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Standby Duty at Flex

JetFlex

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Just a thought; the company has previously said that they would have to put people on duty and have them sit in FBO's (crew rot) if people were not answering their phones after 10 hours of rest. I know it's been slow, but I see crews on standby day and now evening shift (until midnight) and I hear more and more folks are not answering their phones until the end of their designated rest (not just 10 hours of rest).
So has the company begun the crew rot practice?
 

CA1900

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Why would you feel obligated to answer your phone during your designated rest period?
 

glasspilot

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Ya'll are crazy to fight this fight.

I land at 1800. Nothing till 1500 the next day. My rest starts at 1900 and 10 hours later at 0500 I'm off rest and I'll answer my phone. But by you're crazy logic I'm on rest till my scheduled duty on at 1400 for my 1500 flight.

I would much rather man up and answer the phone than play the "no calls on designated rest" game because the company WILL WIN that battle. They will simply make me duty on after the 10 hours and could make me go sit at some FBO from 0500 to my flight at 1500. No thank you.

I never am told to just go sit at some airport without a reason to be there and the surest way to make our company start that silliness is to not answer the phone and to start playing the "rest" game with them.

My .02
 
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Buckeye

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Thank you Mr. "I love Management". If you are willing to let them run your QOL like that then fine, by all means go for it, just don't be upset when your partner won't answer.
 

JetFlex

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I agree with you in part Glasspilot. My concern is that it has already started. Crews are flying a leg or two then sitting standby for 6 hours. Or sitting standby then flying. The standby blocks have increased significantly and the number of people not answering phones has also increased. Please note I'm not for or against either practice. And I respect anyone's position as there are certainly two distinct sides. I guess I'm just curious to see what others are experiencing and if it's possible that the company has put the "crew rot" practice into policy as more and more pilots are not answering. If so we may have passed the point where they needed to enact the procedure but just haven't informed us as of yet.
 

imacdog

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Ya'll are crazy to fight this fight.

I land at 1800. Nothing till 1500 the next day. My rest starts at 1900 and 10 hours later at 0500 I'm off rest and I'll answer my phone. But by you're crazy logic I'm on rest till my scheduled duty on at 1400 for my 1500 flight.

I would much rather man up and answer the phone than play the "no calls on designated rest" game because the company WILL WIN that battle. They will simply make me duty on after the 10 hours and could make me go sit at some FBO from 0500 to my flight at 1500. No thank you.

I never am told to just go sit at some airport without a reason to be there and the surest way to make our company start that silliness is to not answer the phone and to start playing the "rest" game with them.

My .02

I know about 3,000 of my coworkers that share my "crazy" logic then.
 

CA1900

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Because you are partial to living inside.

:laugh:

That there are pilots that see this is as acceptable is absolutely mind-boggling to me.

You're on duty, or you're on rest. There is no inbetween. If you're on the hook to go to the airport at the company's whim, you're on duty, and it should be treated as such. That doesn't mean you have to rot at the airport -- it just means you have to be available when they want you, and that means you're on duty. There's no reason that duty period can't start at the hotel if they need someone on-call.

I'll give you a real-world example, since this is how NetJets operates. Here's how my day was scheduled today: 6am show for an 8:30am flight. I wake up at 5, and overnight, the company has pushed back the showtime by designating my first hour as "duty at hotel." Great! I turn the ringer back on on the Blackberry, roll over, and go back to sleep for an hour. I'm on duty beginning at 6am, because I now have a present responsibility to report for work should the occasion arise.

I land at what turns out to be our destination for the night around 2pm. The company keeps us on duty at the FBO for three hours, then releases us from duty at 5. Tomorrow's schedule begins with a 10am showtime, which leaves me 17 hours free of duty.

My overnight consists of going out into town, walking around the harbor, stopping to get some Mexican food, enjoying a few Margaritas 'til late, and maybe catching a movie before bed. Why can I do this? Because my rest period is planned, and I know I don't need to wake up before 8. So I plan to go to sleep at midnight, get a good solid rest, and be able to put in a safe day tomorrow.

If you had the same schedule, your phone could ring at 3am, just a few hours after going to bed, and there's no way you'd be safe to fly. Then again, it might not ring. So what do you do?

Do you go to bed at 7pm, just in case? A lot of good that does you -- even if you managed to get to sleep that early, now you're up at 3-4am, and if your original schedule holds, you'll have been up for 6-7 hours before showing up for a potential 14-hour day. You'll have been available for duty to the company for 21 hours (3am to midnight.)

How is that safe?

 
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CA1900

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I would much rather man up and answer the phone than play the "no calls on designated rest" game because the company WILL WIN that battle. They will simply make me duty on after the 10 hours and could make me go sit at some FBO from 0500 to my flight at 1500. No thank you.

And if they do that, they're out of duty time for you by 7pm. They're shooting themselves in the foot by doing that. By "manning up," as you put it, you let the company have you on the hook for damn near 24 hours at a stretch, because you're making yourself available not only for your duty period, but for much of your rest period beforehand! They get you for free from 5am 'til your normal show time of 2pm. Then you may get a 14-hour shift on top of that. 23 hours of availability for work. Nice.

How do you plan your rest when you could be woken at any time from 5am 'til early afternoon to go to work? As I said in my last message, how is that at all safe?
 

Sparse

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Why would you feel obligated to answer your phone during your designated rest period?

At CS the policy is that you do not have to answer your phine during rest. Scheduling can on extend rest, not shorten it. So if we get a call during rest, it will be to extend your rest. I chose to answer mine, especially when they have previously assigned me a 0400 standby. Don't know your policy but CS pretty much honors the policy they implented.
 

glasspilot

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The moderator just called me Mr. "I love Management". Wow.

Look, I do NOT like sitting around airports with nothing to but clog up crew lounges (assuming they have one). When I go to the airport it's because I actually have something to do there. Don't the FBO chicks look at you like you're crazy when you show up and tell them your here for a flight in 5 hours?

CA1900 summed it up. From his post his real world schedule was 0600 show for a 0830 flight. 2.5 hours to get ready at the airport! I show up at 0730 for a 0830 flight.

There's two schools of thought here. Your way and the crew is always spending time at the airport with nothing to do. My way and I never have that problem. To do that I simply answer my phone after my required rest.

Maybe you guys like to sit around FBOs feeling all important in your spiffy uniforms, but I don't. If you answer your phone and stop playing games with management then you get to stay at the hotel in comfort. If you get all upity about calls during rest (even though it's been 18 hours of rest and it's 2 in the afternoon) then you get your rest cut and forced to sit at the airport.

That's not bending over, that's being an adult.
 

eyeamthechosen1

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Ya'll are crazy to fight this fight.

I land at 1800. Nothing till 1500 the next day. My rest starts at 1900 and 10 hours later at 0500 I'm off rest and I'll answer my phone. But by you're crazy logic I'm on rest till my scheduled duty on at 1400 for my 1500 flight.

I would much rather man up and answer the phone than play the "no calls on designated rest" game because the company WILL WIN that battle. They will simply make me duty on after the 10 hours and could make me go sit at some FBO from 0500 to my flight at 1500. No thank you.

I never am told to just go sit at some airport without a reason to be there and the surest way to make our company start that silliness is to not answer the phone and to start playing the "rest" game with them.

My .02

This is the personification of a weak company man. One thing that people like you don't understand is not matter how much you bend over MANAGEMENT DOESN'T LIKE YOU. When it's time to get rid of pilots they don't go down the list of people who did or did not answer their phone. Please stop being a pawn. A bad economic environment doesn't change the definition of rest and duty. Let me send you some scrotum seeds maybe if have them long enough you will grow a pair.
 
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glasspilot

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I'm a weak company man? You got that from my post that I hate sitting at FBOs with no work in sight? You're in the wrong field my friend, you should be a psychologist cause your awesome.

How 'bout you check out your own profile and look at your "current position". Just about makes my argument for me doesn't it?
 

LizardEyes

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It is all about being FIT TO FLY !!!

CA 1900 explained it best, you are not fit to fly when your phone rings @ 3:00am. You are not safe and if you think you are because you are "manning up" then you are fooling yourself and putting your pax at risk. This is a safety issue. You need to man up to say I am not ready to fly after 5 hours of sleep.
 

o2bflyn

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Come on...some of you guys are acting like children. If you have 10 hours of rest and are not in any way fatigued answer your phone. You are on the road anyway, what is the difference if you fly at 0900 or 1500.

If the practice is legal by the regs or contract, if you are not flying fatigued....be a man and go earn your paycheck.

For god sake people......some of you are just pathetic. When you guys are done feeling like you are "screwing the man", you will find out you are just screwing yourself.
 

glasspilot

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Lets set this straight:
  • I said "man up" and ANSWER the phone. I didn't say go fly with 5 hours of rest.
  • In my operation it is IMPOSSIBLE to get a 0300 call. The earliest is 0500.
  • There are THOUSANDS of corporate pilots who do exactly what we do and are tied to a pager. Their only protection is "fatigued" to which they can then lose their jobs. Why are you not concerned about their unsafe practices? I'm at least complying with 135 rest rules.
  • Why would you trade endless hours in an FBO that happens all the time for protection against a 0300 call that happens once a year if that, when you can easily protect yourself from the same thing by just saying, "sorry, the schedule had me out at 1400 so I stayed up late and now I'm not fit to take the 0500 wheels up."
  • I have never advocated flying without adequate rest. My QOL is just fine on the road. My QOL would take a major hit if I had to start going to the airport 5 or more hours early just so my company can force me to answer the phone. I'd rather simply answer the phone.
Say what you want but I'm all for a safe operation where crews are rested. I do not fly fatigued. I do answer my phone after rest periods, as does everyone else I know.
 

bluepost

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Why does your company think you need to be at the airport to be on duty? Why not come on duty at 9am at the hotel, with a 2pm show at the airport for a 3pm flight?

If I have a 3pm show I stay up as late as possible, sleep as late as possible till 10 or 11am, to be ready for a 14 hour day starting at 2pm. That is my job and my duty to the company.

So maybe these guys you are asking to "man up" and to do their jobs, are doing exactly that.....being ready for a 14 hour day starting at 3pm.

I would say if your going to bed at 10pm the night before a 2pm show, that YOU are the one that should man up and do your job and properly plan your rest for what is scheduled, and not what you are hoping will happen.
 
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RP170

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Don't the FBO chicks look at you like you're crazy when you show up and tell them your here for a flight in 5 hours?

That must be why I can't pick up the FBO chicks! I sit at the FBO too much to impress them. Forget the big pay check! I want the chicks! I'm leaving NetJets.
 
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