Strike Vote Called For at NetJets

[h25b]

US Salary Study page 59 Corporate Jet Captain (right hand column)


Citation X.......................123,000

Falcon 2000 ...................120,000

Hawker800XP/1000...........112,000

Citation Excel....................94,000

WHICH NUMBERS ARE THOSE .... THEY LOOK LIKE THE HIGH NUMBERS ... MOST FORTUNE 500 COMPANIES PAY AT ABOUT 75 - 85 % OF THE HIGH NUMBERS ...

 

[Diesel]

Yeah and most corporate departments don't fly 5 legs a day 90 hours a month. Or how about gone 17 days a month.

 

[h25b]

Lighten up Francis ... What exactly do you want ? You're not going to have it all ... You're not going to beat the average NBAA pay, or at least not without giving up significant QOL . I don't agree with everything CatYak has to say, but on one point he's right on. The corporate flight departments have one distinct advantage, they don't have to show a profit for the company and can justify themselves beyond just dollars/cents.

You wanted the airline type schedule, we'll you've got it who cares? You admit that is one of the benefits of the job for you. It's like me lobbying the boss for every other weekend off and then being ticked-off I can never get a dentist appointment on Sat.

I think the company is definately holding out on you, but they are never going to give the numbers netjetwife is throwing around. I would think the percentages of the high might be a good starting point.

 

[slowto250]

Lighten up Francis ... What exactly do you want ? You're not going to have it all ... You're not going to beat the average NBAA pay, or at least not without giving up significant QOL . I don't agree with everything CatYak has to say, but on one point he's right on. The corporate flight departments have one distinct advantage, they don't have to show a profit for the company and can justify themselves beyond just dollars/cents.

You wanted the airline type schedule, we'll you've got it who cares? You admit that is one of the benefits of the job for you. It's like me lobbying the boss for every other weekend off and then being ticked-off I can never get a dentist appointment on Sat.

I think the company is definately holding out on you, but they are never going to give the numbers netjetwife is throwing around. I would think the percentages of the high might be a good starting point.

Hey, isn't there an "up" on the lot ?

 

[oldfart]

Latest @ NetJets

I'm looking for some strainght poop as I have a classdate for Indoc of 20 June 05

1). Should I "plan" on a strike three days after I get there?
2). I refuse to be a scab - what about finishing taining (G-200) though?
3). What can I expect with a new contract (pay, workrules, etc.)?
Anything else that could influence my decision to give up CRJ IP job at Independence Air to go to NJ?

Thanks, Nick

 

[Grizz]

h25b -

Got a dog in this fight? Nope? I didn't think so.

I noticed that you have a strong opinion of what we should be earning. Problem is - we don't really care what your opinion is. This is our fight and we're going to go after every penny we can. You sitting on this board telling us that we are doomed to failure because we have a better schedule matters not one bit to the pilots at NetJets.

I'm pretty sure they have both a corporate and a charter section of the boards here. Since that seems to be your area of expertise, why don't you jump on over there and share your expert knowledge with all those folks. Maybe some of them will actually give a rat's patoot about it.

 

[buttercup]

Lighten up Francis ... What exactly do you want ? You're not going to have it all ... You're not going to beat the average NBAA pay, or at least not without giving up significant QOL . I don't agree with everything CatYak has to say, but on one point he's right on. The corporate flight departments have one distinct advantage, they don't have to show a profit for the company and can justify themselves beyond just dollars/cents.

You wanted the airline type schedule, we'll you've got it who cares? You admit that is one of the benefits of the job for you. It's like me lobbying the boss for every other weekend off and then being ticked-off I can never get a dentist appointment on Sat.

I think the company is definately holding out on you, but they are never going to give the numbers netjetwife is throwing around. I would think the percentages of the high might be a good starting point.

Then that's the risk they are going to have to take. Read the book 'Hard Landings" . Management surely has a contingency plan in case we strike, as has every management throughout history in this industry. That plan relies on X number of people crossing a picket -line. If nobody crosses the picket-line at Nutjets then a strike will work. 95 percent of the guys seem to be truly unified , there are some weak dicks though. I feel so bad for someone if they are scared of losing a job that offers so little.

 

[h25b]

h25b -

Got a dog in this fight? Nope? I didn't think so.

I noticed that you have a strong opinion of what we should be earning. Problem is - we don't really care what your opinion is. This is our fight and we're going to go after every penny we can. You sitting on this board telling us that we are doomed to failure because we have a better schedule matters not one bit to the pilots at NetJets.

I'm pretty sure they have both a corporate and a charter section of the boards here. Since that seems to be your area of expertise, why don't you jump on over there and share your expert knowledge with all those folks. Maybe some of them will actually give a rat's patoot about it.

Well sir, obviously you've been sleeping through your own union's rhetoric because against the wishes of everyone else not to be involved you've all been doing a pretty good job of doing exactly that. First, with the single carrier lawsuit, second with the scab-listing threat for the 135 guys, and then with all of this "less-safe, less-trained, less-productive" garbage. Like I've said a thousand times, you keep double talking. Diesel says one place that he loves the schedule and then complains about it when arguing for the money. You point to the rest of the industry wanting the compensation they have, and then you go insult them all by threatening them and calling them less-safe, less-trained, etc...

I agree you're underpaid and would love to see you get a raise. But you'll get a lot farther with one consistant message that tends to garner support from the other areas of the industry.

And I don't believe you have a better schedule. It's great for becoming a Marriott Rewards member, but sucks if you'd like to raise a family. So to correct you sir, yes I do have a dog in this fight. Although unwillingly thanks you...

 

[Grizz]

I'm looking for some strainght poop as I have a classdate for Indoc of 20 June 05

1). Should I "plan" on a strike three days after I get there?
2). I refuse to be a scab - what about finishing taining (G-200) though?
3). What can I expect with a new contract (pay, workrules, etc.)?
Anything else that could influence my decision to give up CRJ IP job at Independence Air to go to NJ?

Thanks, Nick

Nick -

1) No one knows right now because everything is in the hands of the three members of the NMB. Both the company and the union have been summoned to NMB headquarters in DC on the 20th of May. The two most likely outcomes of that meeting are a recess from negotiations or the offer of binding arbitration. If arbitration is offered, that's the path that will lead to us being able to strike after a 30 day cooling off period. I would plan on that being a real possibility.

2) If we are authorized a work action, all pilots at NetJets on the seniority list are expected to stop working. That includes pilots in training.

3) We don't know what the eventual contract will be. I would look at our failed TA and expect more than that. How much more remains to be seen. The company's latest proposal had guys on the 7&7 making 86K at year 5 Captain's pay. It also had no overtime, required us to pay for our health care out of that pay, had no 401K and lowered the pay rate for extended days. It was extremely regressive over what was offered in the failed TA. It shocked all of us that the offer was so bad. It also angered even the most loyal "company men" we have on property. It was an incredibly insulting offer.

Got a old buddy of mine that's on the CRJ at Indy. He was my DO when I flew EC-130s at Keesler. His name is Jim Whiting. If you bump into him, tell him Griz said hey.

 

[buttercup]

Well sir, obviously you've been sleeping through your own union's rhetoric because against the wishes of everyone else not to be involved you've all been doing a pretty good job of doing exactly that. First, with the single carrier lawsuit, second with the scab-listing threat for the 135 guys, and then with all of this "less-safe, less-trained, less-productive" garbage. Like I've said a thousand times, you keep double talking. Diesel says one place that he loves the schedule and then complains about it when arguing for the money. You point to the rest of the industry wanting the compensation they have, and then you go insult them all by threatening them and calling them less-safe, less-trained, etc...

I agree you're underpaid and would love to see you get a raise. But you'll get a lot farther with one consistant message that tends to garner support from the other areas of the industry.

The schedule at Nutjets is fuc*ing overrated anyway. I envy the schedules of some of my buddies in corporate world. Would you rather be away from home half the year for a week at a time, or have 5 hard days off a month and do 3 or 4 overnights a month. I'd choose the latter.

 

[Diesel]

I loved the 7n7 i'm on the 17 day now and it just sucks. Ahhh another 2 day turn greeeat.

The companies offer in the last week has been the most disgusting proposal i've ever seen. It shows that they truely don't believe we have any value in the company. This is just compounded more by the fact that they offer tuition reimbursement to everyone except the pilots.

This place has truely shown it's colors. They better be ready for an interesting ride.

 

[h25b]

I loved the 7n7 i'm on the 17 day now and it just sucks. Ahhh another 2 day turn greeeat.

The companies offer in the last week has been the most disgusting proposal i've ever seen. It shows that they truely don't believe we have any value in the company. This is just compounded more by the fact that they offer tuition reimbursement to everyone except the pilots.

This place has truely shown it's colors. They better be ready for an interesting ride.

I am not trying to tick you off and you are right, things like tuition reimbursement for everyone else is ridiculous. I'm just curious what you want.

 

[Grizz]

Well sir, obviously you've been sleeping through your own union's rhetoric because against the wishes of everyone else not to be involved you've all been doing a pretty good job of doing exactly that. First, with the single carrier lawsuit, second with the scab-listing threat for the 135 guys, and then with all of this "less-safe, less-trained, less-productive" garbage. Like I've said a thousand times, you keep double talking. Diesel says one place that he loves the schedule and then complains about it when arguing for the money. You point to the rest of the industry wanting the compensation they have, and then you go insult them all by threatening them and calling them less-safe, less-trained, etc...

I'll take these point by point. The single carrier thing is a matter of law. Simplified way down, the law states that a company can't operate a non-union operation doing the same job in a union shop. They've been doing it for years and our leadership just never had the guts to challenge it. That has changed. We'll let the courts decide whether or not the case has merit. We feel it does. If the company feels it does, they will probably negotiate the transition in this contract to make it as painless as possible on all parties.

I've not seen the "scab-list" threat on here from any credible source. I know most of the NetJets pilots screen names on here. I know ALL screen names of the leadership that gets on here. Not one of them has ever mentioned anything about putting 135 guys on any list. I'm on the weekly leadership calls with the union. It's never been brought up there either. Some nameless, faceless rant on this board doesn't count. You getting your panties in a wad over it was exactly what that poster wanted to happen. Ever think it might have been a company stooge trying to make us look bad? Get over it - it isn't an issue. We don't have any plans to go after 135 guys doing their jobs.

The "best-trained pilots" is simply using the company's propaganda against them. It's called negotiations. They use that idea to sell planes. We'll use it to demand better wages.

Now that I've gone over all this with you, you really have no reason to keep rehashing it. I'm pretty sure you're going to do it anyway. You have nothing better to do with your time than get on here and post about something that doesn't effect you one way or the other. I'm here because I have a pretty big stake in the outcome and because I'm bored after many months sitting around my house with a back healing from surgery. What's your excuse?

 

[Diesel]

What we want is 6S.

There are guys here that blew out there frigging back working here. I mean holy crap they have to have operations to fix all the hard work they put into this company.

Now the company comes at us with a regressive pay and benefits package. I don't think so.

Oh and i"m not mad just very dissapointed. This company was built on the backs of the pilots and now it's time we get what we worked for.

 

[h25b]

I've not seen the "scab-list" threat on here from any credible source. I know most of the NetJets pilots screen names on here. I know ALL screen names of the leadership that gets on here. Not one of them has ever mentioned anything about putting 135 guys on any list. I'm on the weekly leadership calls with the union. It's never been brought up there either. Some nameless, faceless rant on this board doesn't count. You getting your panties in a wad over it was exactly what that poster wanted to happen. Ever think it might have been a company stooge trying to make us look bad? Get over it - it isn't an issue. We don't have any plans to go after 135 guys doing their jobs.

Ah, good, just what I thought... This proves netjetwife is full of s&^t...

Thanks... I am serious, you're the first person I think I've seen to come out and definitively clear the 135 scab-list thing up. As for the "less-safe", "less-trained", etc... Still out of bounds in my book because your web-site doesn't clarify who the original source was (management) to the readers...

 

[FAcFriend]

about tuition reimbursement-

Dont the pilots get paid training? Arent you also paid for the time you spend in training?

How is that different from paid tuition when they pay for courses related to your job and you have to take them on your own time?

 

[Diesel]

h25b look at my post a couple of pages earlier about 135 guys. there is no way they are going to be called scabs. I'm not going to want my buddies get in trouble for MY fight not theirs.

facfriend- i'm talking about taking college courses.

 

[semperfido]

about tuition reimbursement-

Dont the pilots get paid training? Arent you also paid for the time you spend in training?

How is that different from paid tuition when they pay for courses related to your job and you have to take them on your own time?

my last employer paid for my masters degree --it is fairly common among good Co.

 

[Rubber Ducky]

H25b... Congratulations... You have succesfully annoyed me to the posting point. Please go away, you aren't wanted here. And no, I am not a NJ pilot. I do support the NJ pilots and applaud their efforts to earn a wage that allows them to own a home. Now without disrespect h25b, "look, but don't touch" that keyboard. Thanks.

 

[h25b]

H25b... Congratulations... You have succesfully annoyed me to the posting point. Please go away, you aren't wanted here. And no, I am not a NJ pilot. I do support the NJ pilots and applaud their efforts to earn a wage that allows them to own a home. Now without disrespect h25b, "look, but don't touch" that keyboard. Thanks.

Oh darn ...

 

[PseudoName]

Ya missed the part that says 18% of our pilots are on food stamps. I bet your NOT!

You are right, I don't qualify for food stamps....I just live within my means.

You believe that a family can't live on 28K the first year?? I survived on 20K for my first job, providing for a family and making a mortgage payment. We did just fine. Of course, we didn't have a townhouse in Manhattan or an apartment on the beach!

I know a 1st year NJA guy who just built a new house and lives within his means. He has no outside resources other than his salary at NJA. Maybe your 18% on food stamps should find out his secret.

 

[buttercup]

You are right, I don't qualify for food stamps....I just live within my means.

You believe that a family can't live on 28K the first year?? I survived on 20K for my first job, providing for a family and making a mortgage payment. We did just fine. Of course, we didn't have a townhouse in Manhattan or an apartment on the beach!

I know a 1st year NJA guy who just built a new house and lives within his means. He has no outside resources other than his salary at NJA. Maybe your 18% on food stamps should find out his secret.

What part of the country do you live in?

 

[Diesel]

great i really want to live in the midwest and tip cows all night.

For those of us that live in the northeast 20k is poverty wage.

 

[PseudoName]

There are others, both on the handout and in Pro Pilot, but these are the 4 mentioned in PN's post. Do note that on the graph, the XL bar is just under the 100K line. Nor is there any mention of AVERAGE salaries.

OK, wifey....I am corrected. I just assumed that a Union would choose to use an average salary....since that is reasonable and fair. That's what the majority of us in corporate aviation uses, and since you are demanding to be paid like the rest of us, maybe you ought to use numbers more in line with the rest of us.

Did ya notice that there is a 20-30K difference in the average salary and top dollar? I bet your owners would.

Do you guys even realize that your owners talk with their buddies who have flight departments and own their airplanes? They discuss what they pay their pilots.....I know my boss does. You guys only work 17 days a month. A corporate flight department is on call 365/7! Although we don't fly every day, in the NJA owners mind, he is probably thinking why on earth should NJA pay its pilots near what his buddy pays his flight crew who are on call 365/7. If you think your owners are going to believe the B$ you are pumping them with....well, you will find out what will happen.

 

[PseudoName]

great i really want to live in the midwest and tip cows all night.

For those of us that live in the northeast 20k is poverty wage.

Oh yeah, if you spend all your money on beer and porn!

Come on, who are you kidding. I lived in the Northeast and made 22K, lived in a nice apartment, had food on the table and put a little in savings. I didn't have alot of stuff, though.

As I stated earlier......I lived within my means.

 

[Diesel]

Only crappy corporate departments are on call 24/7. Good ones have enough pilots to schedule hard days off. What your talking about is a charter outfit. I'm sure g200 would say that he has plenty of hard days off.

So you lived in the northeast with a family at 22k? Yeah right. Anybody can live on 20k in some craphole apartment in the combat zone of boston.

Pseudo I don't really care about your plight, or the fact YOU can live on 22k. Not my problem. I don't care. We are fighting for a better QOL. Accept it and stop trying to bring negativity.

 

[semperfido]

Oh yeah, if you spend all your money on beer and porn!

Come on, who are you kidding. I lived in the Northeast and made 22K, lived in a nice apartment, had food on the table and put a little in savings. I didn't have alot of stuff, though.

As I stated earlier......I lived within my means.

good for you...now go back to your apt and eat some hot dogs and beans

 

[FAcFriend]

Diesel

I Understood you want them to pay for your college too. But corp pays for courses related to your job -

If you are a pilot they pay for your training related to your job AND pay for your time to take them-

For other employees they pay for courses related to their jobs and do not pay for the time for the employees to take them.

 

[PseudoName]

Yeah and most corporate departments don't fly 5 legs a day 90 hours a month. Or how about gone 17 days a month.

AvCrew Pilot Survey 2004

Fractional Pilot - Average Days Flown/Month 16.4
Charter Pilot - Average Days Flown/Month 17.7

Fractional Pilot - Average RONs/Month 13.1
Charter Pilot - Average RONs/Month 6.2

Looks like you guys are pretty close to flying the same amount of days that the charter world does. Yes, you have more RONs on the average (I am doing 14.5/month), but when you are home....you are home, no pager, no phone to answer!

The survey doesn't take into account that although a charter pilot flies more days on average than a NJA pilot does, the other days during the month, the pilot is on call....ready to fly.

 

[FAcFriend]

semper,

I dont know how long ago you worked for your old company. many companies in the past did alot of things-

things change. I know of few companies today that will pay for you to take courses that are not directly related to your present job.

In fact, I cannot name one.

PS how many of the general population of ALL workers in this country that have two children and two wage earners are on WIC. Wic is different BTW than food stamps... (you gotta be poor to know these things!!)