SWA Announces DEN Routes

[flyingitalian]

what is amazing is that you people sit here and call wn walmart while the airline is making a profit and paying employees industry leading wages, and providing a product that is in demand.

go figure

 

[jetalc]

Sorry To Disagree With Wall Street - The Outcome's NOT Certain
Fallout From Frontier & United's Response
To WN Denver Entry

Once Southwest announced Denver, they parrots reacted as expected.

It's a foregone conclusion, ya' know, that Southwest will enter Denver, fill up airplanes, slash and burn fare levels, and leave the rest of the carriers there in a pile of financial rubble. One Wall Street "analyst" immediately downgraded Frontier stock to "sell", causing its price to drop 25% in one day.

Chicken Littles, all of them. Worse, some of the financial types are those who make money putting out garbage like this. (Remember WestPac? The day before it filed bankruptcy, some Wall Street firm issued a report rating the carrier's stock as "out-perform.")

Here's some heresy: Southwest could get itself firmly pummeled at Denver. The financial industry bozos who manipulate stock prices have missed the point: Denver is a first for Southwest, at least in recent history. This is not entering PHL, where it had to compete with a giant high-fare cadaver. It's not RDU, where it can collect lots of passengers and stimulate traffic in the absence of a strong hubbing carrier.

Denver is different. Southwest is taking on two full-service, entrenched, hubbing airlines. In virtually every market Southwest will likely enter from Denver, it will face at least two, and often three, entrenched competitors. In many cases, there's an LCC already there. In many cases, traffic has already been substantially fare-stimulated. In all cases, consumers have seat assignment (again, not a minor issue until WN offers it.) In many cases, the competition offers in-flight entertainment.

Incumbents will match WN fares. So, which product will the consumer in the long term go for? Sorry, Southwest's history isn't germane here. It's going to be an issue of product value.

Frontier: The Ball's In Their Court. Denver is not virgin territory for Southwest. They'll have to fight for every passenger. A lot more so than any other market they've entered. And just let one or two local reporters do a service-comparison story on WN v UA or F9, and in the court of consumer opinion, Southwest could find itself far from being the darling of the community.

As we've noted above, in our studies, and at our Forecast Conference, the day's coming when LCCs will begin to fight a whole lot more aggressively with each other for share. It's coming to Denver, where virtually every potential WN market already has Frontier service.

Here's the betting: If Frontier comes out of the competitive box swinging to beat the band, they can certainly clobber WN. If Frontier hammers away at the fact they give seat assignment, inflight TV, and that they're the hometown team, WN could find itself at the short end. Frontier will need to build its flow traffic through Denver, particularly from markets that WN can't enter. It will also need to assure that its Denver ground customer service is lights-out efficient.

If they do this, they'll do fine. On the other hand, if they try a subtle approach, they could be toast. Their one main weakness: Cash. With less than $200 million on hand (which is okay for now) Southwest could see an opening to bleed Frontier out of business.

United: Less Vulnerable Than It Looks. United could be WN's worst nightmare. First, at Denver its customer service is at the top of the industry, which means strong brand loyalty from the all-important business travel sector. Second, it now has much lower labor costs than it did three years ago, meaning that it's not some lumbering winged bison waiting to be shot dead. And finally, it has a huge connecting hub at DEN that can cross-subsidize any market that WN enters.

What about TED, United's silly attempt at airline gallows humor? It's actually a disadvantage for United, because it causes brand confusion, and on a sector-cost basis, it probably has higher costs than the airplanes that have not been re-painted in yellow and white.

First of all, TED is nothing but a different paint job. Period. It's not a low cost carrier. It's not even a carrier. Fares didn't change at all with the implementation of this smoke screen. It isn't a separate operating entity, either. In fact, this TED fiasco has made United possibly less competitive with Southwest. See, the whiz-bang MBAs who hornswaggled United into this scheme apparently were oblivious to the fact that when they increased the seating on TED-painted airplanes to 156 seats, those extra six chairs over 150 necessitated yet another flight attendant. United's main problem since filing bankruptcy has been really bad, albeit expensive, advice. TED's a prime example.

Bottom Line: Southwest's Taken A Big Bite. In entering Denver, Southwest is jumping into a situation where it's taking on a lot more than it has anytime in the recent past. But, as noted above, it no longer has much choice. It must gain new huge revenue streams over the next 36 months. They're in most large markets already, Denver being the most obvious gap other than NYC. (Forget Islip - the trip on the Expressway into Manhattan isn't a real option.)

Watch for other changes at Southwest. Advance seat assignment. And maybe a new fleet mix, too.

What happens in Denver will be a watershed in WN's history. It's also a clear indication that Southwest, as good as it is, isn't invulnerable to competition.

 

[AnimalTale]

I think something more arrogant would be..."Hey F9 we are coming to DEN to kick your a$$" :smash: .

However, I only typed "SWA rules".
I didn't claim F9 folks don't like their team.

You guys are so sensitive... You guys can call us names, make fun of our passengers and say we lie about our low fares. So when I type SWA rules, that really gets to ya, huh? Defending my company on the board and I'm arrogant imp: ?

You SHOULD always defend your company in a Modest way. SWA IS good! I always liked SWA because during the UAL "SNOB" era, SWA was kicking A$$ with a Humble attitude. I also did not understand why SWA pilots where moving from SWA to UAL or SWA to NWA. I could not understand why a SWA pilot would want to work for UAL or NWA.

I quess your past and present (SWA F/O) attitude observed on this board is bringing back some ugly memories of the bygone UAL era. You probably did not experience this because you flew corporate but ARROGANCE, in this profession, is BULL SH!T!!!!!Especially when the whole industry is taking a nose dive!

A little advice: SWA is a great, high paying and fun airline. Enjoy it for now and prepare for later because nothing lasts forever.

Sincerely and honestly.

Cya

 

[SWA GUY]

Wellll...... seems WN is getting a good bashing here and without provocation.

I suggest anger management classes. If that doesn't work try kicking the dog/wife/children, not in that particular order.

 

[AnimalTale]

F9 will be screwed.

Hey Chuck,

I always take your side in BOARD battles, but man you dissapoint me on this statement.

We never counted u out when NWA came into MKE. In fact, u guys kinda held your own.

HAVE A LITTLE FAITH! F9 has been battling a Giant (UAL-TED) for many years. We are doing OK.

Alaska came in to offset our ANC, PDX,SEA flights. We held our own.

ATA came in via SWA to do MDW and PHX flights: Again We did well.

I have faith in our little company. On the otherhand, AWA has been competing with SWA in LAS and PHX. They have been holding their own also.

Dont be like the F'n analyst. Wait and see, u could be surprised

Cya

 

[USMC319]

Wellll...... seems WN is getting a good bashing here and without provocation.

I suggest anger management classes. If that doesn't work try kicking the dog/wife/children, not in that particular order.

Not at all SWA GUY. I think nipping any arrogance in the bud would be a better anaysis. You will find most Frontier guys to be a first class group that respects those that respect them. From your profile, I assume you remember the days of the arrogant UAL, DAL, NWA, AA pilots, I'd hate to see the good folks at SWA fall into that category.

 

[jetalc]

Wellll...... seems WN is getting a good bashing here and without provocation.

I suggest anger management classes. If that doesn't work try kicking the dog/wife/children, not in that particular order.

Bashing? Because we're doing something other than singing the praises of the "almight WN?" C'mon - get over yourself. This is just a friendly discussion - not everybody has been drinking the WN Koolaid. It's a big world out there, and hopefully there will be enough to go around for everyone. Nobody's going to "win" in Denver. and I for one, don't wish for SWA to "get their butts kicked" at DIA. It would have been nice to have heard a little more humility from the likes of yourself, but c'est la vie. I don't need anger management, and your suggestion that anyone else on this thread does is simply a lame copout.

Good luck in Denver. I don't believe you'll see anyone at Frontier just "roll over" and watch what we've worked our butts off for disappear just because there's yet another player in town. Welcome to the game.

 

[FlyinGuy]

Remember that this is a very small anonomyus group speaking on behalf of SWA. To compare the arrogance of a group of pilots based on this board is just plane "nuts". The employees at SWA have worked hard for many years to rise to the top and their efforts are finally paying off. Like most everyone at any airline out there, we are just trying to make a good career for ourselves and support our families.

Let the bashing continue....

 

[AnimalTale]

Remember that this is a very small anonomyus group speaking on behalf of SWA. To compare the arrogance of a group of pilots based on this board is just plane "nuts". The employees at SWA have worked hard for many years to rise to the top and their efforts are finally paying off. Like most everyone at any airline out there, we are just trying to make a good career for ourselves and support our families.

Let the bashing continue....

Spoken like a true gentleman! I AGREE.

 

[jetalc]

Remember that this is a very small anonomyus group speaking on behalf of SWA. To compare the arrogance of a group of pilots based on this board is just plane "nuts". The employees at SWA have worked hard for many years to rise to the top and their efforts are finally paying off. Like most everyone at any airline out there, we are just trying to make a good career for ourselves and support our families.

Let the bashing continue....

Very good point - thanks for reminding us of that. I don't think we were so much bashing SWA as much as responding to a few select knuckleheads. Every company's got 'em. I have ultimate respect for most of the SWA pilots, and each of us should expect nothing less than the utmost professionalism. Sorry if it got personal or out of hand.
:beer:

 

[mamba20]

So I take it that jetalc is in the next interview pool?

 

[jetalc]

So I take it that jetalc is in the next interview pool?

LOL - how'd you guess?

 

[Special Ed]

Hey Pipe, just wanted to know where your airport "class" was when WestPac and Frontier were battling it out at Den by selling $39 fares. I was at Westpac, and we carried lots of folks whose baggage was either paper or plastic. Then again, I never understood back then why someone from Denver would pay $1200 for a round trip ticket to Seattle on United, when you could do the same on someone else for a third or less...
Frontier and SWA are good airlines... the city and people of Denver will be better off with a little more competition, unless you want to go back to the basic monopoly that UAL had before F9 (and any other airline that serves that city)
One last thing, to those of you who accuse SW pilots of being overpaid... the fact is they are more efficient than any other airlines. It used to be most pilots at the majors bragged about well they were paid, and how little they flew. You simply don't have that argument at SWA. A pilot can, and does make good money, but he/she is also working more than most to get it. I used to have 42 hr layovers at a Major carrier I worked for... WTF... no wonder they can't make money. Like it or not, SWA is the model of efficiency, and most other carriers could do well to learn from them.

 

[pipe]

WN pilots are not overpaid. They get jack squat in non-salary compensation. UAL for example (and I do not work there) gets another 35% in non-salary compenstaion. WN - nada (unless you count the "bet" that are stock options).

PIPE

 

[OffHot]

Pipe your miss informing the public again. Nada you say. I suggest you look again. For example what do you or United pay for health care?

 

[pipe]

Off Hot-

I pay about $90/month currently. Full medical PPO, vision, dental. This is for family coverage. Blue Cross/Blue Shield.

UAL pilots pay about $190/month for full family medical/dental. Blue Cross/Blue Shield.

F9 - about $350/month for full family medical.

Shall I go on? You're right. I have no idea what I'm talking about.

PIPE

 

[OffHot]

Man thats a lot Pipe, I pay about $50 for what you get, thats $140 a month less than UA. Were eating into your 35% non-salary compensation and we haven't talked stock options. We wont carry this any further but our non-salary compensation is good with the exception that we don't have a DB plan, and those thanks to these fearless judges in BK court are leaving quickly elsewhere. So you are correct you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[737tanker]

Pipe
I got full family coverage via Blue Cross, full dental. and vision at SWA. This is all for $14 per month. Don't forget we also get profit sharing and over 7% match on our 401K. All in addition to our salary.

 

[HalinTexas]

Y'all are hurtin' my wallet.

Must be nice.

 

[mdf]

Southwest = Wal-Mart. .

I don't know what everyone has against Wal-Mart. I mean where else can you run in and get a bag of beef jerky, and jumper cables?