STOP PAYING YOUR Fltop UNION DUES!

[CA1900]

NJ upgraded an existing contract, the change wasn't made because the carrier was strapped...

Wholly irrelevant. You said, "There isn't a union in the world that has given up pay and/benefits to protect the bottom third of a seniority list or fired pilots." On that point, you're wrong.

Historically, when a carrier is strapped for cash, the union will always negotiate for higher wages and fewer pilots than to keep all the pilots and take a pay cut to save their jobs.

You mean the way AirTran's union agreed to a 10% pay cut after 9/11 to keep from having to furlough?

Keep those "union facts" coming...

 

[400pilot]

I was told by a dependable and trustworthy source in CGF that HIG has instructed the company to shut the doors and liquidate all assets beginning in July if the Union will not agree to negotiate with the current proposal the company has offered. HIG did not pay that much for Flight Options and they feel they can get their money back with a small return and then invest it into an actual business that will work. Knowing this, I would say we take B’s email very seriously.

A few points.....

1. HIG payed over $250 for Options.
2. Prior to the sale, Raytheon had disclosed that cost to buy back shares and existing sales exceeded $550 million.
3. Flight Options leases everything except its core fleet of about 40 aircraft, most of which are beechjets. All Xs and Legacys are leased.

If HIG were to liquidate, it might get around $200 to $250 million for the aircraft. This does not take into account time for sale of aircraft and the fair market reduction that would occur when the market becomes saturated with excess stock. They would also have to buy back sales and contracts. Even if it is only half of what Raytheon claimed last year, that means HIG is into it for $500 million +. They are not going to recover their investment if they liquidate. In fact, they will lose at least twice what they paid.

Also, companies do not just liquidate in such a short period of time after acquisition without various attempts at making a profit. This especially holds true for something as financially insignificant as a contract that would not cost much more than what they just offered. No one in their right mind would throw away $500 million over $10 million.

You are either lying because you want the carrot, or were lied to and are ignorant enough to believe it. Why don't you go check out our chairman's response to Bob's letter. I know the people on the MEC and they are good, honorable men. They are pilots here and want a contract as bad as you do..plus there is no fruit or benefit to them for lying about anything. Ask yourself who benefits the most from not having a contract. Ask yourself who benefits the most from delaying a contract. The answer is clear.....

 

[fischman]

Three years of turmoil, a stagnant airline with no growth and now a failing economic environment, and it's clear, your union didn't get it done.

What do airlines have to do with this?

 

[William Holiday]

To each and every Flight Options Pilot.

You already work for a company.......

You already work for a company that will change the rules and BLAME YOU for it.....no examples needed here...You all know what I'm speaking of.

You already work for a company a company that wont even protect its sickest employees. YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR INSURANCE....USE YOUR LONG TERM DISABILTY to make your cobra payments. WE DON'T CARE IF YOU HAVE A ROOF OVER YOUR HEAD or FOOD TO EAT!

You already wor for a company that will fire you for no cause.

NO CGF 1 ARR
No Written Warning
No Verbal Warning
No Warning.....period

You already work for compny, that won't even give a
employee survey.. They know how bad you have it.
They just don't care.

You already work for a company, that now, wants to take the last thing that you do control.......YOUR DIGNITY AND YOUR SELF RESPECT.

This fight is much bigger than Flight Options. Many thousands are watching.....and waiting.

Don't let......FEAR.......be your guide.

 

[HSDriver]

MS, F&H, Bob, Epply, Marker, et all...

Every pilot I have talked to is disregarding your deadline and ready to close the doors on this place if you can't meet industry standard. Best of luck to you all, and good luck to the next group of pilots MS ventures on to.

HS

 

[B19 Flyer]

What do airlines have to do with this?

The same thing that IBT and truck drivers have with 1108. They are the same thing as pilots, right? They both have operators who are certificated to transport goods nationwide and have the same union control them.

You don't know the difference between a drop, a drip, a seepage and a leak, I sure as hell wouldn't expect you to understand the finer points of certifying 91K, 135 and 121 air carriers that are all certificated under Part 119.

 

[B19 Flyer]

[/color][/size][/font]Wholly irrelevant. You said, "There isn't a union in the world that has given up pay and/benefits to protect the bottom third of a seniority list or fired pilots." On that point, you're wrong.




You mean the way AirTran's union agreed to a 10% pay cut after 9/11 to keep from having to furlough?

Keep those "union facts" coming...

Actually, I was thinking about ALL THE OTHERS that didn't and furloughed thousands.

 

[HiSpeedFlyer]

There isn't a union in the world that has given up pay and/benefits to protect the bottom third of a seniority list or fired pilots.

Wrong..... look at NJ.....
To the union, they are simply the cost of doing business. Always have been, always will be.
Wrong again...no one will be left behind, any novice lawyer will tell you that... $$$$
Dig your feet in, scream, yell and say whatever you want, the union has failed you at Flight Options to this point. Those guys are toast, and the decision to place a union on the property is in large part responsible for their job losses
Wrong yet again, Blame F and H... standard operating procedures
Three years of turmoil, a stagnant airline with no growth and now a failing economic environment, and it's clear, your union didn't get it done.
When did Flops become and Airline??
These guys are gonna "show" those managers, just like the Eastern guys did.
Sigh...this arguement is getting old, need I remind you, B:
The old way is not the way...
The ancient truth not literal today....
I can only imagine what the boards are going to write about me when it goes down as I said it would.
Easy, Your the same scumbag who still thinks he can see into the future and brays forth his misguided thoughts like a wounded donkey. Furthermore, you are a confused individual who thinks you were married to a very angry broad shouldered man.
Not a single person on these boards will ever admit "they got what they asked for!"

Rubbish, pure, Rubbish spewed forward by the Almighty Fear Grenade tosser....

Boom! There goes another calculated tactic by F and H....gee whiz, I wonder what is next in their playbook...

.. Stall Stall, cry poverty, take hostages, make threats....give up, take money, and run for the next easy management target.


Stay Strong Brothers and Sisters..stay strong.. You are never alone and always appreciated.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Rubbish, pure, Rubbish spewed forward by the Almighty Fear Grenade tosser....

Boom! There goes another calculated tactic by F and H....gee whiz, I wonder what is next in their playbook...

.. Stall Stall, cry poverty, take hostages, make threats....give up, take money, and run for the next easy management target.


Stay Strong Brothers and Sisters..stay strong.. You are never alone and always appreciated.

Beginner....

 

[HiSpeedFlyer]

Beginner....

Is that all you got???? You disappoint me...

 

[BobbyBiplane]

Grow Some Balls.

Now, Crunch Time, is when you start believing the Words of Proven Management Liars? Are you kidding? Have you never once played a Game of Poker?

Remind me to Invite you to sit down the next time me and my buddies get together for a nice evening of Poker.

We would all love to take your money!

Freedom is NOT Free

"Grow some balls????"

Anyone who is willing to stand up to this form of intimidation certainly has BALLS.

Grow up ... the fact someone disagrees with you does not mean that they are spineless. The fact that you attempt this form of intimidation proves that YOU are the spineless one. If you had any backbone, you would be willing to accept different visions, values and views.

Bob

 

[B19 Flyer]

Is that all you got???? You disappoint me...

It's true, those guys are toast. They are nothing more than bargaining chips.

Do you think even for one second that the terminations would have happened if FltOps mgt didn't have all their ducks in a row?

Beginner....

 

[skyismyoffice]

I was told by a dependable and trustworthy source in CGF

Ain't no such thing...

beginning in July

At least we won't have to wait too long...

if the Union will not agree to negotiate with the current proposal the company has offered.

The Union would LOVE to negotiate - the problem is that the company wants it ALL their way.


I read on the IBT website that Teamsters National has instructed 1108 to not accept any agreements or to continue negotiations until the 70 pilots are retuned to employment status.

Darn it, looks like we got some company spies on the Board - Big surprise.

I have spoken with several of our pilots and everyone agrees that the pay raise is fair and the package is a great starting point.

You really have to get out of the office and talk to some real pilots. You would likely get a different response.

I don’t think so and I don’t think that is what the 70 pilots would want us to do.

No , you're probably right, they would rather us just forget about them and go on like nothing happened.

Our negotiating committee seems to be on their own agenda and has stopped listening to the pilot group.

I think they are right on the money, and the speak for ME.

Therefore, if they are not representing what we desire then why should we pay our dues.

I'm sure you haven't paid a cent...

Jackass!

.....

 

[hogbody]

Response, Part 1

Tarantis, Los716:
Welcome to Flightinfo, SCABS. I found this on another website. Pretty good response to the raw sewage you guys are spewing:

Dear Brothers and Sisters:

I am writing to you in response to Bob Tyler’s email message of June 20, 2008. Let me say at the outset that your Union has been and remains ready to enter into a partnership with a management group ready to restore Flight Options to its industry leading status as a provider of the highest quality customer service with loyal pilots dedicated to its success at the core of the operation. We remain ready to enter into such a partnership even though management now desperately resorts to the kind of threats put forth in Tyler ’s email. However, there is no such thing as a partnership of one. Despite your Union ’s best efforts, the current management has drug its feet in negotiations and obstructed our attempts to move forward toward a more cooperative, productive and profitable future.

Don’t let management’s threats affect your commitment and resolve to obtain the contract you deserve. Management’s latest email is nothing more than a “cookie-cutter” style letter written by management lawyers who use the same tactics over and over again wherever they go. These sorts of letters get recycled every time a management group wants to trick pilots into pressuring the Union ’s negotiators into careless bargaining. The only thing different here is that such letters are usually accompanied by management’s negotiating committee moving quickly toward a contract. Although management sent the letter, they aren’t bargaining like they want a contract. Let’s look past their threats and deal with facts.

The foundation for a more cooperative, productive and profitable future at Flight Options is a collective bargaining agreement (CBA) ratified by the Union ’s membership. However, a ratified CBA presupposes a successful resolution to the May 23, 2008 reduction in force ( RIF ). With 70 of our Brother and Sister pilots on the street out-of-seniority, we must all rally around them. We need to do it not only because they deserve our support, we need to do it to save our own jobs. If their seniority is of no value, what value is yours? If management can do it to them, management will believe they can do it to any of us. Besides, honorable men and women don’t leave their wounded behind on the battlefield! We are professional pilots! We are Union members! We remain ready to settle the RIF on the basis of reasonable terms that are consistent with the principles of seniority. Management’s last RIF proposal did not sufficiently address seniority considerations and, therefore, it was rejected. Your Union has worked diligently on the CBA and the RIF simultaneously. We remain committed to resolving both.

Management would like you to believe that their May 29th “Comprehensive Economic Proposal” is a “take it or leave it” proposition. It’s not. It’s management’s first proposal on a number of important issues. If the truth be told, it’s actually a partial outline and not a proposal that can be “accepted” or “rejected.” Much of their proposal is in “bullet point” form with critical details to be worked out through bargaining. Their proposal says as much. But, we didn’t wait for management to fill in the blanks; we made our own proposals in response. We have been waiting for management to respond to our written positions for weeks.

After your Union received management’s May 29th proposal our negotiators told them that, while the document is incomplete by its own terms, your Union recognized it as a good first move; one that provided a framework for reaching a CBA in an expedited fashion, so long as management was prepared to move beyond the “bullet point” stage to the hard work of bargaining over the details. To the extent management has set June 30 as an “acceptance deadline,” your Union committed to working as fast as possible on ironing out the details of an agreement. We have provided management with substantive feedback and actual proposals. Despite management’s failure to provide necessary information or respond to Union proposals before and since the May 29th management proposal, your Union ’s negotiating committee has repeatedly told management’s negotiators the following:

·Management’s salary proposal is a meaningful first step toward reaching an agreement on rates of pay, but it needs improvement. It contains structural problems and the rates of pay should be increased. Your Union has repeatedly stated we will make a salary proposal as soon as: A) we receive all of the data we have requested; and B) the parties agree on the major components of open working conditions. We are ready to negotiate over salary when A) and B) occur, but not before. The ball is in management’s court.

 

[hogbody]

Response, part 2

·Management’s “bullet point” on schedules (that’s all we’ve received from them) is a meaningful first step toward a complete agreement on a very important working condition. However, we need management to do the bargaining basics and give us the written language of their proposed 8&7 Schedule that they promised to provide on May 29th. We have already provided management with our proposed 7&7 Schedule language. After we receive the actual 8&7 Schedule language management proposes, we can and will negotiate over the percentages of pilots eligible to hold the 7&7 Schedule and the 8&7 Schedule. On June 20, 2008, management negotiators again promised to provide their 8&7 language. We will see if they make good on their latest promise or if they once again do nothing.
·With respect to paid time off, management proposes (in “bullet point” form only) what they describe as the status quo. If they were to have their way, you still wouldn’t have the right to take vacation when you want, but you could be forced to take vacation when management says to take it—or not at all, with or without advance notice. Not only is the status quo not acceptable for obvious reasons, but management’s negotiators didn’t even reduce their proposal to writing. Consequently, it’s still not clear what exactly they are proposing. By contrast, your Union ’s paid time off proposal is reasonable. We believe: A) pilots should have the right to take their vacation based on industry-standard seniority-based bidding procedures; and B) pilots require a reasonable number of paid sick days. Management has not responded to our proposal.
·Management’s insurance proposal (again in “bullet point” form only) permits management to shift an unlimited amount of cost increases to you even if benefits are reduced. By contrast, your Union ’s insurance proposal is reasonable. It includes controls on cost shifting, maintenance of existing benefits, and necessary benefit improvements. Management has not responded to our proposal.
·On the subject of Hours of Service/Duty and Rest, your Union proposes that the CBA address the problem of “crew rot” at FBOs and airports. As you well know from personal experience, when crews spend hours at an FBO or airport instead of at a hotel while waiting for scheduling to give them an assignment or for an aircraft to come out of maintenance, they become fatigued. This increases fatigue calls, which in turn reduces crew availability. The CBA should address this fact in a mutually acceptable manner. Flight and duty time limitation disputes should be resolved on an industry-standard basis. Management has not responded to our proposal.
·The scope/merger/acquisition provisions in the CBA must be industry-standard. These are our job security protections. The first and second day of scope/merger/acquisition negotiations just took place on June 19-20; despite the fact your Union has been requesting management to begin negotiations over these issues for 5 months. There is more work to be done in this area before an agreement is reached.
·The CBA should contain real labor-management partnership/joint committee structures. In the fractional industry, pilots are the key to owner retention and sales growth. Your Union has an open, respectful and progressive relationship with another company in the fractional industry. It yields tangible benefits for both that company’s management and its pilots. The same kind of relationship is possible at Flight Options so long as this company’s management has a vision of labor-management relations that is not trapped in outmoded, traditional approaches that create conflicts rather than solutions. Your Union ’s proposal is reasonable.
·Finally, there are miscellaneous provisions contained in various, substantially resolved contract sections that must be closed in order to reach a complete CBA. Your Union has modified its position on nearly every section of the proposed CBA in order to facilitate a prompt resolution. Management has not seen fit to respond to even half of them.

It’s easy to make threats about deadlines and dire consequences like those contained in Tyler ’s email. But if management really wanted an agreement quickly they wouldn’t fail to give timely responses to Union proposals on key sections of the contract or refuse to provide requested information in a timely manner.

Tyler’s email says the Union “rejected” management’s proposal to get a contract in 100 days. Nothing could be farther from the truth. You may recall we tried for more than a year to get management to meet with us on a more frequent schedule. After they finally expressed an interest in accelerating the pace of bargaining about the time we requested the services of the National Mediation Board (NMB), we told management we stood ready to make an agreement in 100 days or less. The parties have met during 7 weeks out of the past 100 days. But just meeting won’t get it done. What gets included in the contract matters most! We’ve consistently made proposals that move us toward a complete CBA. Management has not. Going forward, the open question is whether management’s negotiating team will show the flexibility and dedication to the process necessary to close the deal.

Tyler’s email says management’s offered to “bargain” in Atlanta over last weekend, continuing on through Wednesday of this past week. We believed our time would be better spent over the weekend and early this past week preparing for upcoming bargaining sessions rather than remaining in Atlanta since, while we were there, management had wasted our time correcting punctuation in their previous proposals instead of responsibly addressing the outstanding important issues before them. This was particularly true since we had been advised that management’s lead negotiator had also scheduled contract negotiations on behalf of another client and would need to split his time between two sets of negotiations simultaneously. Even with his full attention devoted to Flight Options all week in Atlanta , management’s committee was unable to respond to even half of your Union ’s proposals. A part-time negotiation with management’s committee doesn’t cut it for us.

As if to add insult to injury, management also invited your negotiators to go out to dinner with their bargaining committee Saturday night in Atlanta for a purely social evening and explicitly said no discussions about bargaining would take place. They made this gesture with the knowledge that 70 of your terminated Brothers and Sisters are trying to figure out how they are going to pay their bills. After careful consideration, your Union Negotiating Committee rejected management’s invitations. Instead, we spoke with terminated pilots and their families and prepared for upcoming negotiations with the mediator. When the RIF and the CBA are resolved, we would be happy to buy dinner for those people on the management side of the table who take the lead in restoring a sense of fairness and respect for pilots at Flight Options.

Despite our decision to decline management’s request, there was no reason for management’s committee to waste the time its lead negotiator said he had available. Since he was available full time over last weekend and part-time Monday through Wednesday, we suggested management’s negotiators remain in Atlanta and use the time “productively” (for example, working on language in response to Union proposals on Insurance, Retirement, Vacation, PTO, Schedules, Hours of Service and the RIF). Regrettably, they chose not to do so and the senior managers on their bargaining committee returned to Cleveland Friday afternoon.

Against this backdrop, why did this management publicize its salary proposal now? It couldn’t be more obvious. Management did so for the purpose of undermining our solidarity. They want you to forget your fallen Brothers and Sisters and to sell them out for “30 pieces of silver.” They want to create desperation within our ranks and cause you to demand that your Union accept management’s May 29th proposal without even negotiating over it. This must not be allowed to happen. The membership must stay the course and support the Union 100%. Don’t fall victim to this ploy that is designed to benefit someone, but that someone is definitely not you. Let’s take a closer look at what management says about its own salary proposal and related issues:

“A $9M wage package that raises the average pilot's pay by 30%.” -- Bob Tyler, June 30, 2008




(continued)

 

[hogbody]

Response, Part 3

FACT: Based on preliminary data supplied by management to your Union in Atlanta, the total annual wage increase management is offering for the entire pilot group, not including management pilots, or the 70 pilots who are currently terminated, or overtime, bonuses or the premiums paid to check airmen and instructors, is, indeed, $9M. And it’s true that this $9M represents an average increase of approximately 30% when spread over the entire remaining line pilot group. However, while some line pilots would receive more, some would only receive a raise of between 1 and 2%! Nonetheless, if your Union were to accept management’s offer, all Flight Options line pilots would remain the lowest paid pilots by a significant margin among our peers at the major carriers in the fractional industry. Take a look at the attached charts to see how management’s first proposal compares to the other “big three” in the industry. (In order to compare “apples to apples,” these charts show a pilot’s base daily rate, based on seat and longevity, regardless of the number of days in a tour.)

“Slide to parity and pay by aircraft type, seat, and longevity would be eliminated. Pay would be based solely on Company longevity and seat.” -- Bob Tyler, June 20, 2008

FACT: Management made it quite clear when they presented their “Comprehensive Economic Proposal” to us that when a First Officer upgrades to Captain for the first time, he or she would, in fact, revert to first year Captain pay, regardless of the length of company longevity. When asked if management knew of any other contracts that had a similar structure, the answer we received was “No.”

“A gain share plan that would allow individual pilots to receive bonuses of up to $18K a year for productivity, fuel and reliability if the Company exceeds its financial plan.” – Bob Tyler, June 20, 2008.

FACT: Management has been unwilling to provide your Union with any details of their so-called “gain share plan,” even though they promised to provide it on May 29th. Call us cautious, but we don’t accept proposals that aren’t reduced to writing. We’re still waiting.

“A contract duration of 5 years.” -- Bob Tyler, June 20, 2008

FACT: Your Union told management that that duration of the CBA must be determined by economic considerations related to pay rates and insurance considerations. If the money is right and the insurance benefit protections are there in each year of the contract, your Union is open to a contract that exceeds 3 years in duration.

“The deadline for acceptance by the negotiating committee is June 30, 2008 with pilot ratification completed by July 31, 2008.”-- Bob Tyler, June 20, 2008

FACT: Management’s negotiating committee has known all along that their June 30/July 31 set of deadlines was unrealistic due to: 1) their continuous foot-dragging and lack of responsiveness to Union proposals and information requests; and 2) the very real time frame required for a contract to be ratified by the membership, e.g., the time required to prepare, mail and receive ballots, the time required for pilots to carefully review the tentative agreement, the time required for “road shows” so your negotiators can meet with as many of you as possible to explain the contract in detail, the time required to return the ballots for counting, and, finally, the time required to count and certify the results. If management pulls their offer off the table after June 30, the anger of the pilot group will be focused on management and management alone. Your Union is ready to bargaining towards getting a contract quickly. Management just needs to instruct its negotiators to do the same. It’s as simple as that.
Here is a final thought. Tyler’s June 20th email is longer than all the commentary about Vacation, PTO, Insurance, Retirement, Gain Share, and Hours of Service provisions contained in management’s May 29th “Comprehensive Economic Proposal.” We strongly suggest management focus as much attention on the details of the contract as they did on the propaganda contained in Tyler ’s email. If that happens, we will likely reach an agreement quickly on an entire CBA that fits everyone’s needs.

Your Union and management can restore Flight Options to its former industry-leader status and position the company for future growth and expansion. It will take a resolution to the RIF . It will take a ratified CBA. It will take a partnership. The Union is ready. We just need a management partner with the vision and ability to do the same.

Fraternally,

Capt. Mat Slinghoff, Chairman
Flight Options Pilots’ Master Executive Council

 

[William Holiday]

You Can Tell................

B-19 Is posting all over the place, with increaseing frequency, Trying his best to stop a loaded freight train ready to crash through the front door of corporate.

Your spindley arms are no match for the weight and wrath bearing down upon you at this very moment.

If I were you, thank GOD I'm not, and I had any real interest in this company. I would get very serious, very soon. The clock is ticking........

Be careful of " What YOU ask for "

It's only money...and it's just business.

 

[B19 Flyer]

B-19 Is posting all over the place, with increaseing frequency, Trying his best to stop a loaded freight train ready to crash through the front door of corporate.

Your spindley arms are no match for the weight and wrath bearing down upon you at this very moment.

If I were you, thank GOD I'm not, and I had any real interest in this company. I would get very serious, very soon. The clock is ticking........

Be careful of " What YOU ask for "

It's only money...and it's just business.

It ain't coming down on me, or anybody else for that matter except those employees at Flight Options that didn't want the union in the first place. Those poor folks are nothing more than innocent bystanders caught up in over 2 years of union turmoil.

It's so typical to want to protect the 70, but ignore the other 100 plus non-pilot employees. Yes, they are nothing more than bargaining chips.

Everything I've said to date has come true. Turmoil, disruptions to service, a completely stagnant company with no growth, no pay or benefit increases and an arrogant MEC that thinks Flight Options has the same deep pockets as NJ.

I can't quite say "I told you so" yet, but it's coming closer every day. Right now there are 70 pilots that are paying the price, just like I did. It sucks and I feel for those guys, but the union is on the property and it is what it is. In the end, those 70 will probably be better off because they'll have a head start on the job searches over the rest of you.

 

[Semore Butts]

I would say "Well Said" Mat

But I know you are not trying to sway anybody with a bunch of B.S..

You are simply staing facts about the nagotiations progress.

As with Netjets managment, Flops managment is slizzering down the same path of delay delay delay.

I still don't understand why someone would do that to their fellow man for no good reason.

It's good to see you all are staying the course.

Take care..

 

[skyismyoffice]

It's so typical to want to protect the 70, but ignore the other 100 plus non-pilot employees.

The 1108 doesn't represent those employees. What's your point??