SWA/ATA codeshare ending?

[atafan]

I want to apologize for some of the negative things that have been said towards SWA pilots by a few of my fellow ATA pilots.

We have had a pretty good deal at ATA, job satisfaction has always been very high and then George Mikelsons screwed the airline up and we lost our good deal. It's tough not knowing what's going to happen next when you see one thing and Gary Kelly and Denisons says another, it's easy not to trust management after what we have been through.

I and most ATA pilots don't blame SWA for any of our problems and are thankful to have at least bought some time. I am also thankful to SWA pilots for trusting their management and respecting ATA enough not to try to stop this codeshare experiment by citing scope.

I'm not naive, I know that this whole deal could go away but if it's possible it will happen working with an honorable company like SWA. No, I'm not trying to kiss my way into a SWA job, my flying career will end with this ATA gig but I will see this to the end and I am hopeful and positive.

My income has been cut more than half over the last couple of years but I'm still having a good time and still enjoy working with my ATA brothers and sisters.

P.S. the DC-9 job was at a small defunct company called JetTrain.

 

[PHXFLYR]

seems like ancient history but I think SWA outbid us (AWA) for ATA. Can anyone confirm this my memory is vague on this one?

In hindsight it might have been a better deal for ATA pilots to have been merged with awa. Atleast they would all have a seniority number instead of preferential interviews.

Would have been better for us,too. At least the pilot group at ATA was a lot more amicable to work with ,which is more than I can say for our counterparts at USAir.


PHXFLYR

 

[HalinTexas]

I am also thankful to SWA pilots for trusting their management and respecting ATA enough not to try to stop this codeshare experiment by citing scope.

But, they did exactly that, and I don't blame them. They are protecting their interests. That's why SWA dropped all interest in ownership of ATA. Their scope prohibits a codeshare partner from going into one of their cities, including those they intend to enter. Their scope restricts the codeshare to 5% of SWA's ASM's.

I don't think I've blamed any employee, even though most are stockholders. So you don't need to apologize for me, ATAFAN. You also don't need to suck up either. If there were ever be a merger/acquisition/fragmentation we'd be stapled at best anyway.

This it to all concerned. This deal was predatory in nature. American business at it's most competitive. SWA under Gary Kelly is getting tough. There are many examples of this since he began his tenure. The Wright fight is the biggest example. When ATA's employees get it through their thick skulls that SWA is not our savior, we'll all be better off. SWA is out to crush the competition or at the very least build their market share. ATA management is doing little to nothing to ensure our future beyond a shrinking codeshare and military charter. It's because of this that I don't believe ATA will be around another two years. I am one of many that are actively seeking success elsewhere (including SWA), because I know I'll be better off somewhere else even if ATA doesn't liquidate.

If I haven't made this clear. I'm not seeking aplogies from SWA employees, nor am I seeking recognition from them for our sacrifices. I am only expressing my opinions as to fact.

 

[PHXFLYR]

I feel your pain but... To be really totally honest, ATA would have ceased to exist without SWA's financing, every other deal resulted in aquisition or liquidation. You would have been shreded or closed the doors, period, with SWA you still have a job and seniority. This is just business.

SWA knows exactly what they got out of the deal, you havn't seen the end of it either.

ATA will probably still be around after we get ETOPS, just in a different form, again, your still there, still employed still have your senority. Try not to make it sound like your biting the hand thats feeding you.

OHHH PLEAaESEEEE!!!!!! You guys are in the process of doing to ATA what you did to Trans Star in the late 80's . Buy out your competitor and slowly dismantel it. Same playbook,different airline.


PHXFLYR

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

For what its worth, I only wish the best for ATA.

But SWA's history and direction does not bode well for a relationship with ATA that will be what I hoped it could be.

Many factors involved but a couple stand out, IMHO. The CEO cannot justify to SWAPA or the shareholders a permanent, profitable codeshare for ATA. He can only do it as long as its beneficial to SWA. There is risk in codeshare and, unless the culture shifts at SWA, the flying will come back to SWA down the road.


On the flip side I don't think mergers are out of the question. If it looks like other airlines will merge and hurt SWA, SWA may try to beat them to the punch. I can see a situation where ATA will be ripe for merger (buyout?) by Airtran or someone else. I'm hearing the investor group who bought ATA wants to go this route. SWA will then weigh the cost of their competitors getting a hold of ATA.


But this is all far down the road and just a blurry image in my crystal ball.

 

[HalinTexas]

For what its worth, I only wish the best for ATA.

But SWA's history and direction does not bode well for a relationship with ATA that will be what I hoped it could be.

Many factors involved but a couple stand out, IMHO. The CEO cannot justify to SWAPA or the shareholders a permanent, profitable codeshare for ATA. He can only do it as long as its beneficial to SWA. There is risk in codeshare and, unless the culture shifts at SWA, the flying will come back to SWA down the road.


On the flip side I don't think mergers are out of the question. If it looks like other airlines will merge and hurt SWA, SWA may try to beat them to the punch. I can see a situation where ATA will be ripe for merger (buyout?) by Airtran or someone else. I'm hearing the investor group who bought ATA wants to go this route. SWA will then weigh the cost of their competitors getting a hold of ATA.


But this is all far down the road and just a blurry image in my crystal ball.

I can't argue with your logic here. Matlin-Patterson is the determining factor here. I don't think they care to run an airline, but they aren't in this to lose some $150M. I think ATA will be fragmented off into a few pieces some time in the next 2 years. Assets will be spread around, but few people will go with them.

 

[TristarCostar]

ATAFAN,

I don't need anyone apologizing for me either on the forum. I am not blaming a single pilot from any property to the demise of what ATA has become. Managements on the other hand are to blame. Whatever happened to the novel idea of being a manager is to manage. Or managers have proven that they cannot and will not think on their own.

I have met Mr. Dennison twice. Both times during discussion, his cell phone rings and he answers it with Gary Kelly on the other end. Hmmmm. Once again no business plan here will ever be on our own. Who knows, maybe that is better. Look, all off the higher mgmt's have done nothing but lie in the past.

ATA was founded on charter many years ago. We have failed miserably at schedule service for years. A direct quote from Dennison by the way. So why do we continue to come up with codeshare and products that still have scheduled service? As long as we continue to do this, we will be out on the street with the doors closed before long.

ATA needs to do for themselves and stop trying to appease others, including SWA.

 

[Dane Bramage]

I apologize for some of the "arrogant-sounding" comments by my newer SWA brothers. Everyone needs to understand that a LOT of posters on FlightInfo are younger guys who recently got their first major airline job. Some of the newer SWA guys posting here have a tendency to let the "koolaid" do their talking. Not a slam on them, just factual, tangible evidence of the power of the SWA culture to instill company pride and loyalty. It usually wears off with the passage of time.

Now to my main points. A lot of SWA pilots were very concerned about the ATA codeshare. I can't say a majority because we never get a majority of pilots to care about anything at SWA, except for a contract vote. SWAPA did show concern, however, and it wasn't based on us taking advantage of ATA. We were concerned about our new flying being done by you guys.

After some delays, management said enough to appease SWAPA. Beyond that, pilots can't do anything to affect negative outcomes for ATA. SWA management is smart and well-financed. They WILL take the steps necessary to ensure profitability. They are smiling, but will cut your throat in a heartbeat, if necessary. This usually works in our favor as a company, and sometimes to our detriment as labor. Nothing has changed in this regard with Gary Kelly. Herb is a ruthless lawyer who manages to get others to do his dirty work. Bottom line: Pilots need not blame other pilots for decisions made by their management. This goes both ways.

On another note, I would be lying if I said ALL my fellow pilots have great respect and concern for other airlines and their employees. That's simply not true...at SWA or any other airline. We took the brunt of disdain during the good times, so I know there are dumba**es at every airline who place more loyalty with their management than their pilot brethren. I WILL say that the vast majority here DO care about fellow pilots in the industry, however. We all have friends at every airline, many who are suffering through this unprecedented industry low. The majority of us do not take ANY pleasure in reading the news regarding other airlines. I hope everyone understands that.

While I'm on a roll, let me also say that because of the apathy among SWA pilots the official union position on many issues may not be accurate. Most of our "official" union positions are actually the positions of the execs in power. Please don't presuppose that your SWA jumpseater is heading to D.C. to campaign against Age 60. They only got ~60 pilots industry-wide at the last big age 60 "rally." Not what I would consider significant support and participation. But that's another topic for another time.

 

[atafan]

Bottom line: Pilots need not blame other pilots for decisions made by their management. This goes both ways.

Well said!

 

[gearup5]

Don't forget ATA Connection

Aprox. 600 employees were fired,laid off, sh*t canned. 175 pilots(100%) were furloughed (touchy feely name created so you don't feel so bad) None of us are coming back.
I am not mad at WN pilots, but ATA management along with SWA management can lick my a*s. F*ck George M. and Gary K.

 

[canyonblue]

I apologize for some of the "arrogant-sounding" comments by my newer SWA brothers. Everyone needs to understand that a LOT of posters on FlightInfo are younger guys who recently got their first major airline job. Some of the newer SWA guys posting here have a tendency to let the "koolaid" do their talking. Not a slam on them, just factual, tangible evidence of the power of the SWA culture to instill company pride and loyalty. It usually wears off with the passage of time.

Why don't you wear off. I getting a little tired of some SWA pilots getting on this board and thinking they are still at work and want to tell the "junior" guys how it works around here. These guys are free to spout off anything they like, whether popular or unpopular, and you have no right to belittle them for it. Many SWA pilots on this board post things that might make some of us cringe, that is why it is an anonymous board. People will post things that they might not say in front of someone at another airline. You as well are entitled to your opinion, but when you start in on the condescending remarks you cease to exist as a fellow SWA pilot in my book. Sorry to disappoint you, but there is no seniority around here Goober, and if there is you are junior to me anyway. You must be a thrill to fly with CA Avoidance bid.uke:

 

[SWA/FO]

I'm sorry that Capt. Brain Damage feels he needs to apologize for us "junior" folks. You know - nobody has been at SWA longer then him. Looks like he is junior to lots of us here at flightinfo.com.

Being flightinfo's only 5 Star Senior Member, can be tough. I am no rookie or newbee to this game that we all play. Heck, I'm a starter. Varsity baby!

SWA/FO = imp:

 

[Just thinking]

From my understanding SW offered ATA 117$M in a variety of payments, loans etc. with a controlling influence on what ATA would and would not fly ... FL made an initial $98M offer and later matched the $117M (in cash) to ATA for the MDW gates.... no other dictating requirements or controlling business practices. ATA pilots joined FL prior to the deal and even more after the deal. FL was not out to "bleed" ATA as previously posted. FL wanted the MDW gates in an effort to grow. FL has continued to hire ATA pilots and will continue to do so. It is very unfortunate to see the dismantling of a company by those that came in with a "we are here to help you" cloak. I know quite a few pilots from ATA that are very proud of their company and have served them well.

 

[HalinTexas]

FL made an initial $98M offer and later matched the $117M (in cash) to ATA for the MDW gates

News to me.

All we heard was that FL would look into upping the offer, but decided against it.

 

[atafan]

Just Thinking,

What you say is 100% accurate. FL was honest up front and offered no guarantees whatsoever. Hindsight is 20/20, if ATA had taken that offer we would have entrenched into IND and NWA would have finished us off.

The SWA deal was not perfect but it offered some guarantees that attracted an investor, that is why ATA is still flying today. Do I like having my future in the hands of a competitor, of course not! I still would rather be working with SWA than competiting with SWA. Will SWA get ETOPS and start flying Int'l? Maybe, but we have a 7 year code share that offers some protection and much more that no other airline has.

Who knows, maybe AirTran may want International authority someday and the bidding can resume but at least ATA is still here out of bankruptcy and still flying. I still have a plan "B" and just waiting to pull the trigger if I have to.