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Strike/Netjets

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NJ will never hire scab pilots. So don't worry about that.

The cost train them would be more than if they settled a contract.

What kind of job would it be for a scab pilot after any strike when everyone know who he is and has to fly and live with someone for 7 days and nights.
The job would be pure hell for any scab pilot, so that won't even be an issue.

The issue is to stick together to get the best contract you can.
 
"I like arrogance in a pilot."

A movie quote from a nonpilot actor. Correct?

I know that a majority of our PAX won't want to fly with a hastilly hired and trained Scab Air Force.

In fact they do not even want to ride on the plane when our SICs move the controls. Many insist that the Captain fly the trip and have filed complaints and asked Why was the Captain not flying my trip.

Interesting. Hastily trained...how long were you trained? Your replacement may be trained just as quickly...and just how does the customer know this? You're concerned about the customer worrying about who in which seat is doing what...but pilots wearing the same uniform, flying the airplane the same as you do now...are indistinguishable. The passenger doesn't know the difference, only you do. How is the passenger to know that it's not just another run of the mill pilot up front? Truth, the passenger doesn't know. Just you.

The truth? You are replacable. Never forget that.

And in a multi-place aircraft, there are only three things the copilot
should ever say:

1. Nice landing, Sir.
2. I'll buy the first round.
3. I'll take the fat chick.

I realize that your post is tongue-in-cheek, but I've met far too many arrogant pilots in my career that looked at a copilot or first officer as baggage, who believed that the copilot didn't shoulder any legal, moral, or practical responsibility, and that the copilot is there to make the captain look good. Lots of folks out there like that today, and the attitude makes me sick...and violently angry. I don't treat my copilots like that, and I'd sure like to urinate on those who do.

2. You can't fly forever without getting killed.

Far from a truth, a foolish notion. The truth is that you may fly the most statistically-dangerous missions in the world for life and not get hurt or killed. The truth is also that you may be killed on your first sortie. The resignation that one will eventually buy the farm if one flies long enough is submission to a sense of fate; it's giving up, and by it's very nature, is insanity.

7 The pilot is the highest form of life on earth.

Only in terms of physical altitude, or the bar when a few get together and start drinking. Pilots are individuals, but I'd put about 90% of the pilot population on the bottom rungs as far as quality of character and value on the humanity scale. The other ten percent are okay.

9. About check rides:
a. The only real objective of a check ride is to complete it and get the
bxxtard out of your airplane.
b. It has never occurred to any flight examiner that the examinee
couldn't care less what the examiner's opinion of his flying ability really
is.

The only goal during a checkride or practical test should be to impress. Not to pass; anybody can do that. But to impress. Anything less should always be unacceptable. I do care what the check airman's opinion is. It's a reflection of another's view of my performance, it's a reality check, and it's a way of viewing another's criticism to seek ways to improve. Yes, I do care.

15. If you're gonna fly low, do not fly slow!

Some of us would never get any work done if that were true. How about if you have no business flying low, then don't get slow. Otherwise, the airplane is there to be worked. Work it.

21. The concept of "controlling" airspace with radar is just a form of FAA
sarcasm directed at pilots to see if they're gullible enough to swallow it.
Or to put it another way, when's the last time the FAA ever shot anyone
down?

When your pilot certificate is suspended, you won't need to make cute comments about being shot down. The Administrator needn't shoot you down to control you.

22. Remember that the radio is only an electronic suggestion box for the
pilot. Sometimes the only way to clear up a problem is to turn it off.

The radio is a tool, and an important one...but only a tool. Turning it off doesn't clear up any problems, however, any more than turning your back and walking away during a conversation.

25. Mastering the prohibited maneuvers in the Aircraft's Operations Manual
is one of the best forms of aviation life insurance you can get.

Perhaps if one is talking about the best way to end one's life in an airplane...do you suggest that practicing and mastering all the maneuvers which are prohibited in the airplane provides one some measure of safety or insurance against mishap? If that's true, then perhaps it's also true that if one lives long enough one will eventually die in an airplane...but dying in an airplane isn't necessary so long as one doesn't do stupid things like mastering prohibited maneuvers.
 
El Chupacabra said:
In fact they do not even want to ride on the plane when our SICs move the controls. Many insist that the Captain fly the trip and have filed complaints and asked Why was the Captain not flying my trip.

How does NetJets do IOE's? At Part 121 airlines I've often wondered what the pax in the back would think if they knew they were on a training flight.
 
avbug said:
A movie quote from a nonpilot actor. Correct?

Interesting. Hastily trained...how long were you trained? Your replacement may be trained just as quickly...and just how does the customer know this? You're concerned about the customer worrying about who in which seat is doing what...but pilots wearing the same uniform, flying the airplane the same as you do now...are indistinguishable. The passenger doesn't know the difference, only you do. How is the passenger to know that it's not just another run of the mill pilot up front? Truth, the passenger doesn't know. Just you.

The truth? You are replacable. Never forget that.
This company seems to take about 6 months to train and release a X PIC. They don't have 6 months. I don't think they would have a week. They cannot cancel flights. Additionally, how many X simulators are available to run 24/7, and how long will it take to use these sims to punch out 400 X-rated pilots? How much will it cost to type 400 pilots?

How will THEY know: WSJ ads, billboards right next the major FBOs. Picket lines. They will know.

The truth... replaceable... not in time to avoid severe financial losses and as Publishers correctly pointed out -- a crippling exodus of customers....

Its better for everybody if they just pay.
 
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AirBear8 said:
How does NetJets do IOE's? At Part 121 airlines I've often wondered what the pax in the back would think if they knew they were on a training flight.

SICs fly the empty legs and receive IOE on those legs. They then fly hundreds of hours before they ever do PIC IOE. Its a training flight but on a plane you have hundreds of hours Flying from the LEFT seat. Yes thats right. SICs fly their legs from the Left seat.

So really even though its IOE, generally the IOE pilot has hundreds if not over 1000 hours in the plane... when he does his first Pax leg. AHHH but this will not be the case if a Scab Air Force takes my place....
 
Gee.......4 days later and almost 2400 veiws. All I did was post a simple question.Everyone replied quicker than flies landing on a fresh roadkill.
I do not fly fractional and trying to keep it that way, Im just an old Cub Driver, might go into crop dusting, a proffesion without upset pilots.
Is there anyone that actually enjoys flying for Netjets?

Cub Guy
 
Yes!

Yes, I enjoy flying for NJA and by far the majority of those I fly with enjoy flying for NJA. I believe the underlying point is a warning to prospective new hires so they know what they have coming and don't set thieir expectations too high. If I were on FO pay for the past 3.5 years I would never have stuck around, no matter how much I enjoy the job.
 
We had 15 pilots quit in January and so far in February we're up to 10 that have bailed. That's with an expectation of a fairly large retro check / signing bonus and they're still quitting. That should tell you something right there.

The company was able to get 20 pilots to stay in training in January. I haven't seen the February numbers yet. One of the applicants posted on this board that at the most recent job fair he attended, the NetJets table looked like a ghost town while all others had lines. Knowing that we're at least 400 pilots short right now, How long will it take them to get there with a net gain of 5 pilots a month?

The company has to get this contract done for more reasons than just worrying about a strike. They can't recruit enough qualified applicants right now - what makes you think things will be easier if we go out on strike?
 
Warning

I am a G4 driver for NJI, and my observations are as follows.

We do many trips for owners who fly on both sides of the company, and their comments about the lack of professionalism of the A side are manifold. I believe, if there is a strike, the owners will back Santulli, and accept the inconvenience of the transition to a non-union workplace. I know we at NJI would enthusiastically help keep things going, as the behavior of the malevolent twenty percent of NJA union hard liners is disgraceful.
Why don't the NJA pilots, most of whom are good people, flush the union, deal with Santulli on their own, and see what happens? If the results are not satisfactory, a new union could always be formed. We at NJI are very happy with how we are treated, and feel the NJA folks would be too!
I will now brace myself for the scathing attacks to follow.
 
G4dude, No need to worry about the bashing. It is just empty noise. Remember, the 20% you speak of are the same ones who said the recently departed MEC would bring them the CONTRACT to END all CONTRACTS and make NJA the Delta of the Fractional. Well, looks to me like these guys are just FARTING into the WIND. The resounding defeat of the TA speaks volumes about the control exercised by management. "IF AN OWNER CAN AFFORD TO BE IN A FRACTIONAL, THAT SAME OWNER CAN AFFORD NOT TO BE IN A FRACTIONAL."

The NEW MEC ain't done nothing except get elected. Yeah, a lot of back slaping and hand shaking but NOTHING, NADDA, ZIP so far and MEDIATION IS THE WORD OF THE DAY.
 
Grizz said:
We had 15 pilots quit in January and so far in February we're up to 10 that have bailed. That's with an expectation of a fairly large retro check / signing bonus and they're still quitting. That should tell you something right there.

The company was able to get 20 pilots to stay in training in January. I haven't seen the February numbers yet. One of the applicants posted on this board that at the most recent job fair he attended, the NetJets table looked like a ghost town while all others had lines. Knowing that we're at least 400 pilots short right now, How long will it take them to get there with a net gain of 5 pilots a month?

The company has to get this contract done for more reasons than just worrying about a strike. They can't recruit enough qualified applicants right now - what makes you think things will be easier if we go out on strike?

I hope you're right about the number of pilots leaving. But NJA is still being a bit picky in the interview process. They sure make you jump through a lot of hoops. (online test, 1.5 day interview process, etc.) I've talked to some who have interviewed in the past few weeks. One guy's sim partner was turned down because of his sim ride but told he could reapply in 6 months and only have to take the sim over again and not the rest of the process. So they can't be that desperate for warm bodies. Hell, I've got 10,000+ hours and I haven't done a NDB hold without a glass cockpit and FMS to figure it for me in over a decade. Even on our checkrides we use the FMS and autopilot for holding and the initial part of the approach. So despite all my experience I could easily bust the sim.

NJA's problem at the job fair was that there were 2 groups of pilots; ex-major airline types and youngsters looking for a $16K/yr RJ right seat. There were even outfits like Cape Air with a booth at the fair. The ex-majors were wanting to talk to SWA, AWA, and Cathay Pacific. The youngsters aren't qualified enough for NJA and most the older pilots are holding out for a major. The NJA reps weren't by themselves that much of the time because the job fair wasn't that crowded so once you talked to the airlines I mentioned above some would go around to the booths just to learn about the companies. But I never saw more than 2 or 3 people in line for NJA.
 
Grim Reaper, I agree. By the way, what do you think of dumping the union, negotiating with Santulli, and see what happens? Works for us at NJI!
 
G4dude said:
Grim Reaper, I agree. By the way, what do you think of dumping the union, negotiating with Santulli, and see what happens? Works for us at NJI!

I'd give it a try - couldn't do any worse than we're doing now.
 
I agree that if I was at NJI I would be pretty happy. This is not an attack, BUT any rational person has to realize that some of the benefits NJI realizes are there for the very reason to keep you happy and non-union (7and7 comes to mind). How do you know how BB would treat you if there wasn't a union on this side?

I have seen zero indication that BB or RTS are a Steve Wynn or Herb K...and for the job you guys do at NJI you are underpaid and overworked as well when compared to to top 50% of Gulfstream jobs. IMO RTS isin't doing you any favors except for pissing on us to show you how much worse it could be.
 
AirBear8 said:
I hope you're right about the number of pilots leaving.

Seeing as I have the attrition list right in front of me, I'm pretty sure my numbers are correct. In the next day or so, I'll have the new seniority list and see how many they added in February. That will give a clear indication of how well their efforts are going.
 
G4,

Since Grim Reaper doesn't work for NJA - why are you asking him questions about our representation?
 
bluepost said:
I agree that if I was at NJI I would be pretty happy. This is not an attack, BUT any rational person has to realize that some of the benefits NJI realizes are there for the very reason to keep you happy and non-union (7and7 comes to mind). How do you know how BB would treat you if there wasn't a union on this side?

I have seen zero indication that BB or RTS are a Steve Wynn or Herb K...and for the job you guys do at NJI you are underpaid and overworked as well when compared to to top 50% of Gulfstream jobs. IMO RTS isin't doing you any favors except for pissing on us to show you how much worse it could be.


I am generally in agreement, but here is a thought: Dump the union, see what Santulli does, and you are not happy, get a union back in again. You are in no worse shape than you are now. Those of us at NJI feel the union is the wrong answer to the right question. In other words, the union is the problem, not the solution. The leverage you have against Santulli is the threat to go union if he doesn't make you happy, which is precisely one of the reasons why we are treated rather well in Hilton Head.
 
Grizz said:
G4,

Since Grim Reaper doesn't work for NJA - why are you asking him questions about our representation?

My questions are general, more philosophical than specific about representation. I see so many unhappy NJA pilots, I wish it all would work out well for everyone.
 
Hey G4dude next time your in the ES at TEB and find yourself in NJA's crewroom you will want to thank the union.

So let's see. Give up the union. No contract. Let the company do to us what they feel like. Change our schedule. Change our work rules. No thanks. I'll pass on that.

You might want to ask the FLOPS guys about some of the changes that managment are imposing on the pilots.

Don't be fooled. You don't have it so good because your non union. You have it so good because santulli likes to pit the two companies against each other.
 
G4dude said:
Grim Reaper, I agree. By the way, what do you think of dumping the union, negotiating with Santulli, and see what happens? Works for us at NJI!

I have been around the block a few times. I have seen MEC members come and go. Each time a new MEC comes in there is great fan fare but not much action. Managements digs in a bit deeper with every new MEC. Yeah, I know there is there rare UNINTED deal but, as we have seen, it does not last long. The average United 73 captain is making about 110K. So, you Ultra guys want 150k. The math is bad and sad.

Negotiating with Santulli? Why think about something that ain't gonna happen. Just remember, "the OWNER THAT CAN AFFORD TO BE IN A FRACTIONAL CAN AFFORD NOT TO BE IN A FRACTIONAL." It is all about what the owner is willing to pay. Is the average owner willing to pay 4.5 pilots per acft 150K per Year? No! and what part of NO are you NJA guys having trouble with?

Just how many pilots in any corporate shop are making the dollars you guys expect? One out of the three pilots employed. Heck, the average private owner only has one or maybe two full time guys while relying on CONTRACT guys for the rest. CONTRACT GUYS -- JUST A DAILY RATE TWO OR THREE DAYS A MONTH WITH NO BENEFITS, ETC.
 
Why is 150k unreasonable for an Ultra pilot? Because you say so? The airlines are losing money. We're making a ton. Throws that out the window.

If santulli can't afford to pay us what we want then just shut it down. If an owner can't afford to have a well paid professional crew up front then he shouldn't be in this buisness.

G200 will probably chime in here and I'd like him to. We work a lot harder day in and day out. In the ultra I did 5 legs a day 10-14hrs a day for a whole week. When's the last time a corporate pilot did that?

Remember oranges to oranges. We are not corporate pilots and we are not airline pilots.

We are fractional pilots. Period and we WILL set the industry leading pay.
 
G4Dude...I can see how that view from the NJI side of the fence could make sense, but from our side it looks a bit different. Santulli will not give us a 50k a year raise if we vote out the union, no way, no how, even with work rule concessions. Now he may not give it to the union either, but at least there is a chance to fight back and try and help protect pilot wages from erosion with a union.


Like Grim says, these folks are going to fly on jets with or without Netjets around, and chances are they will pay more than NJ is willing to pay. So I know it sounds dramatic, but shut this place down and let them buy thier own aircraft and hire me to fly thier X for 110k a year, or pay us 125k for the extra 50 RONs and extra 200 hours we fly a year here.

In my view we have already landed at Omaha beach and your asking us to retreat and go back to diplomatic discussions with Hitler. It is easy to forget as a relative outsider how long and how hard we have fought to this point. This battle is not new and we have just gained a small foothold imo...no turning back now.

We are fighting this fight for us, AND ALL pilots out there. I hope every pilot in every industry benefits from this fight, because if we lose they will surely feel the downward pressure of our loss. ("NJ fought for 4 years for 80k a year? Why am I paying you 110k? You only flew 300 hours, they fly 500 hours....etc...")
 
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Diesel said:
Why is 150k unreasonable for an Ultra pilot? Because you say so? The airlines are losing money. We're making a ton. Throws that out the window.


$150,000 a year! ROTFLMFAO
 
150k is funny? Your not still working for rattler because that's the funny part.

Oh and we're not a freight company either
 
Rattler71 said:
$150,000 a year! ROTFLMFAO


I want whatever drugs you guys are taking that makes you think you are getting $150,000 a year. Please, Please share!

And btw, we fly hundreds of passenger charters a year. Since you are so uninformed.

Rattler
 
Why is that so absurd? Because your not making it or because you never asked for it. You have no idea what we do but you feel the need to interject your opinion?
 
Heck...om a type rated J3 pilot...I should make 80K a year if a Ultra driver can make 150K, and thats without an autopilot or an eletrical system.

Cub guy
 
Well, with the bar resting on the floor anything you get would be industry leading.
As to working harder you knew what you signed up for when you signed the training contract. Did you think the company was going to let you sit in Cancun for your 7 day tour.


Diesel said:
Why is 150k unreasonable for an Ultra pilot? Because you say so? The airlines are losing money. We're making a ton. Throws that out the window.

If santulli can't afford to pay us what we want then just shut it down. If an owner can't afford to have a well paid professional crew up front then he shouldn't be in this buisness.

G200 will probably chime in here and I'd like him to. We work a lot harder day in and day out. In the ultra I did 5 legs a day 10-14hrs a day for a whole week. When's the last time a corporate pilot did that?

Remember oranges to oranges. We are not corporate pilots and we are not airline pilots.

We are fractional pilots. Period and we WILL set the industry leading pay.
 
Diesel said:
Why is that so absurd? Because your not making it or because you never asked for it. You have no idea what we do but you feel the need to interject your opinion?

Well, I do have some idea of what you do. I have been flying in this industry for 27 years. And this is a public forum and the good ol USA, so yes, I am entitled to an opinion.

I hope you do get $150,000 a year. But it will never happen. I wouldn't go out and buy that new Corvette yet if I were you.

I think you should quit taking those uppers and downers you so proudly advertise.
 

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