SWA/AAI future?

[Mach 80]

Lower insurance rates if both pilots in the cockpit are typed.
There can be a small % who aren't typed and SWA still keep the lower rates.

It's all about lowered costs, not "who wants it bad enough" or "who's good enough" or "who's qualified" and not about "pay for training" since the initial training is nearly the same as a type course.

 

[djf]

I agree with FlybyNav that you'll like it when you're here. The only one of your questions I can answer is about the type rating. You will get a type when you go to upgrade. It's part of your first checkride as a CA. That's the way about every other airline does it. The only reason SWA requires it as a condition to join the club as a newhire, is to ensure the person is actually fully qualified from the get-go, and so the company doesn't find out the hard way when they try to upgrade that pilot. When Morris guys came aboard, their F/Os didn't have types; they got them when they upgraded-- at company expense.

Hope this helps.

Bubba

Actually, the vast majority of Morris Pilots were typed. It was a requirement there as well. However, there was a handfull of pilots hired without the type, because of actual airplane type experience. Probably less than twenty.

 

[puddlejumper101]

I agree with FlybyNav that you'll like it when you're here. The only one of your questions I can answer is about the type rating. You will get a type when you go to upgrade. It's part of your first checkride as a CA. That's the way about every other airline does it. The only reason SWA requires it as a condition to join the club as a newhire, is to ensure the person is actually fully qualified from the get-go, and so the company doesn't find out the hard way when they try to upgrade that pilot. When Morris guys came aboard, their F/Os didn't have types; they got them when they upgraded-- at company expense.

Hope this helps.

Bubba

I think like someone else said it has everything to do with insurance. The rest is a perk for the People Dept. but insurance is why. Just keeping costs low.

 

[puddlejumper101]

Ok I'm passed the seniority list... I was actually past it with the first offer but you know ALPA, they always know what's best for me. So excited to be done with ALPA.

My question is for you super smart pilots that can see the future: How is this going to play out?

1. Will a 717 ever be in SWA colors? Will they be dumped prior to us coming over to SWA. Example they dump one bring those pilots for training and pick up a 737 to put them in?

2. If the 717 is dumped before it gets SWA paint is there a furlough on AAI side?

3. How long will it take for AAI to become SWA completely? I was looking at 30 months from the first offer... Does that still sound correct?

4. Does SWA have a 737 ground school for non-typed pilots? Will 717 guys need to get a type between here and there.

5. What will 717 pay be? If they do go to your side of the fence... I'm guessing SWAPA will negotiate a rate. I'm also guessing SWAPA pilots will want those Capt. seats etc.

6. Will I ever see a SWA paycheck before 2013?

Please save the list argument for another thread I'm looking for guesses on how this plays out.

I bet if ATN accepts an agreement that SWA won't furlough. They have not furloghed in 40 years why start now? If you guys join the team I don't see SWA furloghing UNLESS the economy forces them to...but they have found a way for 40 years. However, this can be different if no agreement is made. Not saying to scare anyone, just know how SWA operates. They are awesome to work for, as long as you are pulling the rope in the same direction as them. The other thing I know about SWA is they have a plan A,B,C,D etc.. This has all been worked out already with most scenarios.

 

[chris69]

I haven't got a clue about what's actually in this new agreement so let me just hypothesize for a moment based on all the rumors from SL9 and this one.

1. For AT: ATL is rightsized. 1/2 the pilots, 1/2 the current fleet. 1/2 the B737's are absorbed thoughout the SWA system; these become the rumored upgrades/downgrades. B717's that are moved around have new bases pop up. No idea where they would go; guess HOU and MCO, maybe MDW and BWI. Assuming 60% commuters, I'd bet many of these are better commutes. Perhaps there is some give and take with SWA to get bases that make sense to limit displacements or have more positions nearer where people actually live, and then a "test" bid to see how the downgrades and QOL works out based on domiciles before the actual occurs leading to some horse trading oportunities. Regardless, I'd expect good QOL for B717 pilots due to new bases and skeds designed for the aircraft. Pay would probably be the same it is now until SWAPA gets a rate for it to account for TFP transition. I think the company would want the current hourly rate/1.1607 for conversion since that is what the LOA called for in reverse order. Section 6, if not delayed by the SWAPA vote, will probably be a battle with the company to raise it up to B737, or as close as possible. If this thing passes, B717's stay until lease expiration. If it doesn't pass, only Herb and GK know. B737 guys that downgrade are probably handled internally (back to B717) or sent first to the SWA side; no idea.

2. For SWA: A few upgrades but basically no changes. These would be through current vacancy bidding increases to CAPT seats in present domiciles. An attempt at no harm but it will be so convoluted heads will pop. Best to just order another beer in the bar and not think about it. I still think the company will want to limit training costs so B717 will be a distinct fleet. We'll have to accept a new rate and fight that battle in next Section 6. This will leave an opening, however, if the company decides on a 3rd A/C type (bigger). If we accept a less rate for one, quid pro quo would dictate a higher rate for a WB. AT has this in their CBA. I say the ratio in the AT CBA applied to the current SWA B737 rates. Overall, very little movement until dust settles.

3. Integration. Probably still 30 months if it happens. AT guys on the bottom of the B737 will probably be affected most. But with a "test" bid as mentioned above, those that want to stay in ATL, probably will be able to. Much movement for B717. Even with no seat locks, fences, etc., SWA bidding system only allows guys to bid into new domiciles if there is a vacancy. I don't see this happening in ATL for many, many years.

OK, since I've totally convoluted everything I started out with, I'll leave it at that. My guess is as good as yours. It won't be perfect and will be hated by both sides, but if passed, will probably by moot in a few years after the economy, hopefully-eventually, recovers.

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

The economy won't recover. There will be zero growth for a very long time. 1700 really pissed off AAI pilots that were expecting DOH+ several years will come on board and will do their best to make this a miserable a place to work. The AAI pilots assumed they would go to a venue that is as friendly to them as a custody hearing is to a woman in most states. If that doesn't happen they will be pissed and will take it out on EVERYONE and EVERYTHING. Should be lots of fun.


I was hopeful that this would be a positive thing. I was hopeful we could find a solution that everyone could live with. Now I'm convinced it'll just suck.

 

[SWA717]

Ghetto,

Could you be a little more negative? I think everything will be just fine.

 

[chase]

SWA717,

I agree with you. There will be bumps in the road no doubt. Past naysayers will be present naysayers.

The future of the culture will depend on both groups working together and from the folks I know at both airlines, the vast majority come to work with good attitudes and treat our customers/other work groups very well. I won't change overnight and be a grinch and I suspect my fellow co-workers and new co-workers won't either.

A simple mirror will be sufficient to see where the problem lies if there are attitude problems.

The dust will not settle for awhile but simply brushing it off and doing what both airlines have done before will be the order of the day.

first and second round is on me SWA717. cheers

 

[freightdogfred]

The economy won't recover. There will be zero growth for a very long time. 1700 really pissed off AAI pilots that were expecting DOH+ several years will come on board and will do their best to make this a miserable a place to work. The AAI pilots assumed they would go to a venue that is as friendly to them as a custody hearing is to a woman in most states. If that doesn't happen they will be pissed and will take it out on EVERYONE and EVERYTHING. Should be lots of fun.


I was hopeful that this would be a positive thing. I was hopeful we could find a solution that everyone could live with. Now I'm convinced it'll just suck.

You just added over 130 airframes....yet you call that zero growth? The SLI is very far from being equitable, but it is what it is. The really humourous thing is SWAPA using the 717 payrates as a bargaining chip. A sizable amount of the available upgrades will be on that airplane, albeit at the lower rate. Ye reap what ye sow.

 

[redflyer65]

Freight,

Do some research. We've been taking NEW 737 deliveries almost every month. Wanna show me where the growth is? There isn't any.

For more than 3 years in a row, Southwest has not grown. Just replacing 300's with new 700's. I don't see that trend changing anytime soon. I predict another year (at least) of the same..

RF