SWA Apps require type, 1 Nov start date

[MLBWINGBORN]

Now..Lets be really clear here..

While its really easy to put the "pay for training"tag on SWA you have to keep a few things in mind..

SWA has never said that you had to get the type yourself..If you have had the rating issued to you someplace else thats just as good..
If they had never hired someone without 737 experience other than a type check ride how hard would a type in the 737 be to swallow as a hiring requirment?

In other words if you have had the experience somewwheres else you still dont have to go out and pay for training..You get the job..

Now..If you want to work for a major airline like SWA and you dont have the needed 737 experience and you dont want to find a job that may get it for you,you are able to get the type and be considered by a major for what in reality is a small investment in your future..

The training you get at SWA is in no way shortened based on the fact that you have a type..The only real benefit to SWA is the break they get for hiring higher time pilots with types from the insurance company....

This is a far cry from having to pay the upfront costs of your company/FAA required ground school as well as sim training and perhapes even your hotel and transportation as in most of the more dirty/lowdown pay for training deals running around out there..

The difference was at one point alot of the folks applying to SWA had no 737 experience at all but met the basic minimums..In order to be considered you have to have had a type rating in the 737..Period..
SWA changed the requirment at one point do to the fact that they were concerned about getting enough applications to allow for future growth..
Now that all the other majors have stopped hiring they have gone back to the original requirments that they have had in place long before pay for training was part of the industry back when the company was started..

Like most biased arguments you can say it resembles pay for training..But thats sorta like saying i resemble a a black man..You would only be half right and even then you would have to discard the basic fact that i am white..

I have found that those people that yell the loudest about the type requirement at SWA are those that want it all for nothing or consider a position at a major airline to be something they deserve..Not something that is earned nor worked for..

SWA has always been and will continue to be about Freedom..
The freedom of choice is one of our greatest..So feel free to choose a different path to the seat of our 737s..

But what ever path you choose, please make your decisions based on the real facts and not the half truths of the vocal few who are ill informed at best and tend to paint the world as the choose to see it and not as it really is..

SWA has never been nor shall it ever be a "pay for training" airline..

Thoth

 

[qxeplt]

Yeah, what you said...

Thoth,

Very well said...

 

[Indapool]

Amen brother

 

[Race Pilot]

............. the type rating requirement was the ultimate "good ol boy, Airforce network"

enigma, That's one reason I'm leaving the Air Force. Although I am honored to have served my country and defended its freedoms for over 20 years, I am growing weary of what is in many places a "good ole boys network". Nothing wrong with networking with people but folks should be hired on their abilities, not who they know.

Originally posted by oppsahh
Hey Race Pilot,

Your an Idiot................

nevermind, its not worth any of our time. Go back to your hole.

oppsahh, I guess if I'm an idiot I really fooled a lot of people in my life, like all my professors in college where I earned a 3.8 GPA and graduated with a Bachelor of Science in Business Management or my professors at Embry-Riddle where I earned a 4.0 GPA and a Masters of Aeronautical Science in Aerospace Operations. Or all the people who wrote my performance reports in the Air Force where I progressed to the rank of Lieutenant Colonel before choosing to retire. Or the interviewers who have now hired me at a major airline and one of the fastest growing airlines to come along in history (who earned more money than SWA last quarter by the way). Long story short, don't call people names on the internet when you haven't even met them in person, that's childish behavior and I will not engage in it with you. But I will say this even though I haven't met you; if you happen to work for SWA, and you are the kind of person they hire, my sympathy goes out to all the good pilots there. I happen to know several of them. And if you were trying to say "You are an idiot" by using a contraction, "You're" would be the correct way to do that. And "it is" would be correctly expressed as "it's". Okay...........back to my hole.

 

[TriStar_drvr]

ATA is a major?

Yes it is by DOT standards which classifies an airline as a major if it has more than a billion dollars in annual revenue. I believe American Eagle is also a major now. I know before the strike, Comair was on its way to that billion dollar mark too.

I really don't care whether ATA is a "major" or not. As long as the company stays in business, continues to offer me employment, and the pay check doesn't bounce, I'm happy (and in today's times, fortunate too).

 

[ATA75Pilot]

Interesting thought....

What if all the major airlines followed SWA lead and began to require a type rating at the applicant's expense prior to an interview?

I think the uproar would be heard from coast-to-coast from those of us in the industry.

My fear is - at what point does it become unacceptable to buy your way into employment with a particular carrier?

In many cases (Pre 9/11) we were forced to pay outrageous fees just to apply and maintain a current application.

Is the next step having to pay for your hotel in Basic Indoc (I know there are those that do this).

How about having to buy your manuals? It's only a few hundred extra dollars.

Would it be acceptable then to pay a "fee" for the checkride and sim use for your initail checkride? Is it any different than when you tested for all your ratings? Private - ATP?

Maybe then the carrier could require you to pay the same fee for yearly currency checks as a requirement of employment. Most of us already have to pay the cost of a medical exam twice a year to remain qualified and employed. What is different in principal?

The Achilees Heel (sp?) of this profession is that because it is such a sought after position, airlines can require almost any criteria to be met and there will still be hundreds for a single job opening that will submit to meeting that criteria at any cost.

Just some philosophical ruminations....

Personal Rant Below - Feel Free To Ignore

As far as ATA being a Major...it has been classified as such by the DOT or a couple years now. Soon you will see us in the USA Today Money section as we are about to begin required DOT reportating stats.

Ours will be the longest bar graph at the bottom of the "Customer Satisfaction" grouping every week. You know...the one with the most complaints. Maybe after management sees that week in and week out they will be embarrassed enough to do something about it.

 

[RightBettor]

Bummer...

ATA757:

Sorry to hear things are still a bummer with ATA customer service (I once watched a MDW agent holler at an old lady and call that old lady "stupid"... had to step in on that one even though it wasn't my flight) and the Indy management hasn't improved any. I really enjoyed my time at ATA. The crews were all great!! I look forward to running to some old buds in MDW when SWA finally gets me out of this pool. I am shrivelled beyond belief!!! TMI... I know. BTW is R. Ennis still the CP at MDW? He is a great guy to have as a boss. How is J. Bronske in the flight office?

Take care,
RightBettor

 

[ATA75Pilot]

Ennis has been promoted to 757 Fleet Manager. The previous Fleet Manger was replaced (Lichtenburg) for being to "pilot supportive".

Joe Daley is now Cheif Pilot - MDW

Joanne is chuugin' along in her usual good natured mode.

You probably heard Tague was fired - er, left to pursue other interests.

You know how it is here.....Ready - Fire - Aim!!!!!!!!!!!!! (gonna have that inscribed on a brass plaque to hang in IND HQ).

Big push to send the front line employees (FA's and Customer Service) to school for training in passenger relations. Only because we soon have to report our stats to the DOT. I always said - you get what you hire. As long as ATA hires for cost instead of quality - what can you expect.

Good to hear you are in the pool at SWA. Great place to be these days. Where did you get furloughed from?

 

[Mr.Aviation]

SWA=GOOD OLD FASHIONED PFT!!!

 

[Race Pilot]

hudbaby,

I'm not trying to impress anyone, just stating the facts. And I don't know since you didn't bother to submit any of your qualifications to speak on the matter, but I suspect you have never participated in a "night school" Masters program from ERAU. When I went through at Andrews AFB in the late 80's it required quite a bit of work to earn the degree. Our classes were filled with not only military people from all services but also people like the Chief Tower Controller at Washington National Airport, the Chief of Aircraft Maintenance for Mobil Oil Corporation, high ranking officials from the National Business Aircraft Association (NBAA) and the Department of Transportation (DOT), just to name a few. And the classes were taught by professors with various backgrounds to include previous test pilots (both military and civilian) and a, I kid you not, retired rocket scientist from NASA. People with intelligence you and I can only dream of having. I don't know what programs are like now at places like, say, Pope AFB or elsewhere but this was no "give me" degree. I'm proud of it and always will be.

And as far as the rank thing goes, I do not use my rank in the civilian world; as I matter of fact I kind of chuckle when I see guys who sign letters "Lt Col, Retired" and things like that. I don't even use it in my military job except when I have to, such as signing an official document. But you know what, I and the others who have earned it, have the right to use it whenever and wherever we want. In this case I was simply trying to give perspective on the education I have received and the hurdles I have crossed to make it to this point in the Air Force. Again, since you didn't bother to post your qualifications to comment on the matter I can only assume that you have never pursued the education and served in the positions that it takes to earn that rank. If you feel that the Air Force or some other branch of service has dealt you a bad hand and choose to quit, that's your choice. But don't try to bash me or anyone else who chose to stick it out, serve my country, and do the work required to make it to this point. Those presently serving both home and abroad in our current war against terrorism would question your loyalties.

xXpress1,

I never, ever called an individual on this forum a name. And never will. That IS childish. I spoke of a company's philosophy and I think many others have now expressed that better than I can so I will leave it at that. ATA, as we all know now, is a major and as far as I know the ONLY one that is interviewing AND hiring at the moment. After one week in class I will say that I really like the people there that I have had the opportunity to meet. It scares me a little to hear all this stuff about customer service and such, but the people that I have met there are SUPER!! Oh well, Jet Blue is about halfway through my background check at this point..........................

 

[Race Pilot]

oopsahh,

No, not flying for JB. Just interviewed with them a couple of weeks ago and have made it on to Phase 2. I'm not sure on this as I have not actually seen the balance sheet, but my understanding is that JB has been putting an amount equal to what the aircraft payments would have been if they had not negotiated this "no initial payment" deal with Airbus into an account and earning interest on it while ensuring the money is there when the actual payments are due. Again, not sure but if true, smart business planning.

And yes, ATA has been around 30 years now, doing nothing but charter work until a few years ago. The "true" scheduled service push and current acquisition of airplanes started about two years ago when the 737-800s started coming on line and ATA now has the youngest scheduled service fleet of the majors. But yes, the comment about "fastest growing" was meant for JB, not ATA. ATA is a very conservative airline which is probably what has ensured its survival to this point, and allowed them to hire through a downturn such as this.

 

[jll]

Racepilot,

Just wondering how much time you have in the L-1011 and with ATA and why you would even consider JB?

 

[Race Pilot]

jll,

I have zero (0) hours in the Tri Star. I am a new hire in class right now. As for why I would consider JB, well, I had the interview scheduled before ATA called me with a class date so I showed up as scheduled to keep my word. I am quite impressed with their business plan and the word of mouth advertising they are getting from their customers is phenominal. If you go to www.jetblue.com and just read some of the things they have done, and are continuing to do, it's impressive. They are leveraging technology in every way to make things work smoother for every one and to keep costs down. The initial investment was high to do this but since they had a clean slate to work with they were able to do it right from the start. Other airlines, ATA included, are now trying to catch up on some of that stuff but with the structures that are already in place there it takes a significant investment to convert to new technology. Take a look at the front cover of the latest Forbes magazine, the front of last Tuesday's Money section of USA Today, or I believe next Wednesday's 60 Minutes II on CBS and see what they are saying. The big question of course is will JB make it in the long run. Many on the outside attempt to poke a lot of holes in the container holding the "Blue Koolaid" but it appears fairly leakproof to me after much research. I think they will make it and make it big. And to be # 300 say on a seniority list that can easily double that in the next three years is not a bad thing. Decisions, decisions....................

 

[jll]

Racepilot,

I've done my homework on JB and I too have my fingers crossed. I just hope you didn't state to them that your a L-1011 F/O as your Flightinfo profile states. Phase II is very thorough and that would be a sure way to get excluded from getting the PHC blessing.

 

[Race Pilot]

jll,

No, I didn't tell them that I was a L-1011 FO. But I did tell them that I was slated for the L-1011 at ATA. Being perfectly honest with them as everyone should be. I did tell them that I was a 727 Captain, which I am. Basically, just like the rest of life, the truth shall set you free. I tried to put (in tng) at the end of the L-1011 F/O in my profile but the system wouldn't allow that many characters. I didn't realize that people read those so close. But I figured out a way to make it a little more clear so as not to be confusing. I also added a signature that should leave no questions as to my status. Good luck to you at JB. Are you in Phase 2 or are your fingers crossed for another reason?