Standby Duty at Flex

[doh]

I have yet to be fatigued in fracland. 10 hours is not conducive to fatigue. 8 hours reduced every other night was killing me. 10 hours is heaven on a stick!

 

[brokeflyer]

well at least this thread quit making sence.....I'd hate to see it leave a bad mark on flightinfo......

 

[BeeDubya]

If the practice is legal by the regs or contract,

This becomes the real question, legality, and intrinsically tied to that (by FAA interpretive letter) is what the company expectation of the pilots is. If the pilot can answer or not answer at his/her choosing, it is different than if the pilot is expected to answer (perform duty) if the opportunity arise.

 

[brokeflyer]

nvrmind

 

[CA1900]

CA1900 summed it up. From his post his real world schedule was 0600 show for a 0830 flight. 2.5 hours to get ready at the airport! I show up at 0730 for a 0830 flight.

Did you read the rest of my message? My duty started at 0600, and that didn't change. The company wanted me rested and available in case something changed in the morning. It didn't, so I didn't leave the hotel 'til 7am for my 8:30 flight.

If you answer your phone and stop playing games with management then you get to stay at the hotel in comfort.

My duty period started a few minutes ago, yet I don't leave the comfortable hotel for two more hours. I'm on duty if they need me, and I'm properly rested for a duty period that began at 10am.

If you get all upity about calls during rest (even though it's been 18 hours of rest and it's 2 in the afternoon) ...

So when do you sleep during that up-to-18 hours of rest, knowing that you might be going to work (for up to 14 hours), beginning anywhere from 6am to 2pm?

Crash after crash has been caused by fatigued pilots. Making sure you're properly rested isn't "getting all uppity" -- it's doing the right thing.

 

[o2bflyn]

This becomes the real question, legality, and intrinsically tied to that (by FAA interpretive letter) is what the company expectation of the pilots is. If the pilot can answer or not answer at his/her choosing, it is different than if the pilot is expected to answer (perform duty) if the opportunity arise.

I see your point. I would venture to say that all companies expect their pilots to answer their phones if the are not in their mandated rest periods (faa or otherwise). If the phone rings within your 10 hour rest period, don't answer it if you don't want to. That is your legal right, but at 10 hours and 1 minute you should be answering it. It is professionalism people plain and simple. If you are not able to fly when they call tell them that, but don't just not answer the phone.

These companies hired professionals, not a 16 year olds flipping hamburgers. We all know the regs, we all knew the expectations....do the work!

The more we fly, the more the business can grow, the more we can get or "brothers/sisters" back into the cockpit.

Look beyond yourselves at the big picture.

 

[o2bflyn]

Why does your company think you need to be at the airport to be on duty? Why not come on duty at 9am at the hotel, with a 2pm show at the airport for a 3pm flight?

If I have a 3pm show I stay up as late as possible, sleep as late as possible till 10 or 11am, to be ready for a 14 hour day starting at 2pm. That is my job and my duty to the company.

So maybe these guys you are asking to "man up" and to do their jobs, are doing exactly that.....being ready for a 14 hour day starting at 3pm.

I would say if your going to bed at 10pm the night before a 2pm show, that YOU are the one that should man up and do your job and properly plan your rest for what is scheduled, and not what you are hoping will happen.

1. The benefit of having a crew at the FBO on duty is time. You have cut at least an hour off the lead time by sitting "hot standby."

2. Don't cloud yourself with the issue. The issue is answering the phone. If you want to tell them you ae fatigues because you were planning on a later show....fine. no one is saying you shouldn't. you SHOULD answer the phone. It takes two minutes and I am sure you can get your pretty head back to sleep if you need to.

 

[brokeflyer]

pager OFF until show time. 10 hours aint got anything to do with it anymore. That's just the minimum time off they can give you.

If i am given 12 hours OFF and my phone rings at 10.2 hours, I am required NOT to answer it.

 

[o2bflyn]

pager OFF until show time. 10 hours aint got anything to do with it anymore. That's just the minimum time off they can give you.

If i am given 12 hours OFF and my phone rings at 10.2 hours, I am required NOT to answer it.

Atta boy...look out for number one.

* now I remeber why I left this forum for a while.*

 

[brokeflyer]

Atta boy...look out for number one.

* now I remeber why I left this forum for a while.*

I hear that. im about ready to leave myself. This is getting outta hand.

 

[BeeDubya]

I see your point. I would venture to say that all companies expect their pilots to answer their phones if the are not in their mandated rest periods (faa or otherwise). If the phone rings within your 10 hour rest period, don't answer it if you don't want to. That is your legal right, but at 10 hours and 1 minute you should be answering it. It is professionalism people plain and simple. If you are not able to fly when they call tell them that, but don't just not answer the phone.

This is where the legal questions arise. I'll have to find (again) the FAA's interpretive letter, but if a pilot is expected to be available for duty if the occasion arises, then that pilot is not in rest. The pilot could still be in rest if answering the phone and performing company-directed duty is discretionary, then that time could be considered rest. (Also by FAA interpretative letters, a single, short phone call does not break rest, although it violates some CBAs.)

The issue is not so much about whether the pilot answer the phone at 10+01, but if the phone doesn't right at 10 hours and the next flight begins 14+00 after duty end the night before. If the pilot was expected to be availabel for duty at 10+01, then how much duty remains? From what I've seen of the interpretive letters, many 135 companies do not apply rest properly, nor do many POIs (who do not make regulatory interpretations themselves).

 

[gutshotdraw]

Okay, Okay....let's recap.

Part 91K and Part 135 stipulate that, when you COMPLETE a duty assignment, you must have had 10 hours of uninterrupted, scheduled rest within the past 24 hours (the "lookback" rule).

Let's look at an example. If you dutied off at 8 PM the night before and you are scheduled for a noon show the next day, the company can call you at 0601 to show BUT ONLY TO CONDUCT A PART 91 FERRY OR MAINTENANCE LEG. You CANNOT fly a "program" (91K or 135) leg if you report prior to the previously scheduled report time until you have gone BACK into rest for at least 10 hours. The minute you go off the night before, your scheduled report time becomes the earliest possible show time for a revenue leg. The company can revise it to a later report but not an earlier one.

Now, here's where it gets interesting and subject to some interpretation. Netjets (and any other fractional for that matter) is a Part 91K and Part 135 company. When you are given a scheduled report time, that is so the company can comply with the lookback rule. That means your rest period for program flights actually begins 10 hours PRIOR to your scheduled report time. You were released from duty at 8 PM and scheduled for a noon show that means you have 16 hours free from duty but the REST period actually began at 2 AM. And my FOM states the company cannot contact me during a rest period for the purpose of company operations.

There are many that believe you have to be available at 0601 and they ARE willing to answer the phone. But even our management recognizes that is strictly to perform Part 91 flights. I'm not trying to place undue burdens on my employer but I don't believe you can be available for duty AND be in rest at the same time. Therefore, I choose not to answer the phone until the designated show time (okay, maybe 10 minutes early).

This is how most of our pilots operate and we actually see very little FBO show or FBO standby. But guess what, even if they chose to have us do FBO show, I figure that's their time and they can utilize my available duty as they see fit. The time free from duty is mine to do with as I see fit.

 

[imacdog]

I see your point. I would venture to say that all companies expect their pilots to answer their phones if the are not in their mandated rest periods (faa or otherwise). If the phone rings within your 10 hour rest period, don't answer it if you don't want to. That is your legal right, but at 10 hours and 1 minute you should be answering it. It is professionalism people plain and simple. If you are not able to fly when they call tell them that, but don't just not answer the phone.

These companies hired professionals, not a 16 year olds flipping hamburgers. We all know the regs, we all knew the expectations....do the work!

The more we fly, the more the business can grow, the more we can get or "brothers/sisters" back into the cockpit.

Look beyond yourselves at the big picture.

It's amazing how people like you are so willing to give up the improvements in safety that others have worked so hard to achieve.

 

[glasspilot]

Me sitting in an FBO with no plane and no FO for hours and hours simply to force me to be "on duty" so I am required to answer the phone is NOT an improvement.

If it is then stop trying to improve my life. I don't recall asking for your assistance.

 

[bluepost]

1. The benefit of having a crew at the FBO on duty is time. You have cut at least an hour off the lead time by sitting "hot standby."

2. Don't cloud yourself with the issue. The issue is answering the phone. If you want to tell them you ae fatigues because you were planning on a later show....fine. no one is saying you shouldn't. you SHOULD answer the phone. It takes two minutes and I am sure you can get your pretty head back to sleep if you need to.

Ever try and fall back asleep at 10am?

I am not clouding the issue. Fact is the company shouldn't even be calling you early, the 10 hours before you show IS your rest....not the 10 hours after your off.

Tomorrow is a perfect example. I have a noon flight. I come on duty at 4am at the hotel for a 10am airport show for the noon departure. If something comes up and they need me at 6am to recover, I am rested and ready to take the call at 4am. Being such I will be laying down around 8pm for my 4am show.

If it was a 10am show, I would be going to bed at 1am. Now if I went to bed at 1am, and they called at 4am (I was shut off at 2pm today, so 10 hours would of been midnight), I wouldn't be rested...I should NEVER be rested at 4am when I had a 10am show. THATS being professional.

Getting up at 5am, showing at noon and flying until 1am is unprofessional, and dangerous....not to mention bush league.

 

[bluepost]

Me sitting in an FBO with no plane and no FO for hours and hours simply to force me to be "on duty" so I am required to answer the phone is NOT an improvement.

If it is then stop trying to improve my life. I don't recall asking for your assistance.

Man are you slow....what does duty and being at the airport have to do with duty? This is so clear, yet your company makes it so cloudy. They want you to think that is the only way it can work so they can have you from 6am till 2am to cover trips....and you believe them, and worse off, you do it.

It is your job as a professional to stand up and be responsible for the safety of the flight. Rested, fed, etc. These rules are written in blood, but obviously not yours. Some day when you grow up you will understand.

 

[imacdog]

Me sitting in an FBO with no plane and no FO for hours and hours simply to force me to be "on duty" so I am required to answer the phone is NOT an improvement.

If it is then stop trying to improve my life. I don't recall asking for your assistance.

Sorry but that's how your company operates. They could instead have you "on duty" at the hotel, not in some duty purgatory. Being on duty or not has nothing to do with where you are, only if you are required to answer your phone or not.

 

[glasspilot]

My views on this subject are not fed to me by my company. I formed my views by looking at countless crews sitting around FBOs with a) nothing scheduled, b) a partial crew, and c) no airplane.

It is so prevalent that it even has an industry recognized name..."airport rot". That's not my term, I've heard it straight from the folks that get it.

At my company we are never given this "airport rot" that you all speak of and it's because we ANSWER THE DAMN PHONE!!!!

We don't fly fatigued, we do fly rested, and we DON"T SHOW unless we have WORK TO DO.

And once more for those who ARE slow. Thousands of pilots fly part 91 with zero rest rules. Why am I off the reservation complying with 135 / 91K rest rules while you have no problem with those guys going on and on with no rest periods at all while on pager duty?

 

[imacdog]

Regarding (a), how does your company ever back up any flights?

Regarding (b) and (c), that's what unions and contracts are for. No crew or plane for a certain time, off to the hotel (or never leave the hotel in the first place). There is an easier, safer way you see......

 

[imacdog]

PS I am on hotel duty right now. I did not have to turn my pager on until my duty-on time, and no matter what I will not be required to work after a maximum of 14 hours after I dutied on.