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SWA Announces DEN Routes
- Thread starter chase
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SWA? You guys seem real scard of us:cartman: ?
AnimalTale
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2004
- Posts
- 543
SWA just RULES! I just hope you can come into Denver with a humble attitude and be respectful of your veteran neighbors.
Ultimately, I know it and you know it, SWA has enough cash on hand to sink UAL and F9. This is capatalism at its best and our pax will determine success or failure. I do know F9 fares from den-las-den are always a little higher than UAL and HP, but somehow F9 packs in the folks. So pricing is not everything.
I remember, too, many years ago Delta, NWA, UAL and Usair where the darlings . They had more cash on hand then debt. Much like SWA is today.
My point is, Enjoy the ride without being arrogant because one day you too could be in the same situation as BANCRUPT UAL, NWA and DELTA.
Have fun in Denver, we will all do good.
Cya
Ultimately, I know it and you know it, SWA has enough cash on hand to sink UAL and F9. This is capatalism at its best and our pax will determine success or failure. I do know F9 fares from den-las-den are always a little higher than UAL and HP, but somehow F9 packs in the folks. So pricing is not everything.
I remember, too, many years ago Delta, NWA, UAL and Usair where the darlings . They had more cash on hand then debt. Much like SWA is today.
My point is, Enjoy the ride without being arrogant because one day you too could be in the same situation as BANCRUPT UAL, NWA and DELTA.
Have fun in Denver, we will all do good.
Cya
Last edited:
jetalc
Button Pusher
- Joined
- Dec 7, 2003
- Posts
- 312
OffHot said:
Well, I'm not sure what you're looking at, but I went to southwest.com, selected PHX-MDW, Roundtrip, "Internet Special ($202 each way)", selected the departure date of November 3rd, return November 4, 1 adult, no promotion codes, and hit "Select and Pricing" (or whatever the next step is). Actually, the total fare didn't come to $404. It came to $422.90. Your original post simply contained a reference to Frontier charging $333 for a flight from DEN-MDW, and that point is just as out of context as my random comparison of fares. I didn't have to search for a lower fare offered by Frontier - I just thought of two cities, and compared the internet fares - how are you getting such a different fare than the one I just now found, again?
Chase - I bumbled through your post, and I think I get your point. I agree that there is more to this than picking one city pair and having that somehow be and indication of "success." Do you know F9's load factors on those routes? Didn't think so.
SWA/FO - it's spelled "scared" not "scard", and no, I'm not "scard" about SWA coming to DEN. I'm worried about the arrogance shown by SWA people on this board regarding past successes of their company.
Slug - Ditto what I said to Chase.
Guys - this is not meant to be a pissing match. I'm just sick and tired of the mis-information out there regarding SWA's "great fares." Other airlines are offering just as good, and sometimes better fares than SWA. Didn't mean to get your orange panties in a bunch over this, but I will not sit here and listen to more misinformation. There. I feel better now.
Let's see what happens before jumping to conclusions.
SWA/FO said:
SWA/FO,
I think you will find that the Frontier folks love their company and will defend it as well...without the arrogance. I think that your "SWA rules" attitude doesn't sit well with the folks at F9 that have worked very hard and have sacraficed a lot to build a very high quality airline in Denver. Take a page out of Chase's book and show a little respect. Thanks Chase.
Of course people are going to be concerned (not scared) when the industry's fiscally strongest airline moves into their hub and overlaps its routes. Over-capacity and low yields have been the bane of the industry and this doesn't help. At the end of the day I believe that the impact will be positive for the consumer, neutral for WN, and slightly negative for F9 and the other airlines on these routes. In other words, no big deal.
SWA/FO
5 Star Senior Member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 3,520
I think something more arrogant would be..."Hey F9 we are coming to DEN to kick your a$$" :smash: .
However, I only typed "SWA rules".
I didn't claim F9 folks don't like their team.
You guys are so sensitive... You guys can call us names, make fun of our passengers and say we lie about our low fares. So when I type SWA rules, that really gets to ya, huh? Defending my company on the board and I'm arrogant
imp: ?
However, I only typed "SWA rules".
I didn't claim F9 folks don't like their team.
You guys are so sensitive... You guys can call us names, make fun of our passengers and say we lie about our low fares. So when I type SWA rules, that really gets to ya, huh? Defending my company on the board and I'm arrogant
imp: ?
Last edited:
jetalc
Button Pusher
- Joined
- Dec 7, 2003
- Posts
- 312
SWA/FO said:
Passenger
TypeTripRoutingType of FareBase FareU.S.
TaxesPFCSecurity
Fee1Passenger(s)TotalAdultDepartMDW-PHXInternet Special$187.91$17.29$3.00$2.501$210.70ReturnPHX-MDWInternet Special$187.91$17.29$4.50$2.501$212.20http://www.southwest.com/images/1x1.gif Total$375.82$34.58$7.50$5.00 $422.90
Where did you get 292.00? Maybe I'm typing something wrong in here, and it's not my intent to mislead, but this is the fare I'm looking at, even if we are talking MDW-PHX-MDW not PHX-MDW-PHX.
flyingitalian
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2003
- Posts
- 143
jetalc
Button Pusher
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Sorry To Disagree With Wall Street - The Outcome's NOT Certain
Fallout From Frontier & United's Response
To WN Denver Entry
Once Southwest announced Denver, they parrots reacted as expected.
It's a foregone conclusion, ya' know, that Southwest will enter Denver, fill up airplanes, slash and burn fare levels, and leave the rest of the carriers there in a pile of financial rubble. One Wall Street "analyst" immediately downgraded Frontier stock to "sell", causing its price to drop 25% in one day.
Chicken Littles, all of them. Worse, some of the financial types are those who make money putting out garbage like this. (Remember WestPac? The day before it filed bankruptcy, some Wall Street firm issued a report rating the carrier's stock as "out-perform.")
Here's some heresy: Southwest could get itself firmly pummeled at Denver. The financial industry bozos who manipulate stock prices have missed the point: Denver is a first for Southwest, at least in recent history. This is not entering PHL, where it had to compete with a giant high-fare cadaver. It's not RDU, where it can collect lots of passengers and stimulate traffic in the absence of a strong hubbing carrier.
Denver is different. Southwest is taking on two full-service, entrenched, hubbing airlines. In virtually every market Southwest will likely enter from Denver, it will face at least two, and often three, entrenched competitors. In many cases, there's an LCC already there. In many cases, traffic has already been substantially fare-stimulated. In all cases, consumers have seat assignment (again, not a minor issue until WN offers it.) In many cases, the competition offers in-flight entertainment.
Incumbents will match WN fares. So, which product will the consumer in the long term go for? Sorry, Southwest's history isn't germane here. It's going to be an issue of product value.
Frontier: The Ball's In Their Court. Denver is not virgin territory for Southwest. They'll have to fight for every passenger. A lot more so than any other market they've entered. And just let one or two local reporters do a service-comparison story on WN v UA or F9, and in the court of consumer opinion, Southwest could find itself far from being the darling of the community.
As we've noted above, in our studies, and at our Forecast Conference, the day's coming when LCCs will begin to fight a whole lot more aggressively with each other for share. It's coming to Denver, where virtually every potential WN market already has Frontier service.
Here's the betting: If Frontier comes out of the competitive box swinging to beat the band, they can certainly clobber WN. If Frontier hammers away at the fact they give seat assignment, inflight TV, and that they're the hometown team, WN could find itself at the short end. Frontier will need to build its flow traffic through Denver, particularly from markets that WN can't enter. It will also need to assure that its Denver ground customer service is lights-out efficient.
If they do this, they'll do fine. On the other hand, if they try a subtle approach, they could be toast. Their one main weakness: Cash. With less than $200 million on hand (which is okay for now) Southwest could see an opening to bleed Frontier out of business.
United: Less Vulnerable Than It Looks. United could be WN's worst nightmare. First, at Denver its customer service is at the top of the industry, which means strong brand loyalty from the all-important business travel sector. Second, it now has much lower labor costs than it did three years ago, meaning that it's not some lumbering winged bison waiting to be shot dead. And finally, it has a huge connecting hub at DEN that can cross-subsidize any market that WN enters.
What about TED, United's silly attempt at airline gallows humor? It's actually a disadvantage for United, because it causes brand confusion, and on a sector-cost basis, it probably has higher costs than the airplanes that have not been re-painted in yellow and white.
First of all, TED is nothing but a different paint job. Period. It's not a low cost carrier. It's not even a carrier. Fares didn't change at all with the implementation of this smoke screen. It isn't a separate operating entity, either. In fact, this TED fiasco has made United possibly less competitive with Southwest. See, the whiz-bang MBAs who hornswaggled United into this scheme apparently were oblivious to the fact that when they increased the seating on TED-painted airplanes to 156 seats, those extra six chairs over 150 necessitated yet another flight attendant. United's main problem since filing bankruptcy has been really bad, albeit expensive, advice. TED's a prime example.
Bottom Line: Southwest's Taken A Big Bite. In entering Denver, Southwest is jumping into a situation where it's taking on a lot more than it has anytime in the recent past. But, as noted above, it no longer has much choice. It must gain new huge revenue streams over the next 36 months. They're in most large markets already, Denver being the most obvious gap other than NYC. (Forget Islip - the trip on the Expressway into Manhattan isn't a real option.)
Watch for other changes at Southwest. Advance seat assignment. And maybe a new fleet mix, too.
What happens in Denver will be a watershed in WN's history. It's also a clear indication that Southwest, as good as it is, isn't invulnerable to competition.
Fallout From Frontier & United's Response
To WN Denver Entry
Once Southwest announced Denver, they parrots reacted as expected.
It's a foregone conclusion, ya' know, that Southwest will enter Denver, fill up airplanes, slash and burn fare levels, and leave the rest of the carriers there in a pile of financial rubble. One Wall Street "analyst" immediately downgraded Frontier stock to "sell", causing its price to drop 25% in one day.
Chicken Littles, all of them. Worse, some of the financial types are those who make money putting out garbage like this. (Remember WestPac? The day before it filed bankruptcy, some Wall Street firm issued a report rating the carrier's stock as "out-perform.")
Here's some heresy: Southwest could get itself firmly pummeled at Denver. The financial industry bozos who manipulate stock prices have missed the point: Denver is a first for Southwest, at least in recent history. This is not entering PHL, where it had to compete with a giant high-fare cadaver. It's not RDU, where it can collect lots of passengers and stimulate traffic in the absence of a strong hubbing carrier.
Denver is different. Southwest is taking on two full-service, entrenched, hubbing airlines. In virtually every market Southwest will likely enter from Denver, it will face at least two, and often three, entrenched competitors. In many cases, there's an LCC already there. In many cases, traffic has already been substantially fare-stimulated. In all cases, consumers have seat assignment (again, not a minor issue until WN offers it.) In many cases, the competition offers in-flight entertainment.
Incumbents will match WN fares. So, which product will the consumer in the long term go for? Sorry, Southwest's history isn't germane here. It's going to be an issue of product value.
Frontier: The Ball's In Their Court. Denver is not virgin territory for Southwest. They'll have to fight for every passenger. A lot more so than any other market they've entered. And just let one or two local reporters do a service-comparison story on WN v UA or F9, and in the court of consumer opinion, Southwest could find itself far from being the darling of the community.
As we've noted above, in our studies, and at our Forecast Conference, the day's coming when LCCs will begin to fight a whole lot more aggressively with each other for share. It's coming to Denver, where virtually every potential WN market already has Frontier service.
Here's the betting: If Frontier comes out of the competitive box swinging to beat the band, they can certainly clobber WN. If Frontier hammers away at the fact they give seat assignment, inflight TV, and that they're the hometown team, WN could find itself at the short end. Frontier will need to build its flow traffic through Denver, particularly from markets that WN can't enter. It will also need to assure that its Denver ground customer service is lights-out efficient.
If they do this, they'll do fine. On the other hand, if they try a subtle approach, they could be toast. Their one main weakness: Cash. With less than $200 million on hand (which is okay for now) Southwest could see an opening to bleed Frontier out of business.
United: Less Vulnerable Than It Looks. United could be WN's worst nightmare. First, at Denver its customer service is at the top of the industry, which means strong brand loyalty from the all-important business travel sector. Second, it now has much lower labor costs than it did three years ago, meaning that it's not some lumbering winged bison waiting to be shot dead. And finally, it has a huge connecting hub at DEN that can cross-subsidize any market that WN enters.
What about TED, United's silly attempt at airline gallows humor? It's actually a disadvantage for United, because it causes brand confusion, and on a sector-cost basis, it probably has higher costs than the airplanes that have not been re-painted in yellow and white.
First of all, TED is nothing but a different paint job. Period. It's not a low cost carrier. It's not even a carrier. Fares didn't change at all with the implementation of this smoke screen. It isn't a separate operating entity, either. In fact, this TED fiasco has made United possibly less competitive with Southwest. See, the whiz-bang MBAs who hornswaggled United into this scheme apparently were oblivious to the fact that when they increased the seating on TED-painted airplanes to 156 seats, those extra six chairs over 150 necessitated yet another flight attendant. United's main problem since filing bankruptcy has been really bad, albeit expensive, advice. TED's a prime example.
Bottom Line: Southwest's Taken A Big Bite. In entering Denver, Southwest is jumping into a situation where it's taking on a lot more than it has anytime in the recent past. But, as noted above, it no longer has much choice. It must gain new huge revenue streams over the next 36 months. They're in most large markets already, Denver being the most obvious gap other than NYC. (Forget Islip - the trip on the Expressway into Manhattan isn't a real option.)
Watch for other changes at Southwest. Advance seat assignment. And maybe a new fleet mix, too.
What happens in Denver will be a watershed in WN's history. It's also a clear indication that Southwest, as good as it is, isn't invulnerable to competition.
AnimalTale
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2004
- Posts
- 543
SWA/FO said:I think something more arrogant would be..."Hey F9 we are coming to DEN to kick your a$$" :smash: .
However, I only typed "SWA rules".
I didn't claim F9 folks don't like their team.
You guys are so sensitive... You guys can call us names, make fun of our passengers and say we lie about our low fares. So when I type SWA rules, that really gets to ya, huh? Defending my company on the board and I'm arrogant
You SHOULD always defend your company in a Modest way. SWA IS good! I always liked SWA because during the UAL "SNOB" era, SWA was kicking A$$ with a Humble attitude. I also did not understand why SWA pilots where moving from SWA to UAL or SWA to NWA. I could not understand why a SWA pilot would want to work for UAL or NWA.
I quess your past and present (SWA F/O) attitude observed on this board is bringing back some ugly memories of the bygone UAL era. You probably did not experience this because you flew corporate but ARROGANCE, in this profession, is BULL SH!T!!!!!Especially when the whole industry is taking a nose dive!
A little advice: SWA is a great, high paying and fun airline. Enjoy it for now and prepare for later because nothing lasts forever.
Sincerely and honestly.
Cya
Last edited:
AnimalTale
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2004
- Posts
- 543
Chuck Yogourt said:
Hey Chuck,
I always take your side in BOARD battles, but man you dissapoint me on this statement.
We never counted u out when NWA came into MKE. In fact, u guys kinda held your own.
HAVE A LITTLE FAITH! F9 has been battling a Giant (UAL-TED) for many years. We are doing OK.
Alaska came in to offset our ANC, PDX,SEA flights. We held our own.
ATA came in via SWA to do MDW and PHX flights: Again We did well.
I have faith in our little company. On the otherhand, AWA has been competing with SWA in LAS and PHX. They have been holding their own also.
Dont be like the F'n analyst. Wait and see, u could be surprised
Cya
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