SunCountry

[RedDogC130]

well since APC is stating the 12 year Capt is topped out at $127 an hour I guess they will have an interesting argument trying to justify a jump to SWA Capt pay. Career expectations, pay, QOL...the fact that the company filed for CH 11 in October should be a good one.

 

[BJK]

A compromise would have likely been reached had FAPA president John Stemmler and his crew bothered to show up. They didnt, and neglected to return phone calls. You call us "cocky"?

Just curious, have you actually asked any of the SWAPA reps involved in FAPA negotiations whether their spin regarding neglecting to return phone calls is true? Try it out face to face and see how they respond. You might be surprised.

 

[redflyer65]

I am not familiar with your FAPA reference. Here is what happened with our DL/NWA negotiations:


Redflyer,

You are looking for any opportunity to screw people, and you can't take it that people would actually have the audacity to think that they don't want to have what you have, or do what you do. Not everyone wants the potential to fly 5 or 6 legs a day, even at your payrate. 20 years of that would send a lot of people to an early grave. Enjoy your next day of flying: DAL-LBB-ABQ-PHX-LAS-RNO-SJC. No thanks.


Bye Bye--General Lee

General, What are you talking about? I said nothing about 5 legs a day and you just pull it out of thin air. When will you give it up and realize that Hose is right, we do our own feed. You don't. Enjoy your RJ's.

RF

 

[ThisistheDream]

The Rumors of SWA buying Sun Country have been there for the past 10-12 years and very strong rumors they have been for that time frame. Back in 2000 it was a done deal from the people I knew in marketing and it never happened. Once they got the 737 on property it was going to happend again for real it was talked about and never happened. I still would be surprised if SWA bought Sun Country, they dont need to. The HHH terminal has many gates avail and if SWA wanted to really increase the MSP presence all they would have to do is ask for more gates and they would get them. Sun Country is a great place to work , and would bet most of the pilots would not want a buyout from SWA if SCA could make it on its own which they have still done in the worst of airline times!!!

 

[RedDogC130]

related Content

• Petters allegedly has $10M gambling losses

• Friday: Sun Country warns of shutdown

• Project: The Tom Petters fraud case

Sun Country Airlines, battling to survive a cash squeeze, filed for bankruptcy protection Monday in a move that separated itself from its majority stockholder, Tom Petters, whose other businesses have been taken over by a court appointee as part of a massive fraud case.
"We're not in bankruptcy because of our business model being broken," Stan Gadek, Sun Country's CEO, said in an interview. "We are in bankruptcy because of the recent events at Petters Group Worldwide."

Airline leaders say they expect to survive a cash crisis but warned of layoffs or a shutdown as early as Dec. 1 to comply with a 60-day notification law.


this is a Oct 6th article

 

[GuppyWN]

Just curious, have you actually asked any of the SWAPA reps involved in FAPA negotiations whether their spin regarding neglecting to return phone calls is true? Try it out face to face and see how they respond. You might be surprised.

Yes, actually, I have asked more than one SWAPA rep who were DIRECTLY involved. FAPA gave SWAPA the cold shoulder on Thursday. That afternoon the judges ruling became law.

Why are we talking about this again?

Gup

 

[StopNTSing]

Back to my post. As far as a fair integration IN MY MIND for a potential SunCountry and SWA merger or takeover, I would say a ratio, but having the senior SunCountry pilots (many have been there over 20 years probably---not because they are periahs, but rather they liked MSP) be blended in close to senior FOs at SWA. Maybe at the 50% point and then downward. Maybe 1 SunCountry Captain and then throw in 20 or 30 SWA FOs. In other words, keep it at SWA's favor, but don't destroy the SunCountry guys for being loyal to their previous company. You guys can come up with the ratio (30 to 1, or 35 to 1---whatever), but it allows some better QOL for some of their senior guys. Throwing them all on the bottom and given reserve for the next few years until you expand more is NOT the way to do it. That is all my opinion, and you guys have to get off the cocky train.


Bye Bye--General Lee

So if Delta decided to buy Sun Country, would you be okay with some SC pilots coming in senior to you, General?

For everyone else, I know I shouldn't feed the troll, but I really am curious about his answer.

 

[Dude]

BJK,

Why would SWAPA have any inclination to fabricate that whole story? What advantage would that give them? Now on the other hand, what would be the advantage of the FAPA dudes doing the same?

Our M & A committee and President made numerous attempts to contact Stemmler and your M & A team without a single returned email or call. Simply put, he bought what Bedford was buying and figured that we weren't bluffing about NOT going to arbitration. When he figured that we weren't going to arbitration, he likely thought Bedford's empty promises were a better deal than the poor staple job from SWAPA. Nice job having FO's at the table, though.

I really wish the best for the F9 guys, but your representation sucks. If I were an F9 dude and I knew how your FAPA guys behaved, I'd be pissed and betrayed.

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

Just curious, have you actually asked any of the SWAPA reps involved in FAPA negotiations whether their spin regarding neglecting to return phone calls is true? Try it out face to face and see how they respond. You might be surprised.

yes i have

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

Why are we talking about this again?

Gup

Its my fault. I took that General guys bait. I apologize profusely.

 

[scrub]

related Content

• Petters allegedly has $10M gambling losses

• Friday: Sun Country warns of shutdown

• Project: The Tom Petters fraud case

Sun Country Airlines, battling to survive a cash squeeze, filed for bankruptcy protection Monday in a move that separated itself from its majority stockholder, Tom Petters, whose other businesses have been taken over by a court appointee as part of a massive fraud case.
"We're not in bankruptcy because of our business model being broken," Stan Gadek, Sun Country's CEO, said in an interview. "We are in bankruptcy because of the recent events at Petters Group Worldwide."

Airline leaders say they expect to survive a cash crisis but warned of layoffs or a shutdown as early as Dec. 1 to comply with a 60-day notification law.


this is a Oct 6th article

10/6/2008,over a year ago

 

[General Lee]

General, What are you talking about? I said nothing about 5 legs a day and you just pull it out of thin air. When will you give it up and realize that Hose is right, we do our own feed. You don't. Enjoy your RJ's.

RF

Do you mean you "fly like a regional?" Sure, you aren't paid like one, but you sure fly like one. One 3 day trip to Europe can give me 22 hours, whereas you have to "earn" it.(maybe 3 legs into ELP out of 14---that would be horrible) Go enjoy that. You guys love to try to force people to believe your way is best, without the help of arbitrators of course, who might disagree with a lot of what you say. You won't do it, because you are scared. Now, go sip some water from the hotel bathroom faucet in MAF and then proceed to see what happens. What you ask? It all DEPENDS.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

General,

We did not say "take it or leave it". We said "comeback tomorrow and lets work a compromise".

They did not show. So in essence, they said "take it or leave it"

Oh come on, I just don't think that is how it went. Your SWAPA guys sound soooooo niiiiiiiice...... riiiight. Maybe they said "hey fine gentlemen, let's all meet for tea in the Orange Room and we will discuss the finer parts of a possible agreement...?" Whatever. You are GULPING the Koolaid.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

And about LBB, MAF, AMA and the less desirable overnites...

The reason we have them is that we do not outsource domestic flying. Its even in our contract now.

The reason DAL does not have them is that about 20 yrs ago a bunch of senior guys took payraises in exchange for giving away flying to "smaller cities" in "commuter planes". Enter the "regional jet" and now DAL, AA, CAL, UAL, USAIR, and now F9 are having much of their flying transferred to smaller jets flown by "C" scale pilots on another seniority list. DAL let the "cat out of the bag". They could have kept the flying for their own pilots, but then they might have had to go to LBB in a commuter plane. The existence of companies like RAH who create alter ego airlines to whipsaw against one another, and buy out "major" airlines only to sell them off piece by piece, transfer the flying to cheap labor, and leave the original employees jobless (Midwest, F9?) can be laid squarely at the feet of these pilots and their short sightedness. That is quite a legacy they have left. And now you, me, and everyone else with more than a few years to go in this industry will pay for it. But, hey, a least they didnt have to go to Lubbock.

You are right on a lot of that, I remember hearing about our 737-200s flying to MAF and LBB well before I got there. That is too bad, but at the time we also didn't go to half the INTL destinations we do now. We have expanded elsewhere (we now fly Worldwide thanks to the NWA merger), but at the same time we have lost marketshare to a lot of LCCs like yourself to places I guess we don't deem that important. It is great you do think MAF and LBB are important (you are pretty much the sole mainline sized plane operator at those places). I just don't want to go there myself. I prefer Europe. Would it be nice to recapture some of the flying we lost? You bet. Will we try to stop that erosion from happening AGAIN? I hope so. We are parking quite a few of those nasty 50 seaters, 100 last year and another 100 in the next 2-3. A good start I say. Also, we are bringing good ole DC9s to ATL to recapture some of the flying we lost to RJs that have been losing a lot against Airtran 717s. At least someone up high has realized a mistake and is willing to put some larger metal out there. But, if we don't go back to LBB or MAF on the mainline, I won't be too sad.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Its my fault. I took that General guys bait. I apologize profusely.

Took the bait? You decided to try to "DE-BATE" me. So far you are doing ok. Not everyone can be a MASTER DEBATER like myself....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

well since APC is stating the 12 year Capt is topped out at $127 an hour I guess they will have an interesting argument trying to justify a jump to SWA Capt pay. Career expectations, pay, QOL...the fact that the company filed for CH 11 in October should be a good one.

You sound pretty sure of yourself. I am sure an arbitrator would agree with you----a straight staple----you betcha. Try it then with a group of 3 neutrals and see what happens.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

So if Delta decided to buy Sun Country, would you be okay with some SC pilots coming in senior to you, General?

For everyone else, I know I shouldn't feed the troll, but I really am curious about his answer.

I could easily hold Captain on some of the planes we fly, so I doubt it would get that far. I have a feeling no arbitrator would allow a straight staple. They would see some reason to speckle them around the lower half of the seniority list. They actually fly planes larger than yours, and they would be contributing to your bottomline(Via an ETOPS certificate---am I right here? You betcha!). You just can't staple them to the bottom, you can't, unless you are really cocky.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[bravodude]

You sound pretty sure of yourself. I am sure an arbitrator would agree with you----a straight staple----you betcha. Try it then with a group of 3 neutrals and see what happens.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Well lets see what about AA and TWA or AA and Reno Air. I guess you think the same of the AA pilots union that you do of SWAPA.

 

[General Lee]

Well lets see what about AA and TWA or AA and Reno Air. I guess you think the same of the AA pilots union that you do of SWAPA.

Was TWA a pure staple? Nope. There are actual TWA (now AA) Captains in STL flying 757s in the left seat that are junior to AA guys in DFW, but are still Captains according to the agreement they had. Would SWAPA do the same? Doubt it. How did the Reno Air pilots do overall? I think most are still flying now. And, of course, thanks to the Bond Agreement you can't really just staple one group to the other----and no arbitrator would do that now. Can you understand why SWA said "NO ARBITRATION" when they tried to negotiate with F9? Everyone else can---they are scared to. Give them some respect and give them something fair, and it will all turn out fine, and they may not hate you when you fly with them. (Redflyer doesn't care anyway...)


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[RedDogC130]

As for the article....yeah I did not notice the 2008...thanks for pointing that out. Maybe they are in a better place $$ wise than I thought....

 

[Whine Lover]

This thread is just classic FI.

"Sun Country is non-union", "they filed for bankruptcy on Monday"...blah, blah,blah. You guys are right on top of things as usual.

Also as usual, the smattering of illiterates chime in, and then there is the all too predictable, incessant, blathering of The General... pontificating on everything and anything as the thread drifts all over the place.

Classic!

Keep up the good work Men. We're all counting on you.


YKMKR

 

[ASADFW7]

General thanks for all your great input into this argument. SWAPA can try to do whatever they want, whether it is practical or not will decided in negotiations or arbitration. There is a correction from yesterday to today on what is ethical and feasible.

Personally if we bought Sun Country I say rope them off give them the same number of planes and sit there stagnant till they want to be integrated on our terms. But I only have one vote. If that is a little harsh, it is just business, and personally none of SWAPA's business is any of yours, we are not ALPA.

 

[General Lee]

General thanks for all your great input into this argument. SWAPA can try to do whatever they want, whether it is practical or not will decided in negotiations or arbitration. There is a correction from yesterday to today on what is ethical and feasible.

Personally if we bought Sun Country I say rope them off give them the same number of planes and sit there stagnant till they want to be integrated on our terms. But I only have one vote. If that is a little harsh, it is just business, and personally none of SWAPA's business is any of yours, we are not ALPA.

Great response, since it shows your true colors. Keep it up, everyone is impressed. This is a rumor board and an information board, and I can give any opinion I want. If it was my intention on "swaying" SWAPA one way or the other, I would have tried dressing up like the cowgirl who won "Miss Bullriding Teen Lubbock" and shouted "SUUUUUUUU-WHEEEEEE". That would have totally gotten SWAPA's attention, thus averting another terrribly disrespectful takeover attempt.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[StopNTSing]

I could easily hold Captain on some of the planes we fly, so I doubt it would get that far. I have a feeling no arbitrator would allow a straight staple. They would see some reason to speckle them around the lower half of the seniority list. They actually fly planes larger than yours, and they would be contributing to your bottomline(Via an ETOPS certificate---am I right here? You betcha!). You just can't staple them to the bottom, you can't, unless you are really cocky.


Bye Bye---General Lee

So in other words, you'd have no problem with merged lists, as long as the SC guys were all merged in junior to you? Yeah, that's what I thought...

 

[Kharma Police]

General thanks for all your great input into this argument. SWAPA can try to do whatever they want, whether it is practical or not will decided in negotiations or arbitration. There is a correction from yesterday to today on what is ethical and feasible.

Personally if we bought Sun Country I say rope them off give them the same number of planes and sit there stagnant till they want to be integrated on our terms. But I only have one vote. If that is a little harsh, it is just business, and personally none of SWAPA's business is any of yours, we are not ALPA.

Looks like the Jim Jones Kool-Aid drinking People's Temple followers are alive and well in Texas. I will say at least you guys are consistent at being a-holes.

 

[StopNTSing]

Looks like the Jim Jones Kool-Aid drinking People's Temple followers are alive and well in Texas. I will say at least you guys are consistent at being a-holes.

For someone with 'Kharma' in their screen name, you sure do talk a lot of smack.

 

[ASADFW7]

Yes it is true I am an a--hole, no apologies for business, this is a job, not a community group.

 

[crj567]

Yes it is true I am an a--hole, no apologies for business, this is a job, not a community group.

Yep-The brotherhood of all pilots strikes again.....

Mgmt. is growing a huge woody as we speak.

 

[Kharma Police]

For someone with 'Kharma' in their screen name, you sure do talk a lot of smack.

You should re-read some posts from your Kool-Aid drinking brethren about other airlines. A consistent level of douchiness is always conveyed. Sorry sport, I call 'em like I see 'em

 

[General Lee]

So in other words, you'd have no problem with merged lists, as long as the SC guys were all merged in junior to you? Yeah, that's what I thought...

You asked me what I thought would happen, and I stated I doubted they would merge them in DOH, and thought it would be lower than 50%. Get your panties out of a wad, you are a Captain and probably wouldn't be affected. It all comes down to showing SOME respect, and sounds like AGAIN some of you lack it.

Bye Bye--General Lee