SWA/Airtran Process Agreement??

[General Lee]

I knew my post's would make you come out. Where have you been? Question? Do you know that it will go to arbitration? Can you explain how Delta got that great contract back in the day. Who did Delta piggy back off of?

I have been flying a lot of Asia trips, and sometimes I don't have a good Wifi connection, or I would rather sit on the beach and relax. As far as whether or not you guys will go to arbitration, I don't know for sure, but if the terms are not acceptable to the majority of the AT pilots, I bet you will then. If you try to force too much of a ratio, or not allow a significant amount of their Captains to remain Captains in a combined list, then anyone would think they would choose arbitration. Back in the day Delta used the phrase "United plus 1" when we were negotiating the C2K contract, but before that we got new 777s without a payrate. When they showed up on property, Dalpa refused to fly them. Leo Mullin was Chairman at the time, and he decided to give in to Dalpa's demands, which was a raise for EVERY plane Delta had, and a big one. We forced their hand. Then United got their big contract, and we added to our 777 agreement to get an even bigger raise. So, part of it was from our own deal with the new 777s, and part of it was piggybacking off of UAL. Our 777 Captains made $315 an hour. (double that for greenslips on your day off) Granted, we didn't have that many planes, but those guys hit the lottery. And before you state that our payrates helped with our BK, remember we also had a Comair strike that cost $1 billion, 9-11, and then when thoughts of BK leaked out, 2000 Captains left with their lump sum pensions, and many left with $1 million or more. The payrates were a fixed cost. Your current payrates and benefits (like 90 trips min on reserve with 105 average for your pilots per month) amounted to more than what we had total, because we had furloughed pilots and were limited to what we could have per month back prior to BK. (maybe 75 hours a month max, and then the rest put into a bank) Our payrates were great, but we couldn't see them to max due to the pilots on furlough, which was fine with me at the time. That's the story.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[CMonBoard]

I disagree, Gup. Generations? Really? I don't think it will go down that way with smart people on either side.

If it goes bad for me, with retirements and growth, I think it will be even. If it goes bad for you, it won't be any different. In the next 25 years, over 80% of each list will turn over. And that's assuming "we" (I know I can't really say that until 5/2) don't grow one iota.

 

[General Lee]

When this is "all over" in 10 years, 1080 WN pilots and 150 FL pilots will retire. In 15 it will be over 2100 and 360 respectively. It doesn't matter; you guys can discuss this all you want, but the movement from the retirements and the growth will exceed the "movements" by the General and OYS on their Asia layovers.

First off, it looks like according to his profile, OYS is an A320 FO, which means no Asia for him. I do fly a lot of that, and it is FANTASTIC. No corndogs in sight, and nice beaches in the Marianas and Palau. Looking at the numbers, 1200 or so SWA pilots leave in 10 years (according to the above with the Airtran guys), which means about 120 a year. That isn't great. "Movement" isn't created in your airline compared to a Legacy, because you only have one or two plane types. When a Widebody Capt retires at a Legacy, 20 or so movements happen, from Widebody Captains moving up from A330 to 744, all the way down to the DC9 FO moving up to the MD88. In 15 years, your retirements gets a little better, but not much. Retirements mean a lot to QOL and pay, and since it appears that your domestic growth is limited by airport size and gates, and grandiose INTL plans that may or may not ever happen, stagnation is a distinct possibility sans mass retirements. The Airtran group just seems like a young group overall to me. Delta, on the other hand, has 7600 planed to go within the next 15 years, and a chunk of that is sooner rather than later. That could really help with QOL and upgrades sooner, which can help your overall career. If you think current payrates and benefits here are here to stay, then you also haven't got a clue. Thanks to your whole group getting high pay, that alone will help our cause.

And when it comes to my own "movements", I have plenty of time to relax and enjoy them on my one leg days in Asia at a nice hotel, while you have to squat in your cramped, nasty 737 bathrooms and do it since you are running late and still haven't done the walkaround in ELP after just flying in from HOU. Enjoy it.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Tweet-a-Lishus]

There you go Papa Woody making sense again!

 

[Lonestar]

madjack, What is so contentious about a group of neutrals that take facts and precedent and rule on what is presented from BOTH sides?

ATLplt, I really don't think you get it. The same goes for a large number of your group.

First, there is NO precedent for this scenario. An airline 4 times the size of yours ACQUIRES yours. The acquiring airline's pilots make 50-70% more pay with better benefits, schedules, no furloughs, etc.

Second, the facts are that your airline couldn't sustain your sub-par labor contracts. They couldn't sustain growth. They can't sustain the current fuel prices. They can't overcome the debt vs. lack of assets. These facts will be confirmed by your new boss. Bob Jordan of Southwest Airlines. Bob answers only to Gary Kelly. Our boss, who knows the value of culture.

If y'all choose arbitration, your sole argument will be that of a three year old- "Because its not fair!"

Good luck with that one.

 

[Kharma Police]

ATLplt, I really don't think you get it. The same goes for a large number of your group.

First, there is NO precedent for this scenario. An airline 4 times the size of yours ACQUIRES yours. The acquiring airline's pilots make 50-70% more pay with better benefits, schedules, no furloughs, etc.

Second, the facts are that your airline couldn't sustain your sub-par labor contracts. They couldn't sustain growth. They can't sustain the current fuel prices. They can't overcome the debt vs. lack of assets. These facts will be confirmed by your new boss. Bob Jordan of Southwest Airlines. Bob answers only to Gary Kelly. Our boss, who knows the value of culture.

If y'all choose arbitration, your sole argument will be that of a three year old- "Because its not fair!"

Good luck with that one.

Strange, using your facts and information, you guys should be demanding arbitration but for some reason are not. Sounds like a slam dunk win for you, you should push for it with SWAPA..............

 

[SWA/CA]

First, there is NO precedent for this scenario. An airline 4 times the size of yours ACQUIRES yours. The acquiring airline's pilots make 50-70% more pay with better benefits, schedules, no furloughs, etc.

Second, the facts are that your airline couldn't sustain your sub-par labor contracts. They couldn't sustain growth. They can't sustain the current fuel prices. They can't overcome the debt vs. lack of assets. These facts will be confirmed by your new boss. Bob Jordan of Southwest Airlines. Bob answers only to Gary Kelly. Our boss, who knows the value of culture.

If y'all choose arbitration, your sole argument will be that of a three year old- "Because its not fair!"

EXACTLY! bring on arbitration.

 

[Wesb737fo]

True but if this deal goes bad it'll create ripples for GENERATIONS, not years.

Gup

Really man?.... If it doesn't go the way someone wants, you think they will sit their grand kids on their knee and say " sonny.... I was there back in the day when that awful tragedy of the SWA/AAI SLI was awarded."

Not saying it's not important, just step back and take a deep breath. The folks on the MC's will make it fair and equitable.

 

[-9Capt]

An airline 4 times the size of yours ACQUIRES yours. The acquiring airline's pilots make 50-70% more pay with better benefits, schedules, no furloughs, etc.

Your pay, schedules and benefits are part of your CBA. Your CBA has an ammendable date. There is no guarantee those benefits will continue. Actually, history all but guarantees they won't. An arbitrator knows this.

If y'all choose arbitration, your sole argument will be that of a three year old- "Because its not fair!"

Good luck with that one.

Exactly right, "fair and equitable" just like the law requires...and what's more "fair" than keeping your current seniority. Neither side gains, neither side loses. It sounds like some of you are looking to boost your seniority at the expense of others. Good luck with that.

 

[ATLplt]

Strange, using your facts and information, you guys should be demanding arbitration but for some reason are not. Sounds like a slam dunk win for you, you should push for it with SWAPA..............

Exactly what I was thinking.

Lonestar, it's all so clear now. Thanks, and good luck to you too. *snicker*

 

[-9Capt]

If y'all choose arbitration, your sole argument will be that of a three year old- "Because its not fair!"

Good luck with that one.

Our sole argument? Really? Is that what you think?

Let's see, we bring new aircraft deliveries, a half dozen Caribbean/Mexican destinations, slots in the northeast, Class II navigation, two dozen + gates at the worlds busiest airport and let's see...hmm...oh yeah, expansion and upgrades.

 

[Lear70]

EXACTLY! bring on arbitration.

You know my one fear in all this...

The two Merger Committees come up with an SLI that's a little worse than what we at AAI thought would happen (slightly less than DOH but not greatly so, but WAY less than relative for ANY seniority/seat demographic), the ratio puts pilots from both sides in the middle and the bottom, basically what we would consider a "win" for SWA but without a staple and then,,, it fails SWA member ratification by a very small amount, basically the people that believe a staple is fair.

Then we go to arbitration... and the arbitrators rule on something much more favorable to AAI pilots. Basically SWA pilots giving up something "more than fair" and getting less than the negotiated SLI in the arbitration award and they become angry and bitter, thus ruining the culture.

Having experienced arbitration first-hand, I'm here to tell you... YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT AN ARBITRATOR MIGHT DO. They come up with their own ideas of right and wrong, even when it's contrary to what the vast majority would agree with, and they have a tendency to split awards to make both sides equally aggravated, thus ensuring they get future business. They're not appointed, they're CHOSEN by both sides in the strike/counter-strike process.

Knowing that, it would behoove EVERYONE to stop with the "we're going to kick your tail in arbitration" crap. Really... it doesn't help anyone, and the other side isn't buying it. On either side of the table. And it only serves to make people dig their heels in and not find a mutual solution "fair", or just say no out of spite. That kind of thing might lead us down a scenario you see above and that would be a very, very bad thing.

Be careful what you wish for in arbitration... Let the MC/NC do their jobs and remember that with arbitration, no matter HOW stacked you think the deck is in your favor, you have NO control of the outcome. More than one ruling went completely sideways from where either party expected to be, of that the history books are VERY clear on.

Just my .02 cents for the day. Ya'll fly safe now.

 

[Kharma Police]

You know my one fear in all this...

The two Merger Committees come up with an SLI that's a little worse than what we at AAI thought would happen (slightly less than DOH but not greatly so, but WAY less than relative for ANY seniority/seat demographic), the ratio puts pilots from both sides in the middle and the bottom, basically what we would consider a "win" for SWA but without a staple and then,,, it fails SWA member ratification by a very small amount, basically the people that believe a staple is fair.

Then we go to arbitration... and the arbitrators rule on something much more favorable to AAI pilots. Basically SWA pilots giving up something "more than fair" and getting less than the negotiated SLI in the arbitration award and they become angry and bitter, thus ruining the culture.

Having experienced arbitration first-hand, I'm here to tell you... YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT AN ARBITRATOR MIGHT DO. They come up with their own ideas of right and wrong, even when it's contrary to what the vast majority would agree with, and they have a tendency to split awards to make both sides equally aggravated, thus ensuring they get future business. They're not appointed, they're CHOSEN by both sides in the strike/counter-strike process.

Knowing that, it would behoove EVERYONE to stop with the "we're going to kick your tail in arbitration" crap. Really... it doesn't help anyone, and the other side isn't buying it. On either side of the table. And it only serves to make people dig their heels in and not find a mutual solution "fair", or just say no out of spite. That kind of thing might lead us down a scenario you see above and that would be a very, very bad thing.

Be careful what you wish for in arbitration... Let the MC/NC do their jobs and remember that with arbitration, no matter HOW stacked you think the deck is in your favor, you have NO control of the outcome. More than one ruling went completely sideways from where either party expected to be, of that the history books are VERY clear on.

Just my .02 cents for the day. Ya'll fly safe now.

Very good points. In my opinion, there are many at Southwest that have the perception that since they, "have nothing to gain from this" will vote down any proposal that isn't a staple. I believe it will all depend on what kind of incentives Daddy Gary throws at our stepbrothers to vote yes.

 

[jball2]

Personal opinion from a SWA guy who who took a step back for a while. I think it will be a negotiated solution that is very complex but when we see it most of us will say " I can see that." I bet it happens by July. JMHO.

 

[chase]

The article below is from Jan 2010:

AKRON, Ohio --AirTran Holdings Inc., operator of discount carrier AirTran Airways, reported record fourth quarter and annual profits this morning.
AirTran had net income of $134.7 million or 95 cents per diluted share for all of 2009 and net income of $17.1 million, or 11 cents per diluted share for the fourth quarter.


The carrier joined a small group of airlines that posted profits in the fourth quarter. Continental Airlines surprised analysts in announcing last week that it squeezed out a fourth-quarter profit of $85 million, or 60 cents a share.


AirTran executive Bob Fornara said his airline's results during one of the most trying economic times in decades "shows that customers are very attracted to our unique combination of high-quality, low-cost service."


Standard & Poor's on Monday upgraded its opinion on shares of AirTran Holdings to "buy" from "hold." S&P said AirTran has a bright outlook for 2010 and projected a 9 percent gain on revenues based on more ticket sales and higher pricing. It said the recent rise in fuel prices will cut earnings per share. But S&P said AirTran's shares trade at a large discount compared to its peers, giving the stock upside potential.


AirTran's said its annual net income was an improvement of over $400 million compared with 2008.

____________

Fast forward to the end of 2010 and lets see how the analysts predictions turned out.

At the end of 2010, AirTran had losses that totaled over $400m. The following is quoted from the SWA 10K for FY10
"As of December 31, 2010, AirTran had federal net operating loss carryforwards (“NOLs”) of approximately $477 million available to offset future taxable income, which are not currently subject to an annual limitation under Section 382 of the Internal Revenue Code (the “Code”). The NOLs expire between 2017 and 2030."

My intent is not to slam my future brothers and sisters but to simply point out some fiscal realities to what transpired for 2010 financially. If I offended any AirTran persons, my apologies.

SWA will use these losses to offset future gains. While this is a plus short-term wise for SWA, it is not a badge of honor to have such losses that most airlines would point to as being a goal for a company to achieve.

I support the merger and am happy it is progressing forward; it is however not a merger of equals or similar companies financially healthwise either IMHO.

 

[Kharma Police]

Personal opinion from a SWA guy who who took a step back for a while. I think it will be a negotiated solution that is very complex but when we see it most of us will say " I can see that." I bet it happens by July. JMHO.

That would be wonderful, the sooner the better. I think it will be important to move as quickly as possible not only for our benefit but to counter any moves by Delta in Atlanta.

 

[jball2]

Delta is still in the board room trying to figure out what happened back in sept! ;-)

 

[Ty Webb]

It is not unlikely at all that the MC/NC will come up with something reasonable, and the "Baghdad Bobby and Billys", the "Orange Bellies" and the "Roughnecks" will vote it down, and the Arbitrators will hand down something far "worse" than what they voted down.

The pilots with the most unreasonable expectations will be the ones who will be bitter.

 

[Kharma Police]

Delta is still in the board room trying to figure out what happened back in sept! ;-)

Delta is a tough competitor and I would expect them to react very aggressively to Southwest's entry into ATL. It will be interesting!

 

[jball2]

For BOTH sides, it is aout knowing when to say yes. I have faith that the folks on the repective nc/mc teams, who are more intelligent than me, will come up with something palatable.