SWA/ATA codeshare ending?

[atafan]

I want to apologize for some of the negative things that have been said towards SWA pilots by a few of my fellow ATA pilots.

We have had a pretty good deal at ATA, job satisfaction has always been very high and then George Mikelsons screwed the airline up and we lost our good deal. It's tough not knowing what's going to happen next when you see one thing and Gary Kelly and Denisons says another, it's easy not to trust management after what we have been through.

I and most ATA pilots don't blame SWA for any of our problems and are thankful to have at least bought some time. I am also thankful to SWA pilots for trusting their management and respecting ATA enough not to try to stop this codeshare experiment by citing scope.

I'm not naive, I know that this whole deal could go away but if it's possible it will happen working with an honorable company like SWA. No, I'm not trying to kiss my way into a SWA job, my flying career will end with this ATA gig but I will see this to the end and I am hopeful and positive.

My income has been cut more than half over the last couple of years but I'm still having a good time and still enjoy working with my ATA brothers and sisters.

P.S. the DC-9 job was at a small defunct company called JetTrain.

 

[PHXFLYR]

seems like ancient history but I think SWA outbid us (AWA) for ATA. Can anyone confirm this my memory is vague on this one?

In hindsight it might have been a better deal for ATA pilots to have been merged with awa. Atleast they would all have a seniority number instead of preferential interviews.

Would have been better for us,too. At least the pilot group at ATA was a lot more amicable to work with ,which is more than I can say for our counterparts at USAir.


PHXFLYR

 

[HalinTexas]

I am also thankful to SWA pilots for trusting their management and respecting ATA enough not to try to stop this codeshare experiment by citing scope.

But, they did exactly that, and I don't blame them. They are protecting their interests. That's why SWA dropped all interest in ownership of ATA. Their scope prohibits a codeshare partner from going into one of their cities, including those they intend to enter. Their scope restricts the codeshare to 5% of SWA's ASM's.

I don't think I've blamed any employee, even though most are stockholders. So you don't need to apologize for me, ATAFAN. You also don't need to suck up either. If there were ever be a merger/acquisition/fragmentation we'd be stapled at best anyway.

This it to all concerned. This deal was predatory in nature. American business at it's most competitive. SWA under Gary Kelly is getting tough. There are many examples of this since he began his tenure. The Wright fight is the biggest example. When ATA's employees get it through their thick skulls that SWA is not our savior, we'll all be better off. SWA is out to crush the competition or at the very least build their market share. ATA management is doing little to nothing to ensure our future beyond a shrinking codeshare and military charter. It's because of this that I don't believe ATA will be around another two years. I am one of many that are actively seeking success elsewhere (including SWA), because I know I'll be better off somewhere else even if ATA doesn't liquidate.

If I haven't made this clear. I'm not seeking aplogies from SWA employees, nor am I seeking recognition from them for our sacrifices. I am only expressing my opinions as to fact.

 

[PHXFLYR]

I feel your pain but... To be really totally honest, ATA would have ceased to exist without SWA's financing, every other deal resulted in aquisition or liquidation. You would have been shreded or closed the doors, period, with SWA you still have a job and seniority. This is just business.

SWA knows exactly what they got out of the deal, you havn't seen the end of it either.

ATA will probably still be around after we get ETOPS, just in a different form, again, your still there, still employed still have your senority. Try not to make it sound like your biting the hand thats feeding you.

OHHH PLEAaESEEEE!!!!!! You guys are in the process of doing to ATA what you did to Trans Star in the late 80's . Buy out your competitor and slowly dismantel it. Same playbook,different airline.


PHXFLYR

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

For what its worth, I only wish the best for ATA.

But SWA's history and direction does not bode well for a relationship with ATA that will be what I hoped it could be.

Many factors involved but a couple stand out, IMHO. The CEO cannot justify to SWAPA or the shareholders a permanent, profitable codeshare for ATA. He can only do it as long as its beneficial to SWA. There is risk in codeshare and, unless the culture shifts at SWA, the flying will come back to SWA down the road.


On the flip side I don't think mergers are out of the question. If it looks like other airlines will merge and hurt SWA, SWA may try to beat them to the punch. I can see a situation where ATA will be ripe for merger (buyout?) by Airtran or someone else. I'm hearing the investor group who bought ATA wants to go this route. SWA will then weigh the cost of their competitors getting a hold of ATA.


But this is all far down the road and just a blurry image in my crystal ball.

 

[HalinTexas]

For what its worth, I only wish the best for ATA.

But SWA's history and direction does not bode well for a relationship with ATA that will be what I hoped it could be.

Many factors involved but a couple stand out, IMHO. The CEO cannot justify to SWAPA or the shareholders a permanent, profitable codeshare for ATA. He can only do it as long as its beneficial to SWA. There is risk in codeshare and, unless the culture shifts at SWA, the flying will come back to SWA down the road.


On the flip side I don't think mergers are out of the question. If it looks like other airlines will merge and hurt SWA, SWA may try to beat them to the punch. I can see a situation where ATA will be ripe for merger (buyout?) by Airtran or someone else. I'm hearing the investor group who bought ATA wants to go this route. SWA will then weigh the cost of their competitors getting a hold of ATA.


But this is all far down the road and just a blurry image in my crystal ball.

I can't argue with your logic here. Matlin-Patterson is the determining factor here. I don't think they care to run an airline, but they aren't in this to lose some $150M. I think ATA will be fragmented off into a few pieces some time in the next 2 years. Assets will be spread around, but few people will go with them.

 

[TristarCostar]

ATAFAN,

I don't need anyone apologizing for me either on the forum. I am not blaming a single pilot from any property to the demise of what ATA has become. Managements on the other hand are to blame. Whatever happened to the novel idea of being a manager is to manage. Or managers have proven that they cannot and will not think on their own.

I have met Mr. Dennison twice. Both times during discussion, his cell phone rings and he answers it with Gary Kelly on the other end. Hmmmm. Once again no business plan here will ever be on our own. Who knows, maybe that is better. Look, all off the higher mgmt's have done nothing but lie in the past.

ATA was founded on charter many years ago. We have failed miserably at schedule service for years. A direct quote from Dennison by the way. So why do we continue to come up with codeshare and products that still have scheduled service? As long as we continue to do this, we will be out on the street with the doors closed before long.

ATA needs to do for themselves and stop trying to appease others, including SWA.

 

[Dane Bramage]

I apologize for some of the "arrogant-sounding" comments by my newer SWA brothers. Everyone needs to understand that a LOT of posters on FlightInfo are younger guys who recently got their first major airline job. Some of the newer SWA guys posting here have a tendency to let the "koolaid" do their talking. Not a slam on them, just factual, tangible evidence of the power of the SWA culture to instill company pride and loyalty. It usually wears off with the passage of time.

Now to my main points. A lot of SWA pilots were very concerned about the ATA codeshare. I can't say a majority because we never get a majority of pilots to care about anything at SWA, except for a contract vote. SWAPA did show concern, however, and it wasn't based on us taking advantage of ATA. We were concerned about our new flying being done by you guys.

After some delays, management said enough to appease SWAPA. Beyond that, pilots can't do anything to affect negative outcomes for ATA. SWA management is smart and well-financed. They WILL take the steps necessary to ensure profitability. They are smiling, but will cut your throat in a heartbeat, if necessary. This usually works in our favor as a company, and sometimes to our detriment as labor. Nothing has changed in this regard with Gary Kelly. Herb is a ruthless lawyer who manages to get others to do his dirty work. Bottom line: Pilots need not blame other pilots for decisions made by their management. This goes both ways.

On another note, I would be lying if I said ALL my fellow pilots have great respect and concern for other airlines and their employees. That's simply not true...at SWA or any other airline. We took the brunt of disdain during the good times, so I know there are dumba**es at every airline who place more loyalty with their management than their pilot brethren. I WILL say that the vast majority here DO care about fellow pilots in the industry, however. We all have friends at every airline, many who are suffering through this unprecedented industry low. The majority of us do not take ANY pleasure in reading the news regarding other airlines. I hope everyone understands that.

While I'm on a roll, let me also say that because of the apathy among SWA pilots the official union position on many issues may not be accurate. Most of our "official" union positions are actually the positions of the execs in power. Please don't presuppose that your SWA jumpseater is heading to D.C. to campaign against Age 60. They only got ~60 pilots industry-wide at the last big age 60 "rally." Not what I would consider significant support and participation. But that's another topic for another time.

 

[atafan]

Bottom line: Pilots need not blame other pilots for decisions made by their management. This goes both ways.

Well said!

 

[gearup5]

Don't forget ATA Connection

Aprox. 600 employees were fired,laid off, sh*t canned. 175 pilots(100%) were furloughed (touchy feely name created so you don't feel so bad) None of us are coming back.
I am not mad at WN pilots, but ATA management along with SWA management can lick my a*s. F*ck George M. and Gary K.

 

[canyonblue]

I apologize for some of the "arrogant-sounding" comments by my newer SWA brothers. Everyone needs to understand that a LOT of posters on FlightInfo are younger guys who recently got their first major airline job. Some of the newer SWA guys posting here have a tendency to let the "koolaid" do their talking. Not a slam on them, just factual, tangible evidence of the power of the SWA culture to instill company pride and loyalty. It usually wears off with the passage of time.

Why don't you wear off. I getting a little tired of some SWA pilots getting on this board and thinking they are still at work and want to tell the "junior" guys how it works around here. These guys are free to spout off anything they like, whether popular or unpopular, and you have no right to belittle them for it. Many SWA pilots on this board post things that might make some of us cringe, that is why it is an anonymous board. People will post things that they might not say in front of someone at another airline. You as well are entitled to your opinion, but when you start in on the condescending remarks you cease to exist as a fellow SWA pilot in my book. Sorry to disappoint you, but there is no seniority around here Goober, and if there is you are junior to me anyway. You must be a thrill to fly with CA Avoidance bid.uke:

 

[SWA/FO]

I'm sorry that Capt. Brain Damage feels he needs to apologize for us "junior" folks. You know - nobody has been at SWA longer then him. Looks like he is junior to lots of us here at flightinfo.com.

Being flightinfo's only 5 Star Senior Member, can be tough. I am no rookie or newbee to this game that we all play. Heck, I'm a starter. Varsity baby!

SWA/FO = imp:

 

[Just thinking]

From my understanding SW offered ATA 117$M in a variety of payments, loans etc. with a controlling influence on what ATA would and would not fly ... FL made an initial $98M offer and later matched the $117M (in cash) to ATA for the MDW gates.... no other dictating requirements or controlling business practices. ATA pilots joined FL prior to the deal and even more after the deal. FL was not out to "bleed" ATA as previously posted. FL wanted the MDW gates in an effort to grow. FL has continued to hire ATA pilots and will continue to do so. It is very unfortunate to see the dismantling of a company by those that came in with a "we are here to help you" cloak. I know quite a few pilots from ATA that are very proud of their company and have served them well.

 

[HalinTexas]

FL made an initial $98M offer and later matched the $117M (in cash) to ATA for the MDW gates

News to me.

All we heard was that FL would look into upping the offer, but decided against it.

 

[atafan]

Just Thinking,

What you say is 100% accurate. FL was honest up front and offered no guarantees whatsoever. Hindsight is 20/20, if ATA had taken that offer we would have entrenched into IND and NWA would have finished us off.

The SWA deal was not perfect but it offered some guarantees that attracted an investor, that is why ATA is still flying today. Do I like having my future in the hands of a competitor, of course not! I still would rather be working with SWA than competiting with SWA. Will SWA get ETOPS and start flying Int'l? Maybe, but we have a 7 year code share that offers some protection and much more that no other airline has.

Who knows, maybe AirTran may want International authority someday and the bidding can resume but at least ATA is still here out of bankruptcy and still flying. I still have a plan "B" and just waiting to pull the trigger if I have to.

 

[SWA/FO]

FL has continued to hire ATA pilots and will continue to do so

So has Southwest Airlines, whats the point.

 

[OffHot]

Halintexas where do you get your information on our scope. First we have very little if anything about codesharing in our scope. It was talked about after the fact. Additionally, The 5% ASM I don't beleive exists either. The only thing that exists is that SWAPA pilots will fly SWA airplanes. The question was, and why SWA sold its shares of ATA, was mostly because we brought up the fact that we had some ownership and we were not flying the jets. The company knew this going in and approached us about this temporary situation and promised to sell out as soon as it made sense. Guess what they did. The issue of overlapping routes came up with FT Myers, we didnt like it, but nothing in our contract prevented it. The company just said let this one happen and we will talk about the rest.

 

[capt. megadeth]

To be totally honest with respect to this codeshare. SWA has done nothing but destroy a good company. Granted we may have been in business a bit longer with their financing but in the end its just a slow part by part death that has been handed to us. SWA has no idea how much has been gained to them with the destruction of the ATA route system that we worked so hard to produce.

Due we need to remind everyone that our current CEO is ex SWA mgmt. Hmmm. I really wonder were those true colors lie. Can you say direct line between Dennison (ATA) and Kelly (SWA) on the cell phone. I am sure there isn't one decision made here without a call to Dallas Corporate.

When SWA has ETOPS approval, ATA will cease to exist.

Hence, the reason for my hostility towards SWA. I mean, I know they have a business to run but I have a lot of friends at ATA and ex. Chicago Express. I know that ATA started the demise themselves but SWA is a big part of it.

Another thing....I don't buy this "oh, they wouldn't be in business right now if not for SWA" b.s. At least if ATA closed it's doors sooner, the employees could have found jobs by now....it's just delaying the inevitable so no, SWA didn't do ATA any favors. PUHLEEEAZE

 

[SWA/FO]

You are just mad at Southwest Airlines for not hiring you.

You guys looking out for Fed Ex at your current employer? Probably not. You think UAL cares about NWA? How about DAL caring about Jet Blue? You have to take care of #1.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

Hence, the reason for my hostility towards SWA. I mean, I know they have a business to run but I have a lot of friends at ATA and ex. Chicago Express. I know that ATA started the demise themselves but SWA is a big part of it.

Another thing....I don't buy this "oh, they wouldn't be in business right now if not for SWA" b.s. At least if ATA closed it's doors sooner, the employees could have found jobs by now....it's just delaying the inevitable so no, SWA didn't do ATA any favors. PUHLEEEAZE

I can't apologize for any SWA pilot opinions. Everyone here has a need to make a point even if it is beside the point or grossly insensitive. I can only hope they figure out what is right and wrong.

I won't say SWA is doing ATA any long term good right now, but I do hope the future holds good things for ATA. In this industry, especially since 9/11, transformation and short term survival seem to be good things.

IMHO, this codeshare with SWA might allow ATA to more gracefully return to their roots of mostly charter flying. The possibility of offering international codeshare for one or more LCCs also looks promising.

 

[L-1011-500]

You are just mad at Southwest Airlines for not hiring you./quote]

News Flash........ Not everyone wants to work for SWA! ATA was a great place to work before the call to Jihad. I'm afraid the wheels started coming off when John Tague wanted to have shiny new equipment and get away from the charter market. It's too bad all the bad blood has to start as any of you at SWA could be in the same shoes someday.

 

[CaptainMark]

don't mind SWA/FO....he is mad at swa too...they will not let him be a captain...

 

[mdf]

I still think it's too early to define the ATA/SWA relationship. The SWA business model moves slow, and steady, which is hard if you want news today. The only facts so far are SWA is paid back, a 7 year code share agreement is in place, good people have suffered, and ATA is no longer in bankruptcy. Anything else is up in the air. Just when you think your sure it goes the other way. Richmond or Charlotte, bam Philly. MSP or BOS, bam Denver. Okay MSP for sure this time, bam Dulles. None of us have a clue. I'll have to say I was truely excited when the ATA deal was first announced. I didn't think of scope, or who was going to fly what. I was thinking about an opportunity to connect the globe by whatever means. Now that seems completely remote, and there will be tons of other scenarios before this finally plays out, but the way things go my first thoughts will probably closer to the truth than all of the speculation that goes on this forum.

 

[Alcatraz]

I still think it's too early to define the ATA/SWA relationship. The SWA business model moves slow, and steady, which is hard if you want news today. The only facts so far are SWA is paid back, a 7 year code share agreement is in place, good people have suffered, and ATA is no longer in bankruptcy. Anything else is up in the air. Just when you think your sure it goes the other way. Richmond or Charlotte, bam Philly. MSP or BOS, bam Denver. Okay MSP for sure this time, bam Dulles. None of us have a clue. I'll have to say I was truely excited when the ATA deal was first announced. I didn't think of scope, or who was going to fly what. I was thinking about an opportunity to connect the globe by whatever means. Now that seems completely remote, and there will be tons of other scenarios before this finally plays out, but the way things go my first thoughts will probably closer to the truth than all of the speculation that goes on this forum.

Very well said, mdf!

 

[L-1011-500]

I still think it's too early to define the ATA/SWA relationship. The SWA business model moves slow, and steady, which is hard if you want news today. The only facts so far are SWA is paid back, a 7 year code share agreement is in place, good people have suffered, and ATA is no longer in bankruptcy. Anything else is up in the air. Just when you think your sure it goes the other way. Richmond or Charlotte, bam Philly. MSP or BOS, bam Denver. Okay MSP for sure this time, bam Dulles. None of us have a clue. I'll have to say I was truely excited when the ATA deal was first announced. I didn't think of scope, or who was going to fly what. I was thinking about an opportunity to connect the globe by whatever means. Now that seems completely remote, and there will be tons of other scenarios before this finally plays out, but the way things go my first thoughts will probably closer to the truth than all of the speculation that goes on this forum.

Second that!! Very well stated.

 

[HalinTexas]

Halintexas where do you get your information on our scope. First we have very little if anything about codesharing in our scope. It was talked about after the fact. Additionally, The 5% ASM I don't beleive exists either. The only thing that exists is that SWAPA pilots will fly SWA airplanes. The question was, and why SWA sold its shares of ATA, was mostly because we brought up the fact that we had some ownership and we were not flying the jets. The company knew this going in and approached us about this temporary situation and promised to sell out as soon as it made sense. Guess what they did. The issue of overlapping routes came up with FT Myers, we didnt like it, but nothing in our contract prevented it. The company just said let this one happen and we will talk about the rest.

A few members of our MEC met with some of SWAPA's leadership last month.

the chairman of their
Bargaining Committee and was told that codeshare revenues provided to ATA
are directly linked to Southwest's performance and cannot exceed more
than 5.5 percent of SWA's available seat miles. We can only grow the
codeshare as their ASMs grow.

This is out of the codeshare agreement. It's been relayed to ATA pilots through various sources, usually SWA pilots, that (paraphrased) all flying for SWA owned or partially owned shall be done by SWA pilots. We've been told all along that we will not be able to overlap or codeshare into any cities that SWA serves. We've pulled back from every city that SWA serves and pulled out of cities that SWA expanded into, namely RSW and DEN.

 

[HalinTexas]

I don't really think it's too early to define the relationship. ATA is a place marker for SWA. SWA will move in when they can do it themselves with little effort or expense.

Just because we're out of bankruptcy, doesn't mean we're safe or profitable. There is little growth in the charter market. We've sold or fired all of the charter companies and employees we had in our charter department, save for a few to handle the military. You're right we were pretty d@mn good at charter. With fares so low, and airlines selling their own vacation packages, there aren't many deals to be had in the charter market.

There were a couple of union guys last fall, after we conceded our contract, stating that they saw a controlled liquidation of ATA. I wasn't so sure I believed them then, but I do now. FL's deal would have had us down to about 400 pilots from 1100 as of last May. We're now under 700 and furloughs are continuing. Many voluntarily. There is no planned growth of ATA. We're looking at WB lift for the military, that's it. I predict in my crystal ball that ATA will re-enter BK next year and be fragmented out. Even if we don't go bankrupt again, Matlin-Patterson will sell us off to make a buck. They have no interest in running an airline, and no one want to buy us as is. Managment mistakes and culture of denial continues at ATA.

 

[atafan]

I predict in my crystal ball that ATA will re-enter BK next year and be fragmented out.

Our bleeding has stopped, we are breaking even with scheduled service and the Military is making some money. Our balance sheet looks good, our CASM is the lowest in the industry, the codeshare markets will be increasing, despite what you think. Management is actively searching for additional wide bodies.

Why are you convinced that ATA will liquidate just because we aren't expanding at a rate acceptable to you? Matlin-Patterson didn't buy ATA and then roll the dice hoping things work out. In the very beginning they said what they were going to do and they have followed the script to the tee. SWA not only has kept their end of the bargain, they have sweetened the deal to include many things they didn't have to.

Even if we don't go bankrupt again, Matlin-Patterson will sell us off to make a buck.

MP has their exit strategy planned out and it may include selling to the highest bidder. Remember ATA's pieces aren't as valuable as the whole operating airline including ETOPS and international operating authority so your idea of controlled liquidation doesn't make sense to me.

 

[capt. megadeth]

You are just mad at Southwest Airlines for not hiring you.

.

Uh, sorry to break to you but I got over that when UPS hired me.....nice try though.

 

[CaptSeth]

Hang on a minute, guys, I have to get a beer and some popcorn.