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SWA/AAI future?

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Crash Pad

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 10, 2005
Posts
1,720
Ok I'm passed the seniority list... I was actually past it with the first offer but you know ALPA, they always know what's best for me. So excited to be done with ALPA.

My question is for you super smart pilots that can see the future: How is this going to play out?

1. Will a 717 ever be in SWA colors? Will they be dumped prior to us coming over to SWA. Example they dump one bring those pilots for training and pick up a 737 to put them in?

2. If the 717 is dumped before it gets SWA paint is there a furlough on AAI side?

3. How long will it take for AAI to become SWA completely? I was looking at 30 months from the first offer... Does that still sound correct?

4. Does SWA have a 737 ground school for non-typed pilots? Will 717 guys need to get a type between here and there.

5. What will 717 pay be? If they do go to your side of the fence... I'm guessing SWAPA will negotiate a rate. I'm also guessing SWAPA pilots will want those Capt. seats etc.

6. Will I ever see a SWA paycheck before 2013?

Please save the list argument for another thread I'm looking for guesses on how this plays out.
 
Crash,
you are asking lots of great questions, and unfortunately no one knows the answers at this time. i can tell you that once you get on board, you will thoroughly enjoy the flying, company, flexibility, and LUV. pardon the kool aid pun.
all the best,
NAV
 
1 - Not likely. If there are enough 737 seats, then yes, brought over.

2 - Possibly.

3 - 30 months sounds right

4 - No non-typed program as of now

5 - 717 pay will stay the same as now.

6 - No. I'd say 2013 is a good guess.
 
I agree with FlybyNav that you'll like it when you're here. The only one of your questions I can answer is about the type rating. You will get a type when you go to upgrade. It's part of your first checkride as a CA. That's the way about every other airline does it. The only reason SWA requires it as a condition to join the club as a newhire, is to ensure the person is actually fully qualified from the get-go, and so the company doesn't find out the hard way when they try to upgrade that pilot. When Morris guys came aboard, their F/Os didn't have types; they got them when they upgraded-- at company expense.

Hope this helps.

Bubba
 
SWA Bubba said:
The only reason SWA requires it as a condition to join the club as a newhire, is to ensure the person is actually fully qualified from the get-go, and so the company doesn't find out the hard way when they try to upgrade that pilot.
Click to expand...
LMFAO.....Take a guess as to the % of people who "fail" their type at higher power.
 
Crash Pad said:
3. How long will it take for AAI to become SWA completely? I was looking at 30 months from the first offer... Does that still sound correct?
Click to expand...

737 conversions are rumored* to occur between 2Q12-3Q13
717 conversions are rumored* to occur between 3Q12-4Q13
 
Not sure about that one, but most people pass the second time around....no matter where you are, unless you are really that bad.
 
Lower insurance rates if both pilots in the cockpit are typed.
There can be a small % who aren't typed and SWA still keep the lower rates.

It's all about lowered costs, not "who wants it bad enough" or "who's good enough" or "who's qualified" and not about "pay for training" since the initial training is nearly the same as a type course.
 
SWA Bubba said:
I agree with FlybyNav that you'll like it when you're here. The only one of your questions I can answer is about the type rating. You will get a type when you go to upgrade. It's part of your first checkride as a CA. That's the way about every other airline does it. The only reason SWA requires it as a condition to join the club as a newhire, is to ensure the person is actually fully qualified from the get-go, and so the company doesn't find out the hard way when they try to upgrade that pilot. When Morris guys came aboard, their F/Os didn't have types; they got them when they upgraded-- at company expense.

Hope this helps.

Bubba
Click to expand...


Actually, the vast majority of Morris Pilots were typed. It was a requirement there as well. However, there was a handfull of pilots hired without the type, because of actual airplane type experience. Probably less than twenty.
 
SWA Bubba said:
I agree with FlybyNav that you'll like it when you're here. The only one of your questions I can answer is about the type rating. You will get a type when you go to upgrade. It's part of your first checkride as a CA. That's the way about every other airline does it. The only reason SWA requires it as a condition to join the club as a newhire, is to ensure the person is actually fully qualified from the get-go, and so the company doesn't find out the hard way when they try to upgrade that pilot. When Morris guys came aboard, their F/Os didn't have types; they got them when they upgraded-- at company expense.

Hope this helps.

Bubba
Click to expand...

I think like someone else said it has everything to do with insurance. The rest is a perk for the People Dept. but insurance is why. Just keeping costs low.
 
Crash Pad said:
Ok I'm passed the seniority list... I was actually past it with the first offer but you know ALPA, they always know what's best for me. So excited to be done with ALPA.

My question is for you super smart pilots that can see the future: How is this going to play out?

1. Will a 717 ever be in SWA colors? Will they be dumped prior to us coming over to SWA. Example they dump one bring those pilots for training and pick up a 737 to put them in?

2. If the 717 is dumped before it gets SWA paint is there a furlough on AAI side?

3. How long will it take for AAI to become SWA completely? I was looking at 30 months from the first offer... Does that still sound correct?

4. Does SWA have a 737 ground school for non-typed pilots? Will 717 guys need to get a type between here and there.

5. What will 717 pay be? If they do go to your side of the fence... I'm guessing SWAPA will negotiate a rate. I'm also guessing SWAPA pilots will want those Capt. seats etc.

6. Will I ever see a SWA paycheck before 2013?

Please save the list argument for another thread I'm looking for guesses on how this plays out.
Click to expand...

I bet if ATN accepts an agreement that SWA won't furlough. They have not furloghed in 40 years why start now? If you guys join the team I don't see SWA furloghing UNLESS the economy forces them to...but they have found a way for 40 years. However, this can be different if no agreement is made. Not saying to scare anyone, just know how SWA operates. They are awesome to work for, as long as you are pulling the rope in the same direction as them. The other thing I know about SWA is they have a plan A,B,C,D etc.. This has all been worked out already with most scenarios.
 
I haven't got a clue about what's actually in this new agreement so let me just hypothesize for a moment based on all the rumors from SL9 and this one.

1. For AT: ATL is rightsized. 1/2 the pilots, 1/2 the current fleet. 1/2 the B737's are absorbed thoughout the SWA system; these become the rumored upgrades/downgrades. B717's that are moved around have new bases pop up. No idea where they would go; guess HOU and MCO, maybe MDW and BWI. Assuming 60% commuters, I'd bet many of these are better commutes. Perhaps there is some give and take with SWA to get bases that make sense to limit displacements or have more positions nearer where people actually live, and then a "test" bid to see how the downgrades and QOL works out based on domiciles before the actual occurs leading to some horse trading oportunities. Regardless, I'd expect good QOL for B717 pilots due to new bases and skeds designed for the aircraft. Pay would probably be the same it is now until SWAPA gets a rate for it to account for TFP transition. I think the company would want the current hourly rate/1.1607 for conversion since that is what the LOA called for in reverse order. Section 6, if not delayed by the SWAPA vote, will probably be a battle with the company to raise it up to B737, or as close as possible. If this thing passes, B717's stay until lease expiration. If it doesn't pass, only Herb and GK know. B737 guys that downgrade are probably handled internally (back to B717) or sent first to the SWA side; no idea.

2. For SWA: A few upgrades but basically no changes. These would be through current vacancy bidding increases to CAPT seats in present domiciles. An attempt at no harm but it will be so convoluted heads will pop. Best to just order another beer in the bar and not think about it. I still think the company will want to limit training costs so B717 will be a distinct fleet. We'll have to accept a new rate and fight that battle in next Section 6. This will leave an opening, however, if the company decides on a 3rd A/C type (bigger). If we accept a less rate for one, quid pro quo would dictate a higher rate for a WB. AT has this in their CBA. I say the ratio in the AT CBA applied to the current SWA B737 rates. Overall, very little movement until dust settles.

3. Integration. Probably still 30 months if it happens. AT guys on the bottom of the B737 will probably be affected most. But with a "test" bid as mentioned above, those that want to stay in ATL, probably will be able to. Much movement for B717. Even with no seat locks, fences, etc., SWA bidding system only allows guys to bid into new domiciles if there is a vacancy. I don't see this happening in ATL for many, many years.

OK, since I've totally convoluted everything I started out with, I'll leave it at that. My guess is as good as yours. It won't be perfect and will be hated by both sides, but if passed, will probably by moot in a few years after the economy, hopefully-eventually, recovers.
 
The economy won't recover. There will be zero growth for a very long time. 1700 really pissed off AAI pilots that were expecting DOH+ several years will come on board and will do their best to make this a miserable a place to work. The AAI pilots assumed they would go to a venue that is as friendly to them as a custody hearing is to a woman in most states. If that doesn't happen they will be pissed and will take it out on EVERYONE and EVERYTHING. Should be lots of fun.


I was hopeful that this would be a positive thing. I was hopeful we could find a solution that everyone could live with. Now I'm convinced it'll just suck.
 
SWA717,

I agree with you. There will be bumps in the road no doubt. Past naysayers will be present naysayers.

The future of the culture will depend on both groups working together and from the folks I know at both airlines, the vast majority come to work with good attitudes and treat our customers/other work groups very well. I won't change overnight and be a grinch and I suspect my fellow co-workers and new co-workers won't either.

A simple mirror will be sufficient to see where the problem lies if there are attitude problems.

The dust will not settle for awhile but simply brushing it off and doing what both airlines have done before will be the order of the day.

first and second round is on me SWA717. cheers
 
GhettoBeechjet said:
The economy won't recover. There will be zero growth for a very long time. 1700 really pissed off AAI pilots that were expecting DOH+ several years will come on board and will do their best to make this a miserable a place to work. The AAI pilots assumed they would go to a venue that is as friendly to them as a custody hearing is to a woman in most states. If that doesn't happen they will be pissed and will take it out on EVERYONE and EVERYTHING. Should be lots of fun.


I was hopeful that this would be a positive thing. I was hopeful we could find a solution that everyone could live with. Now I'm convinced it'll just suck.
Click to expand...

You just added over 130 airframes....yet you call that zero growth? The SLI is very far from being equitable, but it is what it is. The really humourous thing is SWAPA using the 717 payrates as a bargaining chip. A sizable amount of the available upgrades will be on that airplane, albeit at the lower rate. Ye reap what ye sow.
 
Freight,

Do some research. We've been taking NEW 737 deliveries almost every month. Wanna show me where the growth is? There isn't any.

For more than 3 years in a row, Southwest has not grown. Just replacing 300's with new 700's. I don't see that trend changing anytime soon. I predict another year (at least) of the same..

RF
 
If the Euro falls apart....which it will....look out. We all may be looking at stagnation as the good ol days.
 
chase said:
A simple mirror will be sufficient to see where the problem lies if there are attitude problems.

The dust will not settle for awhile but simply brushing it off and doing what both airlines have done before will be the order of the day.
Click to expand...

I agree. I find that if I just ignore problems they always either go away or just fix themselves.

Gup
 
Best advice I've heard is don't bid Chicago trips thinking it's party land, one guy told me the last trip out of there every FA was gay, grannie, or grande
 
Ya'all the other day in Midway we were following a AAI B737 31C circle 22L, they flew a pattern that took them over downtown and then when they landed on 22L they turned right onto the taxiway. The tower controller said your other left. There they sat for at least 15 minutes waiting to cross back towards the terminal. If you have flown into Midway turning right off 22L does not allow you to taxi towards the gate without crossing the active runway once again.

The point is the future of SWA will be a lot of new things for all involved. There will be a few little mistakes like this one where we will roll our eyes and say that crew is inexperienced. Both sides will screw up and you know what, it happened before this deal and it will happen after. If the worse thing that happens is someone turns the wrong way off the runway we will all be okay.
 
ASADFW7 said:
Ya'all the other day in Midway we were following a AAI B737 31C circle 22L, they flew a pattern that took them over downtown and then when they landed on 22L they turned right onto the taxiway. The tower controller said your other left. There they sat for at least 15 minutes waiting to cross back towards the terminal. If you have flown into Midway turning right off 22L does not allow you to taxi towards the gate without crossing the active runway once again.

The point is the future of SWA will be a lot of new things for all involved. There will be a few little mistakes like this one where we will roll our eyes and say that crew is inexperienced. Both sides will screw up and you know what, it happened before this deal and it will happen after. If the worse thing that happens is someone turns the wrong way off the runway we will all be okay.
Click to expand...

Thanks Chuck Yeager! The Airtran guys will say the same thing about you as you overfly the White House on your first trip "down the river" at DCA. Roll your eyes.....



Bye Bye----General Lee
 
Why is Yeager the ICAO standard for the aviation metaphor? I would think Sean Tucker or Bob Hoover would be better.
 
General Lee said:
Thanks Chuck Yeager! The Airtran guys will say the same thing about you as you overfly the White House on your first trip "down the river" at DCA. Roll your eyes.....



Bye Bye----General Lee
Click to expand...

Doesn't matter..... The White House has been empty going on 3 years now.

Yeah the river visual is such a complex approach.....

Besides, us corn dogs have been hand flying our 200's 6 legs a day, 5 days a week for twenty years now. With some coaching from the Delta Professionals, we might get the hang of it.
 
freightdogfred said:
You just added over 130 airframes....yet you call that zero growth? The SLI is very far from being equitable, but it is what it is. The really humourous thing is SWAPA using the 717 payrates as a bargaining chip. A sizable amount of the available upgrades will be on that airplane, albeit at the lower rate. Ye reap what ye sow.
Click to expand...


It is zero growth because they come with 1700 pissed off pilots which is about 300 more than are required. As stated all new deliveries will just replace other airframes. Zero growth and overstaffed. I foresee min pay lines for a LONG time to come. Should just add to the fun.
 
I'll make this easy. My words are the blue ones. :beer:

Crash Pad said:
My question is for you super smart pilots that can see the future That's me!: How is this going to play out?

1. Will a 717 ever be in SWA colors? No.
Will they be dumped prior to us coming over to SWA. Probably.
Example they dump one bring those pilots for training and pick up a 737 to put them in? Not a 1 for 1 transition. Depends on who bids what.
2. If the 717 is dumped before it gets SWA paint is there a furlough on AAI side? Maybe a short term one. Unless those 717 pilots leave with those planes.

3. How long will it take for AAI to become SWA completely? I was looking at 30 months from the first offer... Does that still sound correct? 60-72 months is becoming more realistic every day. If ever.

4. Does SWA have a 737 ground school for non-typed pilots? No. But I guess there will be a "long course" now.
Will 717 guys need to get a type between here and there. No.

5. What will 717 pay be? If they do go to your side of the fence... I'm guessing SWAPA will negotiate a rate. Current ALPA book rate. It will be an ALPA plane for a long time...

I'm also guessing SWAPA pilots will want those Capt. seats etc. Doubt SWA pilots will want them. They can just upgrade in the 737's that are replacing the 717's as they are sold off/parked.

6. Will I ever see a SWA paycheck before 2013? Are you on the 737? If not, then no.
Click to expand...

Anything else I can help you with?
 

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