Standby Duty at Flex

[gutshotdraw]

Unless there is a contract issue here I don't think you are right. At least 135 anyway. The only thing I am not clear on in your example is what time the crew came off duty the flight previous.

If they came off duty at 1930 the night previous, then they are pefectly legal to accept 135 revenue legs. You have 10.5 hours of rest. That is assuming a 0600 phone call.

If they came off duty at 2030, then you are right they would be illegal for 135 revenue legs. You only have 9.5 hours rest.

I am not too familiar with 91K, but under 135 all the regulations spevify is that you have 10 hours of rest preceeding any duty time leading to a 135 flight. 135 regs do not address nor do they care what you were briefed for.

Even if they have have 10 hours off, a briefed showtime is the END of the "prospective rest" period in order to comply with the so-called "lookback" rule. I know many 135 companies violate prospective rest because their POI's give them lattitude. When an incident finally occurs where a company violated prospective rest and fatigue is listed as contributing factor, the Administrative Law Judge will not be as lenient in the interpretation.

 

[brokeflyer]

Unless there is a contract issue here I don't think you are right. At least 135 anyway. The only thing I am not clear on in your example is what time the crew came off duty the flight previous.

If they came off duty at 1930 the night previous, then they are pefectly legal to accept 135 revenue legs. You have 10.5 hours of rest. That is assuming a 0600 phone call.

If they came off duty at 2030, then you are right they would be illegal for 135 revenue legs. You only have 9.5 hours rest.

I am not too familiar with 91K, but under 135 all the regulations spevify is that you have 10 hours of rest preceeding any duty time leading to a 135 flight. 135 regs do not address nor do they care what you were briefed for.

It's not a contract thing, it's a 91k thing. 91k rest rules are what 135 "should've" been. 135 rules aren't enforced properly and since the rest requirements were fixed with 91k and are more restrictive, we have to comply with 91k rules.

kind nice after being boned for so many years by the dumb 135 rest rules.

 

[o2bflyn]

Even if they have have 10 hours off, a briefed showtime is the END of the "prospective rest" period in order to comply with the so-called "lookback" rule. I know many 135 companies violate prospective rest because their POI's give them lattitude. When an incident finally occurs where a company violated prospective rest and fatigue is listed as contributing factor, the Administrative Law Judge will not be as lenient in the interpretation.

No...the ACTUAL showtime is where the lookback starts to see if you have had legal rest. No where in the regs does it address what you are briefed for. All the FAA cares about is that you have had 10 consecutive rest hours leading up to a duty assignment.

 

[o2bflyn]

It's not a contract thing, it's a 91k thing. 91k rest rules are what 135 "should've" been. 135 rules aren't enforced properly and since the rest requirements were fixed with 91k and are more restrictive, we have to comply with 91k rules.

kind nice after being boned for so many years by the dumb 135 rest rules.

Ah ha....that explains it. I thought they were saying it was a 135 rest reg issue.....I am not that familiar with 91K. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[o2bflyn]

This is for all the non-NJA pilots (since I know their rules) would you help me out?
You all answer a post with a statement "my company" then proceed to talk about answering or not answering the phone. That's all fine since your passing your saying what you'd do or not do. I ask these questions to ya: why don't you post what company you work for? If you won't list your company then do you have a contract that explains your rest policy? What would you do if you answer the phone and say 'yes' to working, but your fellow crew member doesn't? If you answer the phone at 9.5 hrs. of rest and it's the company; would you tell them to reset your rest period since they interrupted your rest period?
I'd like to hear not for sake of argument, but I am truly curious.

1. I think we should leave company names out of it just for politics sake. No contract though (135 operator)

2.I say yes and other guy says no.....we don't fly.

3. Tell company to reset rest. Not really sure how the reg reads, but my personal answer is no I would not tell them to reset my rest. not for one phone call, but if it turns into a conversation or several phone calls then yes.

 

[brokeflyer]

Ah ha....that explains it. I thought they were saying it was a 135 rest reg issue.....I am not that familiar with 91K. Sorry for the confusion.

If you dive into 135 it is basicly the same thing. You are supposed to be either ON duty or OFF duty. Sitting at home waiting for the phone to ring is considered ON duty because you able to be called as opposed to be OFF anbd they can't call you.

But it's written poorly and the FAA don't enforce it because all the managers cry about it.

So they fixed it with 91k, which says you have to be told what time to report for your next duty period BEFORE you go off for the night. And it cannot be changed.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner

 

[BeeDubya]

So they fixed it with 91k, which says you have to be told what time to report for your next duty period BEFORE you go off for the night. And it cannot be changed.

From 91.1057 (in Subpart K):


"Reserve status means that status in which a flight crewmember, by arrangement with the program manager: Holds himself or herself fit to fly to the extent that this is within the control of the flight crewmember; remains within a reasonable response time of the aircraft as agreed between the flight crewmember and the program manager; and maintains a ready means whereby the flight crewmember may be contacted by the program manager. Reserve status is not part of any duty period or rest period.

Rest period means a period of time required pursuant to this subpart that is free of all responsibility for work or duty prior to the commencement of, or following completion of, a duty period, and during which the flight crewmember or flight attendant cannot be required to receive contact from the program manager. A rest period does not include any time during which the program manager imposes on a flight crewmember or flight attendant any duty or restraint, including any actual work or present responsibility for work should the occasion arise.
Standby means that portion of a duty period during which a flight crewmember is subject to the control of the program manager and holds himself or herself in a condition of readiness to undertake a flight. Standby is not part of any rest period."

These are the applicable definitions. What seems to be relevant is whether or not the pilot is required (by imposition by the program manager) to be available for actual work or present responsibility for work, shoudl the occasion arise. It is from these definitions that we get the "prospective rest" concept.

However, I do not read these to prohibit a change in duty start time, as long as the minimum rest requirements are met and that the change is voluntary: not imposed by the program manager. In other words, if the operator requires the pilot to answer the phone and accept a change in duty assignment, then it is not voluntary and not compliant with the 91.1057 requirements, because the pilot was responsible for work if the occasion arose. If there is no expectation for availablity, then I believe changes to the brief (acceptable to the crew and after compliant rest) would be compliant with 91.1057.

By interpretive letter, any restraint placed on the crewmember (such as a requirement to answer the phone) cannot be considered a "Rest Period."

 

[o2bflyn]

Gutshot....I see where what you are saying applies to 91K, but It does not apply to 135. After 10 hours of rest, where you are not responsible for any work related duties, you are back "on-call" and available for flight duty. Regardless of when you briefed for the next day. That being said, if you were told you had a 1400 show and you prepared your sleep for that and then the call at 0800 for a trip. I can see where you can say you are unfit to fly due to fatigue because you had stayed up late in preparation for your late show, but they are legal to call and you are legal to accept.


BeeDub....thanks for posting the reg. I agree with what you are saying. I have never worked for a company that actually require you to answer your phone during rest periods. I am in no way stating that you should answer your phone during a rest period, but I am saying that if you are beyond your 10 hours of rest and are "on call" then you should answer. I see that there can be arguements either way, but those are my personal feelings on the issue.

 

[frac pilot]

Don't cloud the issue - your either in rest or out of rest.

When your in rest, you have no obligation to the company...phone, pager, horn, etc.

Companies are allowed one contact during a rest period without considering it an interuption. Answer, don't answer - it's up to you.

Regardless of what your company assigns (hotel duty, airport standby, flight asignment, etc.) it can't be considered rest.

You have to have 10 hrs, uninterupted rest within a 24 hr period.

Yes, the company can shorten or lengthen any rest period, as long as the above criteria is met. Obviously, 2-way communication is required to do either. Hence, the original question...Do I have to answer the phone?

Answer it, don't answer it - it's up to you.

 

[o2bflyn]

Don't cloud the issue - your either in rest or out of rest.

When your in rest, you have no obligation to the company...phone, pager, horn, etc.

Companies are allowed one contact during a rest period without considering it an interuption. Answer, don't answer - it's up to you.

Regardless of what your company assigns (hotel duty, airport standby, flight asignment, etc.) it can't be considered rest.

You have to have 10 hrs, uninterupted rest within a 24 hr period.

Yes, the company can shorten or lengthen any rest period, as long as the above criteria is met. Obviously, 2-way communication is required to do either. Hence, the original question...Do I have to answer the phone?

Answer it, don't answer it - it's up to you.

That about sums it up...well said.

 

[brokeflyer]

Gutshot....I see where what you are saying applies to 91K, but It does not apply to 135.way

They don't know the night before if ill be flying 135 or 91k leg.

They have to assume, correctly, the more restrictive regulation.

You are either on duty or off duty. Waiting for them to call means you are ON duty. Like I said, 135 was supposed to be like this but it really got messed up. That is why you have guys at charter outfits sitting at home waiting for the phone to ring. You are off duty until we call you.

I can remember many times getting the kid off to school, paying babysitter to watch the baby with me cause my wife had to work because they paid crap. Then lying down at 11pm for bed after I paid out $30 for that sitter only to have work call at 1am telling me I have a 14 hour duty day. There is no way that should be legal.

So they fixed it with part 91k. We are either on duty or off duty. They give us 18 hours off, then we are off for 18 hours and that's that. Pager will be turned on at showtime and EVERYONE is then in compliance with the regs.

Some fractionals found 91k too restrictive having to pre-brief crews to get their beauty sleep not realizing it's a safety issue so they just stay part 135 all the way.

 

[gutshotdraw]

They don't know the night before if ill be flying 135 or 91k leg.

They have to assume, correctly, the more restrictive regulation.

Exactamundo

 

[Mike Jenvey]

Just wait until (if? when?) the FAA finally moves to safer Flight Time Limitations (FTLs). Welcome to EU-Ops Subpart Q!!

Across in Europe, we had a big change to FTLs at the end of last year, but this was reliant on a scientific study to confirm or modify some aspects of the FTLs. This doesn't look like good news for some airlines, although there is also the requirement to introduce a "Fatigue Risk Management System" to help mitigate some of the FTL issues.

The general principle of the new FTLs is that the crew member's rest is protected. We used to have similar examples of finish duty at say 1500 local..... & despite a booked show at say 0900 local the next day, after your legal rest, kerbang, the 'phone could go at 0200 local - you had had your "legal" rest, new briefing.......

Now, change of briefing = new minimum rest period (e.g. 10 hrs) prior to the new show time. So, lots of flexibility moved away from the schedulers, so now we sometimes get a 3 - 4 hr show prior to the ETD, in case the plan changes or pax want to go earlier = all legal, as your duty time is running.

 

[BeeDubya]

BeeDub....thanks for posting the reg. I agree with what you are saying. I have never worked for a company that actually require you to answer your phone during rest periods. I am in no way stating that you should answer your phone during a rest period, but I am saying that if you are beyond your 10 hours of rest and are "on call" then you should answer. I see that there can be arguements either way, but those are my personal feelings on the issue.

This is where you have to be careful. From 135.263:
"(b) No certificate holder may assign any flight crewmember to any duty with the certificate holder during any required rest period."

It would seem from this that if you are "on call" -- that there is an expectation that you are available for work should the occasion arise -- then you are no longer in rest. If that's the case, then you could no longer be considered in rest after your required 10 hours, thereby limiting your available duty time. In fact, I would argue that if you are "on call" you are "on duty" and would be rquired to answer.

Also, by FAA interpretation, a short phone call does not necessarily interrupt rest, although it does vis-a-vis some CBAs.

 

[Av8tor]

Flexjet is the only Frac that has a floating rest. I will never understand this. WHY?

 

[LizardEyes]

They can

Because they can and the pilots don't stop them.

 

[bluepost]

This in no different then when the FAA "clarified" the rest rules on reserve....guys use to sit around "rested" until they were called, now they have a strict time window.

The intent of the rules is clear, they want you to be able to plan your rest....also remember....you'll be working 14 hours....that is a crazy amount of time to "work". That is why they want you as rested as possible (not having been up for 7 hours prior to duty start) before your duty period.

Also just because your not falling asleep doesn't mean your not tired or you don't have a serious degrad in capabilities.

 

[Sctt@NJA]

NetJets does not use 91k rest and duty rules. We use part 135 rest and duty rules slightly modified by practice and policy to be clearer and more conservative than the regs.

As a NetJet pilot I can say that we aren't always the best source of information on regs. We know how we do it, but seperating what is law vs. what is NetJets policy can get pretty fuzzy for most of us.

 

[gunfyter]

This becomes the real question, legality, and intrinsically tied to that (by FAA interpretive letter) is what the company expectation of the pilots is. If the pilot can answer or not answer at his/her choosing, it is different than if the pilot is expected to answer (perform duty) if the opportunity arise.

Exactly!

Managements don't like this and there was a 135 ARC going on where they are trying to come up with another plan...

Have seen some of the proposals but not heard what the status is....

 

[gunfyter]

Okay, Okay....let's recap.

Part 91K and Part 135 stipulate that, when you COMPLETE a duty assignment, you must have had 10 hours of uninterrupted, scheduled rest within the past 24 hours (the "lookback" rule).

Let's look at an example. If you dutied off at 8 PM the night before and you are scheduled for a noon show the next day, the company can call you at 0601 to show BUT ONLY TO CONDUCT A PART 91 FERRY OR MAINTENANCE LEG. You CANNOT fly a "program" (91K or 135) leg if you report prior to the previously scheduled report time until you have gone BACK into rest for at least 10 hours. The minute you go off the night before, your scheduled report time becomes the earliest possible show time for a revenue leg. The company can revise it to a later report but not an earlier one.

Now, here's where it gets interesting and subject to some interpretation. Netjets (and any other fractional for that matter) is a Part 91K and Part 135 company. When you are given a scheduled report time, that is so the company can comply with the lookback rule. That means your rest period for program flights actually begins 10 hours PRIOR to your scheduled report time. You were released from duty at 8 PM and scheduled for a noon show that means you have 16 hours free from duty but the REST period actually began at 2 AM. And my FOM states the company cannot contact me during a rest period for the purpose of company operations.

There are many that believe you have to be available at 0601 and they ARE willing to answer the phone. But even our management recognizes that is strictly to perform Part 91 flights. I'm not trying to place undue burdens on my employer but I don't believe you can be available for duty AND be in rest at the same time. Therefore, I choose not to answer the phone until the designated show time (okay, maybe 10 minutes early).

This is how most of our pilots operate and we actually see very little FBO show or FBO standby. But guess what, even if they chose to have us do FBO show, I figure that's their time and they can utilize my available duty as they see fit. The time free from duty is mine to do with as I see fit.

All correct.

 

[gunfyter]

March 14, 1991
Mr. Thomas T. Gasta
Dear Mr. Gasta:
Thank you for your letter of September 13, 1990, regarding "standby and reserve duty." We apologize for the delay in responding to you.

You advise that you work as a pilot for an on-demand Part 135 charter company. Your question deals with the flight and duty time limitations outlined in Part 135. You ask what the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) considers to be duty or "required rest" when dealing with a flight crewmember who is performing a "standby" or "reserve" function for the air carrier.
The facts as we understand them are that at 600 a.m. you called the certificate holder to obtain your flight assignments for that day. You were told that as of 600 a.m. there were no flights to assign to you, but you were instructed to await immediate flight assignment by remaining at the hotel for contact by the certificate holder or, if not in your room at the hotel, to call the certificate holder every hour without fail to ascertain if a flight assignment materialized. We infer that the purpose of this procedure was to place you in the status of being immediately available for flight assignment if the occasion arose.

Your specific question is whether the period from 600 a.m. to 600 p.m. Tuesday, in the fact situation described in your letter, qualifies as a rest period under FAR Sec. 135.263(b) and Sec. 135.263(d). We shall discuss rest requirements as applied to standby/reserve principles generally and then answer your specific question.

FAR Sec. 135.263(b) reads:
(b) No certificate holder may assign any flight crewmember to any duty with the certificate holder during any required rest period.
FAR Sec. 135.263(d) reads:
(d) Each assignment under paragraph (b) of this section must provide for at least 10 consecutive hours of rest during the 24 hour period that precedes the planned completion time of the assignment.
The FAA has consistently interpreted duty in FAR Sec. 135.263(b) and other similar regulations to mean either actual work for the air carrier, or present responsibility for work should the occasion arise. In addition, the period of relief from all duty must be prospective and free from all restraint to qualify as rest under that rule. When a flight crewmember is required to hold himself available for immediate assignment to flight duty by standing by the telephone (or via other communicative device, e.g., beeper), it constitutes restraint which precludes counting such time as a required rest period. Thus, under Sec. 135.263(b), an air carrier is prohibited from requiring a flight crewmember to standby the telephone for immediate availability during a required rest period.

The answer to your question is that the period 600 a.m. to 600 p.m. Tuesday does not qualify as a rest period required by FAR Sec. 135.263(b) because you were required to standby the telephone and keep yourself available for immediate assignment to flight duty. As such, that period constitutes a present responsibility for work should the occasion arise, and therefore is duty.

We feel constrained to comment that apparently the air carrier did not consider the 600 a.m. to 600 p.m. period as a required rest period because the air carrier assigned you to a required rest period of 1000 p.m. Tuesday to 800 a.m. Wednesday for the 800 a.m. Wednesday flight. It was only after the air carrier changed the schedule by assigning you the Miami-Houston and subsequent flight that the air carrier retroactively treated the 600 a.m. to 600 p.m. Tuesday period as a required rest period.

We also note that you raise a point on page 2 of your letter regarding the requirement for scheduled operators to relieve a flight crewmember engaged in scheduled air transportation from all further duty for at least 24 consecutive hours in any 7 consecutive days (FAR Sec. 135.265(d)). At this time, without the specific facts being available to us, all we can say is that you have raised a valid question. If you want to give us the precise facts concerning what was required of the flight crewmember, we will be glad to give you an interpretation.

We trust that we have satisfactorily answered your questions.

This response has been coordinated with the Air Transportation Division of the Flight Standards Service.

Sincerely,
Donald P. Byrne
Assistant Chief Counsel
Regulations and Enforcement Division
cc:AGC-220/200

 

[gunfyter]

United States Court of Appeals
For the First Circuit


No. 99-1888

AVIATORS FOR SAFE AND FAIRER REGULATION, INC.,

Petitioner,

v.

FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION,

Respondent.


ON PETITION FOR REVIEW OF AN ORDER OF
THE FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION
http://www.law.emory.edu/1circuit/au...-1888.01a.html​

 

[gunfyter]

We have been through this before...

Blasts from the past
Duty and Rest:

Response Time


Legal to Start legal to Finish?

Flexjet info...

 

[gutshotdraw]

Good links Gun. And Sctt@NJA is partly right in that Netjets is one of the first (if not THE first and still relatively few) on-demand/fractional operators to CORRECTLY apply rest period regulations.

 

[BeeDubya]

gunfyter,

You found the letter I was thinking of! :beer:

 

[gunfyter]

Gutshot,

Seems like we have to go through this topic every 14 months or so.... .

BW...

All you have to do is google "Tom Gasta Duty Rest"

 

[Club ORD FO]

as far as our company is concerned, the official policy is we dont HAVE to answer our phones, but they ask us to "be reasonable," or at least thats how i think they word it. Not much in written in the FOM about it, it would be nice to have an official policy in a company manual to refer to.

 

[TurboHonda]

Gunfyter,

Excellant info. The law is the law. Companys that try to circumvent it, POIs that help them, and enabling pilots that let them is what brings unions on the property.

 

[BeeDubya]

BW...

All you have to do is google "Tom Gasta Duty Rest"

Honestly, I couldn't remember if it was the Gasta Letter I was looking for or one of the others. I've got a bunch of them on my hard drive and just hadn't taken the time to find the one I wanted.