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Spirit Roadshow and TA vote

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I guess I don't understand your comment about industry average and leading compensation. If this is yours (proposed):

Captain:

Years of Service DOS DOS+1 DOS+2 DOS+3 DOS+4

1 64.65 64.65 65.94 99.62 101.62
2 96.64 96.64 98.57 119.49 121.88
3 104.46 104.46 106.55 124.04 126.52
4 108.14 108.14 110.30 128.78 131.35
5 115.51 115.51 117.82 133.68 136.35
6 117.65 117.65 120.00 138.78 141.56
7 119.74 119.74 122.13 143.73 146.60
8 133.68 139.16 141.94 147.73 150.68
9 135.69 142.27 145.12 152.15 155.20
10 137.73 145.44 148.35 156.72 159.86
11 140.53 149.10 152.08 161.43 164.65
12 143.30 152.84 155.90 166.27 169.60
13 146.09 156.61 159.74 171.25 174.67
14 148.90 160.44 163.65 176.40 179.93
15 151.67 164.33 167.62 181.68 185.32

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]and this is Allegiant's (a place people have complained as being the lowest paying):[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]
pay_allegiant2010.gif
[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]Yours is lower, until a couple of years into a new contract. But, it's only higher in the upper tiers (years 12+). If a year 3 captain at Allegiant makes $136, and a year 3 captain at Spirit makes $105-126 (in the last year), how is that industry average? Please help me understand...[/FONT]


I understood him as the low pay is offset by the work rules. Correct me if Im wrong.
 
There aren't any 3 year captains. The most junior captain is 9 years. So, you see the rates going up beginning at 8 years.

Look the pie is only so big. They took care of the current pilot group, not a future pilot group that may or may not materialize.
 
Pay rate + workrules = compensation (your W2).

Our negotiators fought for a good contract...not just good payrates. Our current junior captain is 9 years and I don't think we will ever have less than 5 year captains. That is reflected in the payrates the negotiators fought for.

I did forget to mention a few very important things in your contract

Schedule Integrity:

A regular pilot is entitled to “schedule integrity,” that is, the right to take and remain on his bid trip and not be rescheduled so long as the trip operates, he is legal to fly the trip under the provisions of the FARs and this Agreement; and his estimated time of arrival on his current flight is no later than fifteen minutes (:15) prior to his next flight’s scheduled or amended scheduled departure time, or he is displaced as provided in M.2 below.
2. Pilots who have voluntarily added reserve days prior to schedule assignments retain no schedule integrity for the subsequent trip.
3. When a line pilot is displaced from his assigned flight(s) by a management pilot, an IOE/Line Check Airman, or by a line pilot who is being trained or checked by an IOE/Line Check Airman, he shall be released for the trip hour period from which he is displaced and will receive trip pay pursuant to Sections 4.D.1 and .2. Such release will not be less than one calendar day. Displacement may only occur at the pilot’s domicile. A pilot may only be required to pick up the remainder of his original trip and in accordance with the time available provisions.

Junior Assignment:

2. Any pilot who is junior assigned will be paid for such junior assignment over and above his monthly guarantee, at two hundred percent (200%) of his applicable hourly rate, the greater of the hours flown or four hours. With crew scheduling’s concurrence, he may be restored an equal number of days off. The Company may only attempt to junior assign a pilot by calling him on his contact number(s). The Company is prohibited from involuntarily junior assigning the pilot through base operations, dispatch, flight control, phone patch to the aircraft, or on a Company layover. A pilot may not be given an involuntary junior assignment when scheduling has contacted the pilot for a purpose other than junior assigning. A pilot will not be junior assigned solely because he has contacted crew scheduling regarding routine inquiries.

Pay Protection:

Whenever the company drops a flight or trip...the pilot is 100% pay protected. If you pick up some flying on your days off and it gets cancelled...the pilot is 100% pay protected as if he flew the flights. Often the company offers to drop a trip in return for you picking up another trip. My friend made over 330 hours credit in one month because he kept getting trips dropped and picking up other trips. Scheduling was desperate! That is very unusual but it is not unusual for pilots to make 110 to 150 credit that live in base and offer to pick up trips in return for other trips being dropped. These pilots put their names on the "standing available list" and scheduling calls them when they are desperate. I'm amazed some airlines don't have 100% pay protection.
 
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look at the pitiful FO pay too!!

A current 3rd year FO is making $56.25/hr. They will be be getting a 37.07% raise by Aug 2011, 49.51% raise by end of Aug 2012, 66.35% raise by Aug 2013, and 77.65% raise by Aug 2014.

Could it be better...yes. More money is always better. However, we got a significant improvement for a 30 airplane airline that wants to be an ultra low cost carrier. We would have never got those raises without the help of the NMB in releasing us from negotiations (ahead of Air Tran and Pinnacle who have been negotiating longer).

 
And remember that Airtran pilots turned down their TA due to QA issues. To renegotiate them, they will have to reconsider pay in order to have a total compensation package.
 
It didn't copy over right, but here are the Allegiant pay scales I was refering to:

Year Ca FO
12 153 92
11 151 92
10 148 92
9 146 92
8 143 92
7 141 92
6 139 92
5 138 88
4 137 82
3 136 78
2 134 66
1 131 41

I agree it can be made up in the workrules, but $11/hr (at initial yr 9 pay), needs a lot of workrules to help make up that kind of difference.
 
A current 3rd year FO is making $56.25/hr. They will be be getting a 37.07% raise by Aug 2011, 49.51% raise by end of Aug 2012, 66.35% raise by Aug 2013, and 77.65% raise by Aug 2014.

Could it be better...yes. More money is always better. However, we got a significant improvement for a 30 airplane airline that wants to be an ultra low cost carrier. We would have never got those raises without the help of the NMB in releasing us from negotiations (ahead of Air Tran and Pinnacle who have been negotiating longer).

Does it really matter what the future pay rates are? When oil goes to 150 again they will force you to relinquish those raises anyway. I give it a less than 50% chance you will ever see dos +3 rates before the contract amendable date.
 
I want your crystal ball.

Like you haven't made any predictions. Some of us want this deal to go up or down on it's own merits, but you and HT are posting "we must ratify this or Franke will impose C9k" everywhere.

What crystal ball are you looking at? Why are you so sure of your predictions? If you can predict, why can't likeitis?
 
Because I am posting about what is legally allowed. The company is free to impose it's offer.

You said you were not going to a road show, so you know nothing of the process under the RLA.

Good luck.

I've already voted.
 
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There aren't any 3 year captains. The most junior captain is 9 years. So, you see the rates going up beginning at 8 years.

Look the pie is only so big. They took care of the current pilot group, not a future pilot group that may or may not materialize.

Damn son, that's almost as selfish as an overtime hooker...I guess we need to take of you and not someone below you in seniority. Isn't that why you hate people who pick up overtime?
 
Originally Posted by lostplnetairman
I want your crystal ball.
Like you haven't made any predictions. Some of us want this deal to go up or down on it's own merits, but you and HT are posting "we must ratify this or Franke will impose C9k" everywhere.

What crystal ball are you looking at? Why are you so sure of your predictions? If you can predict, why can't likeitis?

Now that's funny stuff!!!!
 
boombird, why is it that everybody for the TA can give detailed information which I have confirmed is correct from their MEC and your side just says it sucks and vote no.

Maybe you guys should have gone to a road show to understand how the process works. I retired from a major airline and we never went to the company road shows but we sure showed up at the union ones. Why do you have a union if you won't hear their perspective of the TA? You have a good TA with excellent work rules and pay in line with the majors. Vote no if you want and see what happens. Vote yes if you agree the TA will be good for your pilot group. You have 9 days to decide. Don't let these few negative pilots influence your personal vote. Have a good night.
 
Why do you have a union if you won't hear their perspective of the TA?

Bubbers, some of the animosity could be the result of the MEC FORCING their own members back to work from the picket line they were on....

BEFORE they even saw an offer....

Just a thought Bubbers....
 
As I recall a TA allows operations to resume until a union vote is done. Spirit did not have the reserve cash to withstand a continuing strike waiting for the vote outcome. If everyone wanted to shut down the airline continuing the strike would be the answer.
 
As I recall a TA allows operations to resume until a union vote is done.


That may be so bubbers, but respect for your members comes first. And the very least, you run the numbers by them! If the company was that worried about the airline shutting down, they'd have had their ducks in a row. The strikers did!
 
Ultrarunner, you don't understand business. You only have so much cash in the bank. The NC knew how far they could go. There was no more pie to be had.

How many successful strikes have happened? We didn't kill the company and we got the company to go from nearly $40MM in concessions to over $70MM in improvements. The wages are at parity with the industry average and our work rules are considerably better.

Talk to a Jetblue pilot (not one of the top 20%) and see what they earn, what they pay, what their schedules are and how many days they are away from home (unless they live near NYC). I have and it's not pretty compared to us.
 
LPA, I have gone through a lot of contract disputes and voted no on most of them but this one seems like it should pass. I wish our airline could just go back to 2000 pay for the pilots working now. Hopefully the industry will recover to what it was some day. It cannot be done in one contract. Spirit has helped all of the industry if they approve this TA. In 5 years they can use the boost their contract gave everyone to improve the next one.
 
Talk to a Jetblue pilot (not one of the top 20%) and see what they earn, what they pay, what their schedules are and how many days they are away from home (unless they live near NYC). I have and it's not pretty compared to us.

I'm a JetBlue 5th year A320 FO bidding in the top 50% in my seat: $100K+, 14-15 days off per month, and commutable trips (so predictable I don't even have a crashpad). Add in about another $10K from JetBlue for retirement. Not great, but not terrible. If your new TA is better than that I'd vote for it too.
 
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I'm a JetBlue 5th year A320 FO bidding in the top 50% in my seat: $100K+, 14-15 days off per month, and commutable trips (so predictable I don't even have a crashpad). Add in about another $10K from JetBlue for retirement. Not great, but not terrible. If your new TA is better than that I'd vote for it too.


Thanks for insight...NKS TA rates are considerably lower than your 190 rates, by as much as 25 dollars per hour for some years. Can you believe they have rates 25 dollars less per hour than your 190 rates? I can't. No profit sharing, No employee stock options when the place goes public and we are giving away our overtime premium.

NK 5 year PIC rates never match your 320 PIC rates at any time of the 5 year contract. 10 year PIC beats your current 10 year PIC in 4 years by 1 dollar/hour.

Add 2 percent to union dues. I went on strike for pay parity with my peers, guess what, I consider jblu my peer, if they aren't who is? I see you everywhere I go flying the same aircraft, except you carry 23 less passengers per 320.

Now watch how the "pro ta" crowds beats me down, I'll start----But sprite has such a better quality of life and work rules than jblu...

Oh, and I forgot to mention no retroactive pay for the last 3.5 years of no raises.
 
Thanks for insight...NKS TA rates are considerably lower than your 190 rates, by as much as 25 dollars per hour for some years. Can you believe they have rates 25 dollars less per hour than your 190 rates? I can't. No profit sharing, No employee stock options when the place goes public and we are giving away our overtime premium.

NK 5 year PIC rates never match your 320 PIC rates at any time of the 5 year contract. 10 year PIC beats your current 10 year PIC in 4 years by 1 dollar/hour.

Add 2 percent to union dues. I went on strike for pay parity with my peers, guess what, I consider jblu my peer, if they aren't who is? I see you everywhere I go flying the same aircraft, except you carry 23 less passengers per 320.

Now watch how the "pro ta" crowds beats me down, I'll start----But sprite has such a better quality of life and work rules than jblu...

Oh, and I forgot to mention no retroactive pay for the last 3.5 years of no raises.

Another ALPA capitulation. No wonder they pulled the pulled the picket lines down before showing this pathetic tentative agreement.
 
I'm a JetBlue 5th year A320 FO bidding in the top 50% in my seat: $100K+, 14-15 days off per month, and commutable trips (so predictable I don't even have a crashpad). Add in about another $10K from JetBlue for retirement. Not great, but not terrible. If your new TA is better than that I'd vote for it too.


Senior Spirit Capt $185/hour

Senior Jet Blue Capt 159/hour
 
Cut it out. I'm not interested in the non-Spirit group weighing in on the specifics of the contract when they know nothing about it.

I've already voted. Twice! :)
 

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