SWA/ATA codeshare ending?

[SWA/FO]

FL has continued to hire ATA pilots and will continue to do so

So has Southwest Airlines, whats the point.

 

[OffHot]

Halintexas where do you get your information on our scope. First we have very little if anything about codesharing in our scope. It was talked about after the fact. Additionally, The 5% ASM I don't beleive exists either. The only thing that exists is that SWAPA pilots will fly SWA airplanes. The question was, and why SWA sold its shares of ATA, was mostly because we brought up the fact that we had some ownership and we were not flying the jets. The company knew this going in and approached us about this temporary situation and promised to sell out as soon as it made sense. Guess what they did. The issue of overlapping routes came up with FT Myers, we didnt like it, but nothing in our contract prevented it. The company just said let this one happen and we will talk about the rest.

 

[capt. megadeth]

To be totally honest with respect to this codeshare. SWA has done nothing but destroy a good company. Granted we may have been in business a bit longer with their financing but in the end its just a slow part by part death that has been handed to us. SWA has no idea how much has been gained to them with the destruction of the ATA route system that we worked so hard to produce.

Due we need to remind everyone that our current CEO is ex SWA mgmt. Hmmm. I really wonder were those true colors lie. Can you say direct line between Dennison (ATA) and Kelly (SWA) on the cell phone. I am sure there isn't one decision made here without a call to Dallas Corporate.

When SWA has ETOPS approval, ATA will cease to exist.

Hence, the reason for my hostility towards SWA. I mean, I know they have a business to run but I have a lot of friends at ATA and ex. Chicago Express. I know that ATA started the demise themselves but SWA is a big part of it.

Another thing....I don't buy this "oh, they wouldn't be in business right now if not for SWA" b.s. At least if ATA closed it's doors sooner, the employees could have found jobs by now....it's just delaying the inevitable so no, SWA didn't do ATA any favors. PUHLEEEAZE

 

[SWA/FO]

You are just mad at Southwest Airlines for not hiring you.

You guys looking out for Fed Ex at your current employer? Probably not. You think UAL cares about NWA? How about DAL caring about Jet Blue? You have to take care of #1.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

Hence, the reason for my hostility towards SWA. I mean, I know they have a business to run but I have a lot of friends at ATA and ex. Chicago Express. I know that ATA started the demise themselves but SWA is a big part of it.

Another thing....I don't buy this "oh, they wouldn't be in business right now if not for SWA" b.s. At least if ATA closed it's doors sooner, the employees could have found jobs by now....it's just delaying the inevitable so no, SWA didn't do ATA any favors. PUHLEEEAZE

I can't apologize for any SWA pilot opinions. Everyone here has a need to make a point even if it is beside the point or grossly insensitive. I can only hope they figure out what is right and wrong.

I won't say SWA is doing ATA any long term good right now, but I do hope the future holds good things for ATA. In this industry, especially since 9/11, transformation and short term survival seem to be good things.

IMHO, this codeshare with SWA might allow ATA to more gracefully return to their roots of mostly charter flying. The possibility of offering international codeshare for one or more LCCs also looks promising.

 

[L-1011-500]

You are just mad at Southwest Airlines for not hiring you./quote]

News Flash........ Not everyone wants to work for SWA! ATA was a great place to work before the call to Jihad. I'm afraid the wheels started coming off when John Tague wanted to have shiny new equipment and get away from the charter market. It's too bad all the bad blood has to start as any of you at SWA could be in the same shoes someday.

 

[CaptainMark]

don't mind SWA/FO....he is mad at swa too...they will not let him be a captain...

 

[mdf]

I still think it's too early to define the ATA/SWA relationship. The SWA business model moves slow, and steady, which is hard if you want news today. The only facts so far are SWA is paid back, a 7 year code share agreement is in place, good people have suffered, and ATA is no longer in bankruptcy. Anything else is up in the air. Just when you think your sure it goes the other way. Richmond or Charlotte, bam Philly. MSP or BOS, bam Denver. Okay MSP for sure this time, bam Dulles. None of us have a clue. I'll have to say I was truely excited when the ATA deal was first announced. I didn't think of scope, or who was going to fly what. I was thinking about an opportunity to connect the globe by whatever means. Now that seems completely remote, and there will be tons of other scenarios before this finally plays out, but the way things go my first thoughts will probably closer to the truth than all of the speculation that goes on this forum.

 

[Alcatraz]

I still think it's too early to define the ATA/SWA relationship. The SWA business model moves slow, and steady, which is hard if you want news today. The only facts so far are SWA is paid back, a 7 year code share agreement is in place, good people have suffered, and ATA is no longer in bankruptcy. Anything else is up in the air. Just when you think your sure it goes the other way. Richmond or Charlotte, bam Philly. MSP or BOS, bam Denver. Okay MSP for sure this time, bam Dulles. None of us have a clue. I'll have to say I was truely excited when the ATA deal was first announced. I didn't think of scope, or who was going to fly what. I was thinking about an opportunity to connect the globe by whatever means. Now that seems completely remote, and there will be tons of other scenarios before this finally plays out, but the way things go my first thoughts will probably closer to the truth than all of the speculation that goes on this forum.

Very well said, mdf!

 

[L-1011-500]

I still think it's too early to define the ATA/SWA relationship. The SWA business model moves slow, and steady, which is hard if you want news today. The only facts so far are SWA is paid back, a 7 year code share agreement is in place, good people have suffered, and ATA is no longer in bankruptcy. Anything else is up in the air. Just when you think your sure it goes the other way. Richmond or Charlotte, bam Philly. MSP or BOS, bam Denver. Okay MSP for sure this time, bam Dulles. None of us have a clue. I'll have to say I was truely excited when the ATA deal was first announced. I didn't think of scope, or who was going to fly what. I was thinking about an opportunity to connect the globe by whatever means. Now that seems completely remote, and there will be tons of other scenarios before this finally plays out, but the way things go my first thoughts will probably closer to the truth than all of the speculation that goes on this forum.

Second that!! Very well stated.

 

[HalinTexas]

Halintexas where do you get your information on our scope. First we have very little if anything about codesharing in our scope. It was talked about after the fact. Additionally, The 5% ASM I don't beleive exists either. The only thing that exists is that SWAPA pilots will fly SWA airplanes. The question was, and why SWA sold its shares of ATA, was mostly because we brought up the fact that we had some ownership and we were not flying the jets. The company knew this going in and approached us about this temporary situation and promised to sell out as soon as it made sense. Guess what they did. The issue of overlapping routes came up with FT Myers, we didnt like it, but nothing in our contract prevented it. The company just said let this one happen and we will talk about the rest.

A few members of our MEC met with some of SWAPA's leadership last month.

the chairman of their
Bargaining Committee and was told that codeshare revenues provided to ATA
are directly linked to Southwest's performance and cannot exceed more
than 5.5 percent of SWA's available seat miles. We can only grow the
codeshare as their ASMs grow.

This is out of the codeshare agreement. It's been relayed to ATA pilots through various sources, usually SWA pilots, that (paraphrased) all flying for SWA owned or partially owned shall be done by SWA pilots. We've been told all along that we will not be able to overlap or codeshare into any cities that SWA serves. We've pulled back from every city that SWA serves and pulled out of cities that SWA expanded into, namely RSW and DEN.

 

[HalinTexas]

I don't really think it's too early to define the relationship. ATA is a place marker for SWA. SWA will move in when they can do it themselves with little effort or expense.

Just because we're out of bankruptcy, doesn't mean we're safe or profitable. There is little growth in the charter market. We've sold or fired all of the charter companies and employees we had in our charter department, save for a few to handle the military. You're right we were pretty d@mn good at charter. With fares so low, and airlines selling their own vacation packages, there aren't many deals to be had in the charter market.

There were a couple of union guys last fall, after we conceded our contract, stating that they saw a controlled liquidation of ATA. I wasn't so sure I believed them then, but I do now. FL's deal would have had us down to about 400 pilots from 1100 as of last May. We're now under 700 and furloughs are continuing. Many voluntarily. There is no planned growth of ATA. We're looking at WB lift for the military, that's it. I predict in my crystal ball that ATA will re-enter BK next year and be fragmented out. Even if we don't go bankrupt again, Matlin-Patterson will sell us off to make a buck. They have no interest in running an airline, and no one want to buy us as is. Managment mistakes and culture of denial continues at ATA.

 

[atafan]

I predict in my crystal ball that ATA will re-enter BK next year and be fragmented out.

Our bleeding has stopped, we are breaking even with scheduled service and the Military is making some money. Our balance sheet looks good, our CASM is the lowest in the industry, the codeshare markets will be increasing, despite what you think. Management is actively searching for additional wide bodies.

Why are you convinced that ATA will liquidate just because we aren't expanding at a rate acceptable to you? Matlin-Patterson didn't buy ATA and then roll the dice hoping things work out. In the very beginning they said what they were going to do and they have followed the script to the tee. SWA not only has kept their end of the bargain, they have sweetened the deal to include many things they didn't have to.

Even if we don't go bankrupt again, Matlin-Patterson will sell us off to make a buck.

MP has their exit strategy planned out and it may include selling to the highest bidder. Remember ATA's pieces aren't as valuable as the whole operating airline including ETOPS and international operating authority so your idea of controlled liquidation doesn't make sense to me.

 

[capt. megadeth]

You are just mad at Southwest Airlines for not hiring you.

.

Uh, sorry to break to you but I got over that when UPS hired me.....nice try though.

 

[CaptSeth]

Hang on a minute, guys, I have to get a beer and some popcorn.