cut in front of me at LAX, I've seen a SWA flight taxi so fast from the gate to the parallel taxiway in PHX ( 100 yds) that when ATC didn't let him cut in front of us he had to stand on the brakes so hard the airplane visibly rocked back and forth like nothing I have ever seen. I could go on, but you get the picture. All of us on this forum are all out there on the taxiways from a lot airlines. You are not going to fool anybody by saying SWA crews don't have a rep for fast taxi.
Again, not bashing, just making an observation.

 

[Dan Roman]

And Howie, you are right, you don't see SWA crews speeding as much as you used to. I think you are going through much what we we did inter island. Slowing down and being more standardized is a good thing, like the guy who briefed you about not rushing. Makes for a much happier cockpit.
Your example of being briefed not to rush is a good one. Couple years ago a SWA in a rush took the intersection behind us at OAK. he was in such a rush the non flying pilot mistakingly was still calling out before takeoff items on the radio (in his haste he misselected the radio ) as they rolled down the runway.
Dangerous? Nah, just not as professional and clean as we should all want to fly.

 

[madjack]

Those pesky int/mic rocker switches, they can be trouble...

 

[SWA Bubba]

Ok I'll try...I don't want to use too many pleonasms lest I sound pedantic, erudite or verbose.

Taxiing faster in a straight line is not, by itself always unsafe. But when being in a hurry becomes your norm, it opens the door for incidents like, say......oh I got one! You're cleared for takeoff and you rush on to the runway, cob the power without even waiting to see if you have symmetrical power, which you momentarily don't, and the next thing you know you are all **************************************** and elbows with the rudder pedals or god forbid, you actually are grabbing at the tiller, which in turn can cause all kinds of problems on the T/O roll. Like the Tower Air or CO incident proved.

Don't know about the Tower Air incident, but Continental's DEN incident was unrelated to taxi speed. They were in "position and hold" (old time terminology!), and subsequently cleared for takeoff. Then they started rolling. After > 2000' of rolling, either a gust in left crosswind, or insufficient rudder (or a combination of both) caused the aircraft to start veering to the left. At this point the Captain elected to "assist" the FO (who was the PF) by using the tiller somewhat, instead of either aborting or calling for more rudder. That caused the nosewheel to turn to the right, and essentially "rubbed off" the tires, since the plane was still going on the same path.

This incident was NOT related to taxi speed. NOT related to hurry-up culture. (Unless of course, you're suggesting that Southwest's culture is somehow to blame for other carriers' accidents).

Try again, Dan. Or not.

Bubba

 

[Dan Roman]

Don't know about the Tower Air incident, but Continental's DEN incident was unrelated to taxi speed. They were in "position and hold" (old time terminology!), and subsequently cleared for takeoff. Then they started rolling. After > 2000' of rolling, either a gust in left crosswind, or insufficient rudder (or a combination of both) caused the aircraft to start veering to the left. At this point the Captain elected to "assist" the FO (who was the PF) by using the tiller somewhat, instead of either aborting or calling for more rudder. That caused the nosewheel to turn to the right, and essentially "rubbed off" the tires, since the plane was still going on the same path.

This incident was NOT related to taxi speed. NOT related to hurry-up culture. (Unless of course, you're suggesting that Southwest's culture is somehow to blame for other carriers' accidents).

Try again, Dan. Or not.

Bubba

The point was the problem that using the tiller during the T/O roll was not a good thing (CO and see the Tower example above in waves post).

I made the point that being in hurry could lead to over use of the tiller on the T/O role. I did NOT say ALL tiller misuse was solely due to hurrying too much, just that hurrying too much COULD cause using the tiller too far into the transition from taxi to T/O?
It looks like you are saying because I said tiller misuse was bad and also said speeding could lead to tiller misuse that that equates to ALL tiller misuse examples being a result of speeding?

Again, CO and Tower are examples of what can happen when using the tiller on T/O.
Also, I maintain rushing could cause using the tiller too far into the T/O roll, period.
I did not say ALL tiller misuse was a result of hurrying but the examples (CO and Tower) do point out why the tiller should not be used for the T/O roll.

Clear as mud?

 

[Blue Dude]

"So you'd cover up a bad technique (not standing up the throttles to ensure symmetric thrust"

Not to offend, but I was referring to the case where the other guy is flying and cobs on the power before you can react...thought that was obvious...

Actually, you just made it worse. So the FO is PF, cobs on asymmetric power, and you "help" him with tiller input to stay on centerline? Not to offend, but that's nuts. That's a perfect formula for PIO, over-controlling, and confusion in the cockpit during a critical maneuver. Why not simply reject the takeoff if the FO is botching it up that badly? If you need to "help" with tiller input, he's already balling it up. Stop the plane and start over for crying out loud.

 

[SWA Bubba]

The point was the problem that using the tiller during the T/O roll was not a good thing (CO and see the Tower example above in waves post).

I made the point that being in hurry could lead to over use of the tiller on the T/O role. I did NOT say ALL tiller misuse was solely due to hurrying too much, just that hurrying too much COULD cause using the tiller too far into the transition from taxi to T/O?
It looks like you are saying because I said tiller misuse was bad and also said speeding could lead to tiller misuse that that equates to ALL tiller misuse examples being a result of speeding?

Again, CO and Tower are examples of what can happen when using the tiller on T/O.
Also, I maintain rushing could cause using the tiller too far into the T/O roll, period.
I did not say ALL tiller misuse was a result of hurrying but the examples (CO and Tower) do point out why the tiller should not be used for the T/O roll.

Clear as mud?

Hey, I agree with you about tiller use on T/O. But you directly related the Denver accident with Southwest taxi speeds. You seem to try to do that a lot! I simply pointed out that there was no correlation whatsoever between one guy's bad technique (at another airline!) and Southwest culture.

(And I reject your notion that the "rushing" you continually accuse SWA of necessarily leads to using the tiller too far into a T/O roll).

Bubba

 

[ron burgundy]

I watched many SWA CPs (including Check airman) keep their hand on the tiller until APPROACHING 60 knots on the T/O roll then transition the LH to the yoke....On landing I was told on UOE to keep a hand on the Tiller and S/B lever during the FO's landing...Hey I did not make these techniques up...As far as using the HUD on a VFR T/O, how is that dangerous?? You can see through the HUD and it does provide some protection...I certainly don't use it on MOST T/O's unless I am getting close to going to training, I should use it more...

I am an average pilot and willing to learn from my esteemed colleagues on FI, are these bad techniques??

I think the point was...weak pilots try to complicate things.

 

[ron burgundy]

Dan, I see your point, and yes my background (big wing landing in small places) does lend itself to anality when it comes to Center Line control, thanks for the explanation...

All I can say about taxiing fast, and its impact on tiller use on T/O is that the company does give us the option (to save fuel) to do a rolling take off and the tiller is helpful to me to get around the corner...

I see the logic now and I guess that you are correct. A rolling take off would save a lot more fuel than....SINGLE ENGINE taxi out (WTF).

 

[madjack]

We do SET now...

Not to kick a dead horse, but tiller input below rudder effective speed is not IMHO dangerous, could be wrong but sure doesn't seem that way to me...easy to control at slow speed and if something happens initially on T/O roll and rudder and toe pedal NWS ain't cutting it, why not use it?

 

[j41driver]

As a matter of fact the very last guy I flew with specifically stated: "Don't ever let me rush you. If you aren't ready we aren't ready." Trust me, this is very much more the norm than the "hurry up mindset" you are so fond of referring to.

This has been my experience also. I've felt rushed at AirTran a few times but not once at SWA.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[waveflyer]

Dan, I find it odd that a Hawaiian A330 capt has such a hard on for how SWA operates- you're in left field with that my man.
And of all pilots, how much can you say you truly observe SWA operate? Compared to all the others out there. Nobody's picking up the torch you're passing- why not?

MJ, hey brother I just caught your post about understanding life as an FO here. I appreciate that man, but in all honesty- you guys who were FOs here 10-12 years ago had it much harder and apparently did the heavy lifting with changing the culture- bc it just hasn't been that bad in the right seat here. But I've heard stories that sounded tough to put up with.

I do think you should let go of that tiller help idea though. It does appear to be flat out wrong. As far as asymmetric thrust- you know what we're supposed to do on every leg- cl or ng- spool up to 40% stabilized and go from there- most of the spilt is recognizable and stable by then, but not going crazy at 40%- Then its pretty smooth and even from 40% on up to t/o thrust, even if youre pushing up a split hand-
I've had huge splits, at low speeds and never once been uncontrollable with nothing but feet on pedals-
I agree with blue above- I would not want tiller inputs from a capt without some kind of clear communication that you have the plane. Both of us putting in nose wheel inputs isn't safe.

 

[waveflyer]

And Dan, from my experience- we have a system in place here that accomplishes almost everything at the gate on quick taxis- which is why there is some pushback on SE taxi- we aren't used to the distraction-
I've been way more rushed at commuters and regionals where 5-7 legs is the norm. Natural pressure that just comes from 8 hours of flying packed into a hub and spoke 14 hour day. I think you think it ought to be as slow and regal as your 330- but that's not reality for a lot of us.
You wanna know the weird part. When a guy intentionally slows down, sometimes he succeeds in getting both him and me out of our rhythm and it works against us. Kind of how some of our faster taxiers are smoother than some of our slowest. Thanks for your concern, but I think you've forgotten what it's like to do multiple leg days