SWA/Airtran Process Agreement??

[Just thinking]

Delta has already stepped up the pace in ATL, just look at the number of mainline aircraft that are now occupying gates on the C and D concourses that were shared gates on "D" or RJ gates on "C".

 

[texman]

Z

That would be wonderful, the sooner the better. I think it will be important to move as quickly as possible not only for our benefit but to counter any moves by Delta in Atlanta.

I agree.

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

____________

Fast forward to the end of 2010 and lets see how the analysts predictions turned out.

At the end of 2010, AirTran had losses that totaled over $400m. The following is quoted from the SWA 10K for FY10
"As of December 31, 2010, AirTran had federal net operating loss carryforwards (“NOLs”) of approximately $477 million available to offset future taxable income, which are not currently subject to an annual limitation under Section 382 of the Internal Revenue Code (the “Code”). The NOLs expire between 2017 and 2030."

My intent is not to slam my future brothers and sisters but to simply point out some fiscal realities to what transpired for 2010 financially. If I offended any AirTran persons, my apologies.

SWA will use these losses to offset future gains. While this is a plus short-term wise for SWA, it is not a badge of honor to have such losses that most airlines would point to as being a goal for a company to achieve.

I support the merger and am happy it is progressing forward; it is however not a merger of equals or similar companies financially healthwise either IMHO.

Actually, AirTran had a profit for full year 2010. The NOL's are from previous years that can be carried forward to future years to offset tax liability on future profits. This may or may not carryforward to WN. If it does, it will be a nice addition to the over 400M in cash (close to 900M in value). The above quote was obviously taken from SWAPA LUV and doesn't tell the whole story.

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

SWAPA LUV must've simply forgotten to add this gem from the 2010 Annual Report to Shareholders.

"The Company has historically been regarded as a growth airline; however, the combination of a difficult
economic environment and growing costs led to the Company’s decision to curtail organic growth during 2007,​

2008, 2009, and 2010 and for the indefinite future." emphasis mine.

 

[Bwipilot]

If we drink G/Ks koolaid and believe we will hire another 1000 pilots post merger, the issues we are discussing will be moot.

This is an extremely ignorant statement.

 

[jonjuan]

SWAPA LUV must've simply forgotten to add this gem from the 2010 Annual Report to Shareholders.

"The Company has historically been regarded as a growth airline; however, the combination of a difficult
economic environment and growing costs led to the Company’s decision to curtail organic growth during 2007,​

2008, 2009, and 2010 and for the indefinite future." emphasis mine.

Wait a cotton picking second. Where did you find that BS? You know darn well the zero growth since 2007 was to stockpile cash to buy aai last year.

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

That's kind of the point, we can all pick and choose snippets to support our side or twist them to support our side.

 

[Lonestar]

The pilots with the most unreasonable expectations will be the ones who will be bitter.

Ty, I agree with this statement completely. The problem for me is how you define reasonalbe and unreasonable expectations. The vast differences in nearly every aspect of a career at SWA vs AAI ia undeniable, yet y'all continue to banter on about how none of it matters. If you're right, then I guess I'm unreasonable. But somehow I think all these things will matter in the end.

Most likely, each side will view the others' position as unresonable. So we all know where that takes us. Good luck going in with OUR SWA mgmt as your sole source to try to convince a panel how bright the outlook was for trannies.

 

[Bill Nelson]

Wait a cotton picking second. Where did you find that BS? You know darn well the zero growth since 2007 was to stockpile cash to buy aai last year.

Were these the same years AirTran was furloughing and selling airframes or was that another set of years?

 

[Lonestar]

Our sole argument? Really? Is that what you think?

Let's see, we bring new aircraft deliveries, a half dozen Caribbean/Mexican destinations, slots in the northeast, Class II navigation, two dozen + gates at the worlds busiest airport and let's see...hmm...oh yeah, expansion and upgrades.

Yes, that's exactly what I think. Your guys will stomp their feet and whine, Cry Baby Katz might do just that, and your sole argument will be, "But mommy, that's not fair."

And btw, notice what is bold in your quote above. Let's be clear; your fifty new aircraft deliveries won't change much at an airline with nearly 550 already. And as far as upgrades goes, those fifty aircraft (assuming AAI even took delivery to all as opposed to selling some as has been the case in the past) aren't even enough to upgrade half of your own first officers. And I don't recall a single statement mentioning AAI's plans for the next aircraft to continue any growth.

These are just a few of the facts that will be presented to a panel of arbitrators. Your only counter will be, "But mommy, that's not fair." These facts will be confirmed by our mgmt. They will also be confirmed by your mgmt, which is to say also our mgmt. Good luck!

 

[carl p]

You know my one fear in all this...

The two Merger Committees come up with an SLI that's a little worse than what we at AAI thought would happen (slightly less than DOH but not greatly so, but WAY less than relative for ANY seniority/seat demographic), the ratio puts pilots from both sides in the middle and the bottom, basically what we would consider a "win" for SWA but without a staple and then,,, it fails SWA member ratification by a very small amount, basically the people that believe a staple is fair.

Then we go to arbitration... and the arbitrators rule on something much more favorable to AAI pilots. Basically SWA pilots giving up something "more than fair" and getting less than the negotiated SLI in the arbitration award and they become angry and bitter, thus ruining the culture.

Having experienced arbitration first-hand, I'm here to tell you... YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT AN ARBITRATOR MIGHT DO. They come up with their own ideas of right and wrong, even when it's contrary to what the vast majority would agree with, and they have a tendency to split awards to make both sides equally aggravated, thus ensuring they get future business. They're not appointed, they're CHOSEN by both sides in the strike/counter-strike process.

Knowing that, it would behoove EVERYONE to stop with the "we're going to kick your tail in arbitration" crap. Really... it doesn't help anyone, and the other side isn't buying it. On either side of the table. And it only serves to make people dig their heels in and not find a mutual solution "fair", or just say no out of spite. That kind of thing might lead us down a scenario you see above and that would be a very, very bad thing.

Be careful what you wish for in arbitration... Let the MC/NC do their jobs and remember that with arbitration, no matter HOW stacked you think the deck is in your favor, you have NO control of the outcome. More than one ruling went completely sideways from where either party expected to be, of that the history books are VERY clear on.

Just my .02 cents for the day. Ya'll fly safe now.

Great post. I know we have a very healthy dose of respect for SWA and our potential brothers at SWAPA, but I fear from months of reading that we are viewed with much less respect from them. The best way to move forward and preserve culture is through mutual respect. As a company we are not a true equal to SWA yet, but we are a worthy competitor who is climbing the same ladder they did years ago. If you can acknowledge that, then you should be able to respect the pilot group that has built AT into a worthy competitor without the advantage of your workplace culture. Get to that point and you just might see the potential for all of us moving forward.

 

[SWA/FO]

It is not unlikely at all that the MC/NC will come up with something reasonable, and the "Baghdad Bobby and Billys", the "Orange Bellies" and the "Roughnecks" will vote it down, and the Arbitrators will hand down something far "worse" than what they voted down.

The pilots with the most unreasonable expectations will be the ones who will be bitter.

You must be talking about the trannies?

 

[GuppyWN]

Really man?.... If it doesn't go the way someone wants, you think they will sit their grand kids on their knee and say " sonny.... I was there back in the day when that awful tragedy of the SWA/AAI SLI was awarded."

Not saying it's not important, just step back and take a deep breath. The folks on the MC's will make it fair and equitable.

Have you and CMonBoard been in the industry long?

WN bought Morris in 1994. We've STILL got guys that feel like they got screwed on that deal and they are now in the top 20% of any domicile making $250/yr, every holiday/weekend off and 5 weeks vacation.

I'm confident that we will come to an agreement amicably and I'm not worried about Gups seniority but I do this deal will be talked about until we AND the next guys are sick of it.

Grab your negotiator - It's ON!

Gup

 

[Kharma Police]

Yes, that's exactly what I think. Your guys will stomp their feet and whine, Cry Baby Katz might do just that, and your sole argument will be, "But mommy, that's not fair."

And btw, notice what is bold in your quote above. Let's be clear; your fifty new aircraft deliveries won't change much at an airline with nearly 550 already. And as far as upgrades goes, those fifty aircraft (assuming AAI even took delivery to all as opposed to selling some as has been the case in the past) aren't even enough to upgrade half of your own first officers. And I don't recall a single statement mentioning AAI's plans for the next aircraft to continue any growth.

These are just a few of the facts that will be presented to a panel of arbitrators. Your only counter will be, "But mommy, that's not fair." These facts will be confirmed by our mgmt. They will also be confirmed by your mgmt, which is to say also our mgmt. Good luck!

If you feel you've got a hot hand and the pit boss is in your corner, roll the dice my friend and demand arbitration! Just don't be pissed if you crap out.......

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

Not to be contentious, but AAI guys always try to ignore the SLI between Chautaqua and Shuttle America, which started the integration of the S/A guys at around 30% from the bottom and resulted in a large number of them stapled. When it's pointed out that the Chq/SA SLI was an arbitrated result that followed the guidelines of Allegheny/Mohawk, the stock answer is that "SA was in bankruptcy, so it isn't a similar situation". My answer to that is, yes SA was in bankruptcy, but the similarities in the contractual disparities (50-80% across the board on Sept. 27th) were there and are still there (30-50% across the board post-new contract), and SA at least had the excuse of being in bankruptcy as to why their contract didn't even come close to Chq's. And the contractual gains that were going to be enjoyed by the SA pilots was a major part of the arbitrators award, regardless of how they came to be.

I'm not saying that I think we should expect the same result or even try to get something similar, but I do think that makes it every bit, if not more, applicable as any "precedent" that was established by USA/AWA or DAL/NWA, IMHO. Of course I have an opinion of what would be fair and equitable, which I will not share as per our unions directive. I will, however, point out that AAI F/O's becoming SWA F/O's with their current longevity would be the equivalent of or greater than an upgrade at AAI. Since I'm assuming that most of the F/O's at AAI would take the upgrade if offered by AAI (sans this integration), thus trading their seniority as an F/O for juniority as a CA with the accompanying 50% pay raise, I would say that result in this case would be more than fair and equitable. Again, just my opinion. The CA side is a little tougher, but if the CA seat was the end all be all, we'd all have stayed fat, dumb, and happy as regional CA's.

Contrary to Ty's assertion that seniority is forever, as airline pilots we often trade in our "seniority" for a better standard of living for our families. I'm sorry that in this case, it might not be voluntary, but there are worse things that could happen to your career than the marriage of AAI and SWA. I think SWA guys just hope that we can say the same thing when this is all over.

Respectfully and Fraternally,
PapaWoody

Crickets...again. Shocking.

 

[redflyer65]

Let's see, we bring new aircraft deliveries, a half dozen Caribbean/Mexican destinations, slots in the northeast, Class II navigation, two dozen + gates at the worlds busiest airport and let's see...hmm...oh yeah, expansion and upgrades.

That's your arguement? Your trying talking about company items vs contract issues. Apples and oranges.

What does the AAI contract bring the Southwest group?

What does the Southwest contract bring the AAI pilot group? The differences are staggering, and very definable. Gonna be an interesting arguement to say the least.

 

[On Your Six]

Ty, I agree with this statement completely. The problem for me is how you define reasonalbe and unreasonable expectations. The vast differences in nearly every aspect of a career at SWA vs AAI ia undeniable, yet y'all continue to banter on about how none of it matters. If you're right, then I guess I'm unreasonable. But somehow I think all these things will matter in the end.

Most likely, each side will view the others' position as unresonable. So we all know where that takes us. Good luck going in with OUR SWA mgmt as your sole source to try to convince a panel how bright the outlook was for trannies.

Arbitration will decide what is "unreasonable.". Yet, most of you SWA pilots fear it. Let someone neutral decide what is fair.


OYS

 

[Kharma Police]

Crickets...again. Shocking.

WOW!, I hear the same crickets too when somebody brings up DAL/NWA!!!!!

 

[General Lee]

ATLplt, I really don't think you get it. The same goes for a large number of your group.

First, there is NO precedent for this scenario. An airline 4 times the size of yours ACQUIRES yours. The acquiring airline's pilots make 50-70% more pay with better benefits, schedules, no furloughs, etc.

Second, the facts are that your airline couldn't sustain your sub-par labor contracts. They couldn't sustain growth. They can't sustain the current fuel prices. They can't overcome the debt vs. lack of assets. These facts will be confirmed by your new boss. Bob Jordan of Southwest Airlines. Bob answers only to Gary Kelly. Our boss, who knows the value of culture.

If y'all choose arbitration, your sole argument will be that of a three year old- "Because its not fair!"

Good luck with that one.

You mean like AA buying battered TWA? That end result will NEVER happen again, that is known. But you then say the facts state his airline couldn't sustain the labor contracts? What if all 6 of those 737s actually came apart inflight and killed everyone in one day? Then your own contracts wouldn't have been able to sustain your airline, and could have lead it to BK. Things happen, things change. If you are so confident about your own position, then as OYS says, go to arbitration. The USAir East guys were confident about their own position, since they were TWICE as big as AWA. They learned something really quick, and then turned into super babies. Your cockiness will lead you down the same path. I don't think you will have a lot of Airtran pilots at the top of your combined list, but there will be some Captians mixed in there, and the middle of the list will have a lot. What does that mean for any SWA guy at the bottom of your current list? It means it may be awhile before an upgrade. That is what happens in mergers. Give your case to an arbitrator, and see what happens. OYS is right.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

You know my one fear in all this...

The two Merger Committees come up with an SLI that's a little worse than what we at AAI thought would happen (slightly less than DOH but not greatly so, but WAY less than relative for ANY seniority/seat demographic), the ratio puts pilots from both sides in the middle and the bottom, basically what we would consider a "win" for SWA but without a staple and then,,, it fails SWA member ratification by a very small amount, basically the people that believe a staple is fair.

Then we go to arbitration... and the arbitrators rule on something much more favorable to AAI pilots. Basically SWA pilots giving up something "more than fair" and getting less than the negotiated SLI in the arbitration award and they become angry and bitter, thus ruining the culture.

Having experienced arbitration first-hand, I'm here to tell you... YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT AN ARBITRATOR MIGHT DO. They come up with their own ideas of right and wrong, even when it's contrary to what the vast majority would agree with, and they have a tendency to split awards to make both sides equally aggravated, thus ensuring they get future business. They're not appointed, they're CHOSEN by both sides in the strike/counter-strike process.

Knowing that, it would behoove EVERYONE to stop with the "we're going to kick your tail in arbitration" crap. Really... it doesn't help anyone, and the other side isn't buying it. On either side of the table. And it only serves to make people dig their heels in and not find a mutual solution "fair", or just say no out of spite. That kind of thing might lead us down a scenario you see above and that would be a very, very bad thing.

Be careful what you wish for in arbitration... Let the MC/NC do their jobs and remember that with arbitration, no matter HOW stacked you think the deck is in your favor, you have NO control of the outcome. More than one ruling went completely sideways from where either party expected to be, of that the history books are VERY clear on.

Just my .02 cents for the day. Ya'll fly safe now.

When entering arbitration, each side has lawyers that try to prove their case infront of the arbitrators. Each side has an opinion, and they also try to gain advantage somehow for their side, knowing that the arbitrators COULD split it down the middle between sides. You just can't go for the eventual outcome, you need to go for a "plus" on your side, even a bit outrageous. Dalpa's initial offer for arbitration was very one sided, with year 2000 hires at Delta being blended in with early 97 hires at NWA. That was a stretch, but you have to go a bit overboard to get the desired outcome somewhere in the middle hopefully. NWA wanted DOH, which was weighted in NWA's favor thanks to Delta retiring 2000 Captains before BK. Delta's group was a lot younger thanks to those retirements, but the arbitrators looked at the fleets and which planes were being retired, and decided on a outcome. They also looked at NWA retirements, and moved the list accordingly to try to fairly account for NWA's eventual retirements. In the end, it was binding, and people abide by it if they have honor and integrity. (a swipe at those USAir East jerks) Arbitration shouldn't be feared, because those judges will take everything into account. It's a lot more fair than people deciding who themselves have a stake in the outcome. You have no idea if SWAPA will offer ALPA negotiators SWAPA jobs after the SLI is over with. When an arbitration judgement comes out, everyone can blame them for the outcome, not each other. Don't fear it. Don't give in because SWAPA tells you THEY are giving you a raise, when in reality it is the management.



Bye Bye--General Lee