SunCountry

[mdf]

most of them are seasonal I think. But, some cool places none the less.

 

[Cometman]

I am not familiar with your FAPA reference. Here is what happened with our DL/NWA negotiations:

3 neutral arbitrators came up with the final seniority number at DL. The NWA guys got a pay raise and kept their pensions. Nothing I just stated was made up, those are the facts. We all made our initial pitches to the arbitrators, but we NEVER said anything about a staple. We knew that was ridiculous. SunCountry has larger planes than Southwest does, but obviously fewer of them and not as good of a contract. Regardless, SunCountry should be treated with respect, and not made to bend over to your cocky wishes.

Redflyer,

You are looking for any opportunity to screw people, and you can't take it that people would actually have the audacity to think that they don't want to have what you have, or do what you do. Not everyone wants the potential to fly 5 or 6 legs a day, even at your payrate. 20 years of that would send a lot of people to an early grave. Enjoy your next day of flying: DAL-LBB-ABQ-PHX-LAS-RNO-SJC. No thanks.


Bye Bye--General Lee

All they have is 8 aircraft and only 6 are the 800. Not that much bigger. Is it really an airline? I mean 8 aircraft. They are not worth that much. They are praying that a SWA would be interested in them. They will accept what ever they are offered.

 

[PSL]

General Lee:

You are correct, not everyone wants to fly SWA and I thank my lucky stars of that reality every day.

Having read a few of your posts; you do yourself a disservice by harping on some of our RON locations. It really is childish.

I can't imagine you act like this when you don your work uniform.

Anyway ... back to your post ...

If SWA acquires Sun Country I would like to hear the terms of your fair integration.

 

[General Lee]

All they have is 8 aircraft and only 6 are the 800. Not that much bigger. Is it really an airline? I mean 8 aircraft. They are not worth that much. They are praying that a SWA would be interested in them. They will accept what ever they are offered.

Here we go again......"Is it really an airline???" Come on now! Quit with the putdowns. Sun Country flew planes before SWA was anything special. They used to have DC10s flying to Oslo, Norway from MSP. They are iconic. Now, are they huge and worth a lot of money financially? Probably not. Do they all WANT to be stapled? Probably not. Will they get DOH? Probably not. Quit the attitude.......



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

I am not familiar with your FAPA reference.

Bye Bye--General Lee

I didnt think so. FAPA = Frontier Airlines Pilots Association.

The time frame we were given to work under was inadequate to say the least. FAPAs proposal was relative seniority. ie their #1 guy ('94 hire) right behind our #1 guy ('71 hire). Whats more, they wanted everyone of their guys that may have gotten furloughed to be paid $36,000 yr indefinitely until recalled. They would not budge off this proposal. So I ask... How would this have flown at Delta?

We requested and were allowed to continue negotiations the following day while the auction was underway in order to hammer out a compromise. A compromise would have likely been reached had FAPA president John Stemmler and his crew bothered to show up. They didnt, and neglected to return phone calls. You call us "cocky"?

I ask you again, were you aware of these events?

 

[General Lee]

General Lee:

You are correct, not everyone wants to fly SWA and I thank my lucky stars of that reality every day.

Having read a few of your posts; you do yourself a disservice by harping on some of our RON locations. It really is childish.

I can't imagine you act like this when you don your work uniform.

Anyway ... back to your post ...

If SWA acquires Sun Country I would like to hear the terms of your fair integration.

Thanks Dad for saying I am doing myself a disservice for harping on LBB. Guess what? Some of your layover cities suk, and not everyone wants to stay there. Everything sounds great until you figure out that you have to fly 5 or 6 legs to an eventual LBB or MAF layover. That doesn't sound exciting to me, yet Redflyer seems excited like a little girl about that very opportunity. Sure, DL also has some layovers that aren't FANTASTIC, but not many after 5 or 6 legs of flying. That is the key here, not everyone wants to do what you do. There are some things that SWA has that are great, like great pay and fun stews. But, I have personally been told by a current SWA FO that he is "worked like a dawg." Your trips in nature have to be productive, which generally means lots of legs. Some of your legs are long, but most are not. Calling me childish because I point out some of your nasty secrets is really a disservice to everyone else on this board.

Back to my post. As far as a fair integration IN MY MIND for a potential SunCountry and SWA merger or takeover, I would say a ratio, but having the senior SunCountry pilots (many have been there over 20 years probably---not because they are periahs, but rather they liked MSP) be blended in close to senior FOs at SWA. Maybe at the 50% point and then downward. Maybe 1 SunCountry Captain and then throw in 20 or 30 SWA FOs. In other words, keep it at SWA's favor, but don't destroy the SunCountry guys for being loyal to their previous company. You guys can come up with the ratio (30 to 1, or 35 to 1---whatever), but it allows some better QOL for some of their senior guys. Throwing them all on the bottom and given reserve for the next few years until you expand more is NOT the way to do it. That is all my opinion, and you guys have to get off the cocky train.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

I didnt think so. FAPA = Frontier Airlines Pilots Association.

The time frame we were given to work under was inadequate to say the least. FAPAs proposal was relative seniority. ie their #1 guy ('94 hire) right behind our #1 guy ('71 hire). Whats more, they wanted everyone of their guys that may have gotten furloughed to be paid $36,000 yr indefinitely until recalled. They would not budge off this proposal. So I ask... How would this have flown at Delta?

We requested and were allowed to continue negotiations the following day while the auction was underway in order to hammer out a compromise. A compromise would have likely been reached had FAPA president John Stemmler and his crew bothered to show up. They didnt, and neglected to return phone calls. You call us "cocky"?

I ask you again, were you aware of these events?

Well, now I am. But, everything you say may not be the EXACT way it happened. You always go into a negotiation with a plan, and you have to be flexible. Look at the USAir East guys---they wanted DOH, and nothing else, and they lost. The NWA guys sort of did the same, and it didn't turn out that way. Our guys wanted us to be in a favored position too, but didn't totally make it obvious. And the arbitrators liked that. If you don't budge, you will likely lose. The FAPA guys also wanted arbitrators to look at it, since they are "neutral." SWAPA didn't want that at all, favoring the bully technique. They said "take it or leave it FAPA", and they left it. Will that come back to haunt SWAPA and SWA someday? Maybe, DEN could have been theirs sooner. Was Kelly really trying to negotiate or was he bumping up the price for Republic? Some analysts said Kelly got smacked by the Republic negotiators, calling his bid amateurish.

Stemmler not showing up is a bit rude to say the least, but I would like to know what was actually offered. It sure didn't sound good overall. Do you take the first offer from a used car salesman? Southwest and SWAPA thought FAPA would, and they were WRONG. Not everyone wants to be the bottom of an airline after spending years being loyal to your current deal. And, if SWA was going to furlough some current F9 pilots, I could see FAPA trying to ask for some furlough protection for their guys, or something that could dissuade SWA from doing so. We have a flowdown to Compass that would be VERY expensive for DL to do if they furloughed. They have to think twice before doing it, which is the point. Many airline execs like to pull the trigger and then go to their condos in Vail and have fun, while a lot of us go to the unemployment line. Not good, and FAPA should protect their members. It obviously wasn't worth it to Kelly, and Bedford offered the F9 guys a deal they could live with. Not everyone wants to be a junior FO again flying reserve for years (until you expand even more).


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

General,

We did not say "take it or leave it". We said "comeback tomorrow and lets work a compromise".

They did not show. So in essence, they said "take it or leave it"

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

And about LBB, MAF, AMA and the less desirable overnites...

The reason we have them is that we do not outsource domestic flying. Its even in our contract now.

The reason DAL does not have them is that about 20 yrs ago a bunch of senior guys took payraises in exchange for giving away flying to "smaller cities" in "commuter planes". Enter the "regional jet" and now DAL, AA, CAL, UAL, USAIR, and now F9 are having much of their flying transferred to smaller jets flown by "C" scale pilots on another seniority list. DAL let the "cat out of the bag". They could have kept the flying for their own pilots, but then they might have had to go to LBB in a commuter plane. The existence of companies like RAH who create alter ego airlines to whipsaw against one another, and buy out "major" airlines only to sell them off piece by piece, transfer the flying to cheap labor, and leave the original employees jobless (Midwest, F9?) can be laid squarely at the feet of these pilots and their short sightedness. That is quite a legacy they have left. And now you, me, and everyone else with more than a few years to go in this industry will pay for it. But, hey, a least they didnt have to go to Lubbock.

 

[Mea25000]

Why? They had all that Sun Country could offer with ATA... I would look for somthing bigger like AAI or nothing at all.

 

[RedDogC130]

well since APC is stating the 12 year Capt is topped out at $127 an hour I guess they will have an interesting argument trying to justify a jump to SWA Capt pay. Career expectations, pay, QOL...the fact that the company filed for CH 11 in October should be a good one.

 

[BJK]

A compromise would have likely been reached had FAPA president John Stemmler and his crew bothered to show up. They didnt, and neglected to return phone calls. You call us "cocky"?

Just curious, have you actually asked any of the SWAPA reps involved in FAPA negotiations whether their spin regarding neglecting to return phone calls is true? Try it out face to face and see how they respond. You might be surprised.

 

[redflyer65]

I am not familiar with your FAPA reference. Here is what happened with our DL/NWA negotiations:


Redflyer,

You are looking for any opportunity to screw people, and you can't take it that people would actually have the audacity to think that they don't want to have what you have, or do what you do. Not everyone wants the potential to fly 5 or 6 legs a day, even at your payrate. 20 years of that would send a lot of people to an early grave. Enjoy your next day of flying: DAL-LBB-ABQ-PHX-LAS-RNO-SJC. No thanks.


Bye Bye--General Lee

General, What are you talking about? I said nothing about 5 legs a day and you just pull it out of thin air. When will you give it up and realize that Hose is right, we do our own feed. You don't. Enjoy your RJ's.

RF

 

[ThisistheDream]

The Rumors of SWA buying Sun Country have been there for the past 10-12 years and very strong rumors they have been for that time frame. Back in 2000 it was a done deal from the people I knew in marketing and it never happened. Once they got the 737 on property it was going to happend again for real it was talked about and never happened. I still would be surprised if SWA bought Sun Country, they dont need to. The HHH terminal has many gates avail and if SWA wanted to really increase the MSP presence all they would have to do is ask for more gates and they would get them. Sun Country is a great place to work , and would bet most of the pilots would not want a buyout from SWA if SCA could make it on its own which they have still done in the worst of airline times!!!

 

[RedDogC130]

related Content

• Petters allegedly has $10M gambling losses

• Friday: Sun Country warns of shutdown

• Project: The Tom Petters fraud case

Sun Country Airlines, battling to survive a cash squeeze, filed for bankruptcy protection Monday in a move that separated itself from its majority stockholder, Tom Petters, whose other businesses have been taken over by a court appointee as part of a massive fraud case.
"We're not in bankruptcy because of our business model being broken," Stan Gadek, Sun Country's CEO, said in an interview. "We are in bankruptcy because of the recent events at Petters Group Worldwide."

Airline leaders say they expect to survive a cash crisis but warned of layoffs or a shutdown as early as Dec. 1 to comply with a 60-day notification law.


this is a Oct 6th article

 

[GuppyWN]

Just curious, have you actually asked any of the SWAPA reps involved in FAPA negotiations whether their spin regarding neglecting to return phone calls is true? Try it out face to face and see how they respond. You might be surprised.

Yes, actually, I have asked more than one SWAPA rep who were DIRECTLY involved. FAPA gave SWAPA the cold shoulder on Thursday. That afternoon the judges ruling became law.

Why are we talking about this again?

Gup

 

[StopNTSing]

Back to my post. As far as a fair integration IN MY MIND for a potential SunCountry and SWA merger or takeover, I would say a ratio, but having the senior SunCountry pilots (many have been there over 20 years probably---not because they are periahs, but rather they liked MSP) be blended in close to senior FOs at SWA. Maybe at the 50% point and then downward. Maybe 1 SunCountry Captain and then throw in 20 or 30 SWA FOs. In other words, keep it at SWA's favor, but don't destroy the SunCountry guys for being loyal to their previous company. You guys can come up with the ratio (30 to 1, or 35 to 1---whatever), but it allows some better QOL for some of their senior guys. Throwing them all on the bottom and given reserve for the next few years until you expand more is NOT the way to do it. That is all my opinion, and you guys have to get off the cocky train.


Bye Bye--General Lee

So if Delta decided to buy Sun Country, would you be okay with some SC pilots coming in senior to you, General?

For everyone else, I know I shouldn't feed the troll, but I really am curious about his answer.

 

[Dude]

BJK,

Why would SWAPA have any inclination to fabricate that whole story? What advantage would that give them? Now on the other hand, what would be the advantage of the FAPA dudes doing the same?

Our M & A committee and President made numerous attempts to contact Stemmler and your M & A team without a single returned email or call. Simply put, he bought what Bedford was buying and figured that we weren't bluffing about NOT going to arbitration. When he figured that we weren't going to arbitration, he likely thought Bedford's empty promises were a better deal than the poor staple job from SWAPA. Nice job having FO's at the table, though.

I really wish the best for the F9 guys, but your representation sucks. If I were an F9 dude and I knew how your FAPA guys behaved, I'd be pissed and betrayed.

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

Just curious, have you actually asked any of the SWAPA reps involved in FAPA negotiations whether their spin regarding neglecting to return phone calls is true? Try it out face to face and see how they respond. You might be surprised.

yes i have

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

Why are we talking about this again?

Gup

Its my fault. I took that General guys bait. I apologize profusely.