SWA/AAI SLI agreement in principle.

[SWA/FO]

Maybe in public or within earshot of SW, but not in private. I've talked to some of them and it's almost like two white guys telling a joke about black guys, they always look around first and then vent.

What? WRONG.

 

[Lear70]

As long as the AT F/O's keep their longevity for pay (which they almost certainly will), they "upgrade" to within a few $/hr of AT Capt pay the second they ink this deal. Yes, on paper they lose bidding power, but given that SWA schedules and work rules are quite a bit better than AT's, the QOL is at least as good. Bottom line, the AT F/O's have met the career expectations they had when they hired on at AT.

Serious question, along the lines of what you just posted.

I bid #7 in MCO. I hold weekends off and all holidays. I get my choice of long overnights at an international destination or west coast city, get my choice of vacation, and my choice of sim times, etc.

With the seniority loss after this, I lose my base, I'll be bidding in the BOTTOM 14% of the COMBINED seniority list and in the bottom 23% of ATL's 737 F/O list, and I'm not sure how your work rules will give me that Quality of Life back (weekends and holidays off consistently every month to spend with my family).

According to the retirement schedule at SWA and AAI combined I get my current system seniority back when my son turns 18... that's 13 years from now. I'll be 53. I'll upgrade 2-3 years after that, and will get off reserve 3-4 years after that. In other words, I'll be about 60 when I'm a line-holding CA with 5 years left to climb any higher on the list.

So where, as an F/O in percentage of a list in any given domicile, can I hold weekends and holidays off again to get my current Quality of Life back based on what you were saying about Southwest's work rules? Can I really hold that quality of life at 86% of the way down the list, just 6% above the reserve level? Then how senior do you have to be as a CA to hold that same QoL? Do I even have time left in my career for that to happen just upgrading when I'm 55-56?

Thanks for the answers, this kind of stuff is what every senior AAI F/O wants and needs to know.

 

[cappydd]

Rich, i am in about the same percentage as you are. I too would be curious as to what bases (SWA) could we hold and maybe hold a line and have somewhat of a decent QOL?
However, if being put on the bottom what would be our new "date of hire" and is that being adjusted somehow??
I may want to get out of the ATL if i could have a better line elsewhere!!

Still too many unknowns??

 

[Max Powers]

Rich, i am in about the same percentage as you are. I too would be curious as to what bases (SWA) could we hold and maybe hold a line and have somewhat of a decent QOL?
However, if being put on the bottom what would be our new "date of hire" and is that being adjusted somehow??
I may want to get out of the ATL if i could have a better line elsewhere!!

Still too many unknowns??

You know AAI schedules are pretty darn good. The vast majority are 19, 18, 17 days off. All my friends at SWA usually see the same days off. I guess the credit is probably higher but still it isn't that much better, is it?

Having a wife who out earns me makes this new pay raise an actual 10-15% increase. Not worth the staple for me. Sorry.

 

[easydoesit]

Hey Lear are you factoring in any growth?

 

[Lear70]

Hey Lear are you factoring in any growth?

No, that's zero growth projections.

They have the models for growth at different percentages, but I haven't seen them yet. In doing rough averages on my computer of 4% growth (what I consider conservative looking back on 12 years of SWA history) for 4 years out of every 10, it drops the times to get back to current relative seniority and/or upgrade by a good 30-35%.

 

[T45Flyer]

Serious question, along the lines of what you just posted.

I bid #7 in MCO. I hold weekends off and all holidays. I get my choice of long overnights at an international destination or west coast city, get my choice of vacation, and my choice of sim times, etc.

With the seniority loss after this, I lose my base, I'll be bidding in the BOTTOM 14% of the COMBINED seniority list and in the bottom 23% of ATL's 737 F/O list, and I'm not sure how your work rules will give me that Quality of Life back (weekends and holidays off consistently every month to spend with my family).

According to the retirement schedule at SWA and AAI combined I get my current system seniority back when my son turns 18... that's 13 years from now. I'll be 53. I'll upgrade 2-3 years after that, and will get off reserve 3-4 years after that. In other words, I'll be about 60 when I'm a line-holding CA with 5 years left to climb any higher on the list.

So where, as an F/O in percentage of a list in any given domicile, can I hold weekends and holidays off again to get my current Quality of Life back based on what you were saying about Southwest's work rules? Can I really hold that quality of life at 86% of the way down the list, just 6% above the reserve level? Then how senior do you have to be as a CA to hold that same QoL? Do I even have time left in my career for that to happen just upgrading when I'm 55-56?

Thanks for the answers, this kind of stuff is what every senior AAI F/O wants and needs to know.

Lear,
Good meeting you the other day. I totally understand your argument. My question to you is didn't you apply here several times before? Were you not ready to start at 1st year pay on reserve in Oakland?

I think you are in a much better position that you ever imagined. Maybe you could focus on the positive. Let's hope this deal is acceptable to all.

Take care.
-T45

 

[Flycatcher99]

No, that's zero growth projections.

They have the models for growth at different percentages, but I haven't seen them yet. In doing rough averages on my computer of 4% growth (what I consider conservative looking back on 12 years of SWA history) for 4 years out of every 10, it drops the times to get back to current relative seniority and/or upgrade by a good 30-35%.

Zero growth, huh? That's funny. I thought we were going to grow like mad after the acquisition. At least, that's what all the AAI folk kept saying was the big gain SWA folk would be getting from this deal.

 

[jonjuan]

Hey Lear are you factoring in any growth?

Positive or negative?

 

[ASADFW7]

Well life at SWA is better but it is a more senior airline. Getting to a premium base and schedule takes a lot of decision making and patience. Many points about what SWA pilots could lose so easily I think some AAI pilots are just figuring out. The SWA pilots negotiated the seniority system at SWA one bid at a time. The slowing then stopping of growth for various reasons including the planning and execution of buying a smaller airline in AAI has already impacted the SWA pilot group. SWA has many bases that fluctuate in size and created displacements and forced commutes for first officers and captains. it isn't as simple as move to a domicile, moving with kids is not easy. Housing markets, etc...

Bidding into the SWA system for AAI guys who have zero longevity in the SWA system will be a negotiated method. But make no mistake, SWA pilots are still fluctuating through the system to get closer to home, move off reserve etc... No one gives a crap about personal choice in aviation. If a pilot chooses to upgrade across country, shut up about it and suck it up is the attitude. Displacements are different to a small degree. If AAI guys choose to bid into the southwest system over junior SWA pilots, well life gets a little more complicated for all of us. The integration will protect the senior group not to be flooded with new bidding pilots. Just as ATL will have a fence, the SWA system belonged and was navigated by the SWA pilot group.

The SWA group for the most part do not care about what is lost by the AAI group, middle ground is middle ground. Our system is diluted with new pilots, making our decision and choices now at times more competitive. It will be an adjustment for you, and senior is no longer a five year first officer, think ten. Or no longer a ten year captain, think twenty. Life is good, but bigger is different.

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

Serious question, along the lines of what you just posted.

I bid #7 in MCO. I hold weekends off and all holidays. I get my choice of long overnights at an international destination or west coast city, get my choice of vacation, and my choice of sim times, etc.

With the seniority loss after this, I lose my base, I'll be bidding in the BOTTOM 14% of the COMBINED seniority list and in the bottom 23% of ATL's 737 F/O list, and I'm not sure how your work rules will give me that Quality of Life back (weekends and holidays off consistently every month to spend with my family).

According to the retirement schedule at SWA and AAI combined I get my current system seniority back when my son turns 18... that's 13 years from now. I'll be 53. I'll upgrade 2-3 years after that, and will get off reserve 3-4 years after that. In other words, I'll be about 60 when I'm a line-holding CA with 5 years left to climb any higher on the list.

So where, as an F/O in percentage of a list in any given domicile, can I hold weekends and holidays off again to get my current Quality of Life back based on what you were saying about Southwest's work rules? Can I really hold that quality of life at 86% of the way down the list, just 6% above the reserve level? Then how senior do you have to be as a CA to hold that same QoL? Do I even have time left in my career for that to happen just upgrading when I'm 55-56?

Thanks for the answers, this kind of stuff is what every senior AAI F/O wants and needs to know.

Lear,
I don't think you will loose your base. Bottom guy in MCO is currently a 2011 hire who will be junior to the last guy on the combined list. Top 60 percent can get weekends off. Top 70 percent can hold lines that have some weekends off. If you bid reserve you can get it much earlier. Even in the bottom 10 percent in MDW I have been getting either full or partial weekends off on reserve. Hope that helps.

BTW are you sure you figured you F/O seniority in ATL right after 5 years? I don't know your system but what you laid out here doesn't make sense to me.

 

[waveflyer]

Lear, I think it's been said- there are a lot of positives, but also some negatives. AT has been bought, and it's unrealistic to think that no one's life will change with this. I know I'll be called arrogant for saying it, but I don't intend that- the simple truth is that when you decide to go with a smaller growing carrier, there are risks and rewards. The reward is rapid advancement. The risk is acquisition affecting that rapid advancement. There is probably a lot of growth, pent up from our stagnation, but also might be some continued
stagnation.
In your scenario- a LOT of our careers would seem bleak- but I'm more optimistic. I honestly believe this acquisition will be good for all AT pilots- I think the company has plans for at least one more type (787's?) and that this company could quite possibly double in 10 years and be vastly different.
I understand hoping for the best and planning on the worst and that's still good advice for all. And I'll plan- but I'll really be surprised if we aren't all sharing drinks laughing about how we actually got heated over this.

 

[Old School]

Not sure if anyone has considered the daily productivity gains for AAI. I just finished a 4 day paying 32 and my next trip is a 3 day that pays 27. How much does a 3 or 4 day trip pay at AAI?

 

[PTinbound]

Geez, I can't sift through all the comments to find any actual info. Since our unions have told us squat, could someone with any decent intel put up some bullet points as to exactly how the integration will work under this proposal? What are all the conditions? Is there a formula to figure out seniority? Not trying to stir the pot, just trying to figure out my future...

 

[redflyer65]

Lear,

The other intangible over your upcoming SW career will be scheduling flexiblity. Even if you are not in your domicle of choice, you can drop and pickup as much as you would like. So by getting the extra money coming your way with this agreement, would it be big deal to drop a three day and be at home more?

The larger gorilla in the room is if this gets voted down by either side. I'm not so sure the arbitration award will look much different anyway, just without some of the perks that Gary has tossed in.

As far as growth is concerned, I do know there will be more hiring within the next year. Hawaii will start in almost a year as well. I've heard up to 25 a/c dedicated for those trips and also that Gary is interested in adding Alaska. There is no way that we won't get a new fleet type down the road as Waveflyer said. This is like getting hired at one of the legacies before they did long range international....it's on the horizon.

 

[freightdogfred]

In your scenario- a LOT of our careers would seem bleak- but I'm more optimistic. I honestly believe this acquisition will be good for all AT pilots- I think the company has plans for at least one more type (787's?) and that this company could quite possibly double in 10 years and be vastly different.
I

The proposed seniority dilution has ensured no AAI pilot will ever see that airplane, or any other new type.

 

[zippy32]

The proposed seniority dilution has ensured no AAI pilot will ever see that airplane, or any other new type.

I don't know. There are a ton of senior cowboys in DAL & HOU that will not want to learn a new plane and have no desire to learn how to fly overseas. They love sticking with the Texas Two Step on a -300. Do they make you take off your black Ropers when you go through security in Europe? That would be a huge "no-go" for our guys.

 

[Music]

I don't know. There are a ton of senior cowboys in DAL & HOU that will not want to learn a new plane and have no desire to learn how to fly overseas. They love sticking with the Texas Two Step on a -300. Do they make you take off your black Ropers when you go through security in Europe? That would be a huge "no-go" for our guys.

Agreed. That is the flaw in the argument (the assumption that EVERYONE will move to the new airplane). In my experience at multiple airlines, that is never the case. When the 737 came to AT, I bid for the upgrade (along with the 717) without giving it much thought because of my seniority at the time. So many guys bypassed it that I was awarded the upgrade in only the second vacancy bid (wasn't expecting that)! Bottom-line, while you have to make your assumptions on knowns, such as retirements and conservative growth estimates, reality is usually MUCH different (good or bad).

 

[yoyoma]

Serious question, along the lines of what you just posted.

I bid #7 in MCO. I hold weekends off and all holidays. I get my choice of long overnights at an international destination or west coast city, get my choice of vacation, and my choice of sim times, etc.

With the seniority loss after this, I lose my base, I'll be bidding in the BOTTOM 14% of the COMBINED seniority list and in the bottom 23% of ATL's 737 F/O list, and I'm not sure how your work rules will give me that Quality of Life back (weekends and holidays off consistently every month to spend with my family).

According to the retirement schedule at SWA and AAI combined I get my current system seniority back when my son turns 18... that's 13 years from now. I'll be 53. I'll upgrade 2-3 years after that, and will get off reserve 3-4 years after that. In other words, I'll be about 60 when I'm a line-holding CA with 5 years left to climb any higher on the list.

So where, as an F/O in percentage of a list in any given domicile, can I hold weekends and holidays off again to get my current Quality of Life back based on what you were saying about Southwest's work rules? Can I really hold that quality of life at 86% of the way down the list, just 6% above the reserve level? Then how senior do you have to be as a CA to hold that same QoL? Do I even have time left in my career for that to happen just upgrading when I'm 55-56?

Thanks for the answers, this kind of stuff is what every senior AAI F/O wants and needs to know.

Do you guys really not get the fact that WE BOUGHT YOU? you cant have it all! sorry you might lose your vacation time and bidding power, but someone has to lose a little in this deal. how is this so hard to grasp? you guys really need to take a look at reality. 10% raise isnt enough? 45% is good but you want to keep your seniority and bidding power too? you guys were bought... think that first.

 

[OldManPilot]

Not sure if anyone has considered the daily productivity gains for AAI. I just finished a 4 day paying 32 and my next trip is a 3 day that pays 27. How much does a 3 or 4 day trip pay at AAI?

I do primarily 4-day trips. I would say they average about 21hrs. It's a waste. Cannot wait to fly more efficient trips.

 

[waveflyer]

The proposed seniority dilution has ensured no AAI pilot will ever see that airplane, or any other new type.

You don't know that. And the dynamics of this airline are VERY different. As I said before, most of us at swa have prioritized many things over the traditional legacy career. First, this group is very unified in having one blended rate that we all receive (once integrated) no matter what type you fly. Ala UPS/AWA. We want pilots to fly the airplane they WANT to fly and not bouncing around in training events chasing money, while costing the company $. The old school Texan flying the -300 will be paid the same TFP as the BWI 70,000# new 787 captain. There's a lot of pride in that 1 time zone flying.

Its an adjustment here. So are the FO payrates. We used to have forced upgrades and bad enough FO pay that most everyone upgraded as soon as possible. That's not the case anymore and more are choosing to stay senior, still making north of $170k, and leaving the tiller alone for a few extra years. This is the beauty of making that extra rate. Some AT guys have tried to minimize the $$- but it truly changes the dynamics. At AT, bc we all compete for goods in the marketplace, where most every cop makes AT FO $$ and a lot of teachers- much less all the engineers and business types, lawyers, and doctors- the "UPGRADE" is very important. When you're at a W2 above what most professionals earn- the upgrade is nice, it is NOT something you must do to be responsible for your family.

And I can't overstate the growth I'm hearing about on the horizon. Rumor is we didn't need to stay as stagnant as we've been. There's been a backlog of plans unimplemented that will go forward as a way to grease this integration through. Stock options are one thing- when you see long time FOs upgrade and all pilots working in a dynamic bid and getting to their prefered base and buying new hires drinks on overnights and at the Wyndham (a solid pre recurrent pastime--> things get a lot more positive. It's been said that's the master plan. -800's, etops, Alaska, hawaii, farther into the Americas, Europe, 787's or equivalent---> it keeps going...

 

[Lear70]

Good comments by all, I appreciate everyone's input (Yes, even T45 and yoyoma's)...

Like I said in that post, I truly wasn't trying to be negative, I just wanted to hear what the realities were of being in that bidding percentage. Being prepared for something makes it easier to adjust, or at least that's how I've found it to be. Thanks to those who answered.

Looking forward to seeing what the MC and NC come back with once the MEC sends it out to us. Until then, ya'll fly safe, and I look forward to meeting more of you out there.

 

[canyonblue]

The larger gorilla in the room is if this gets voted down by either side. I'm not so sure the arbitration award will look much different anyway, just without some of the perks that Gary has tossed in.

And that is the best observation in this thread. I wonder how an Arbitrator would rule, when they look at an AIP that was reached by both Unions and delivered by the company. Whatever this looks like, it may well be the best offer out there. The worst thing would be waiting months, and then only realizing the same SLI we all just agreed to.

 

[yoyoma]

Good comments by all, I appreciate everyone's input (Yes, even T45 and yoyoma's)...

Like I said in that post, I truly wasn't trying to be negative, I just wanted to hear what the realities were of being in that bidding percentage. Being prepared for something makes it easier to adjust, or at least that's how I've found it to be. Thanks to those who answered.

Looking forward to seeing what the MC and NC come back with once the MEC sends it out to us. Until then, ya'll fly safe, and I look forward to meeting more of you out there.

heres one reality for you... how many days off a month do you get now? 12-16? i get 17-19. 3 x 12 = 36 thats an extra month off a year! forget your vacation, you just earned an extra 4 weeks.

 

[maru657]

Do you guys really not get the fact that WE BOUGHT YOU? you cant have it all! sorry you might lose your vacation time and bidding power, but someone has to lose a little in this deal. how is this so hard to grasp? you guys really need to take a look at reality. 10% raise isnt enough? 45% is good but you want to keep your seniority and bidding power too? you guys were bought... think that first.

This argument may be the problem with airline merger. "WE" didn't buy anyone. The holding Corp you work for bought another asset.

 

[yoyoma]

This argument may be the problem with airline merger. "WE" didn't buy anyone. The holding Corp you work for bought another asset.

you obviously dont work for swa...because its "we" airline. WE built this airline together, and WE purchased aai with OUR hard work.

 

[767/757]

I do primarily 4-day trips. I would say they average about 21hrs. It's a waste. Cannot wait to fly more efficient trips.

No skin in the game but are the trips at SWA more efficient or do they pay better credit?

Thank you,

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

No skin in the game but are the trips at SWA more efficient or do they pay better credit?

Thank you,

More credit per day worked.

 

[Tripower455]

No skin in the game but are the trips at SWA more efficient or do they pay better credit?

Thank you,

Most likely both. I realize he is using hours, and we use "trips", but our 4 days average 28-30 trips for pay. I'm not sure how that compares pay wise, but I'll go out on a limb and say that we get paid a bit more for the TAFB.

 

[curtaindriver]

you obviously dont work for swa...because its "we" airline. WE built this airline together, and WE purchased aai with OUR hard work.

Haha!! We have knuckleheads at JetBlue that say the same thing. Let me ask you........were you involved in route planning? In revenue managent? Did you help secure the swaps and collars for your fuel hedging program? I doubt it.
You, like thousands of others flew from point A to point B safely.....that's all........nothing else.....get over yourself.

CD