Spirit Roadshow and TA vote

[bottomfeeder]

Have you signed up for the new NC? And yes, rest assured, the company will impose Contract 9000 as they are free to do so.

Why the fear dude, it needs improvement, send it back, we're in self-help....Don't be so nervous.

 

[lostplnetairman]

Just putting out facts while everyone else is putting out the angry comments. We are in self help, but remember that the company is also free to impose anything it wants to impose. So, get set for contract 9000. There's no scope clause in that.

 

[Beetle007]

To the pilots of other airlines still lurking on this Spirit thread:

I would prefer this TA over almost any other contract in the industry. I would prefer our contract more than Delta, Continental, American, jetBlue, Allegiant, Alaska, U.S. Airways, Frontier, Sun Country, Airtran, USA. 3000, Virgin America, etc.


If you we should vote NO...you should probably go read your contract first.

The only pilots who have the right to criticize anything in our contract are those from Southwest Airlines and maybe Hawaiian Airlines. I use to say Alaska until I learned they are only guaranteed 4 - 48 hour periods home a month.

 

[StaySeated]

To the pilots of other airlines still lurking on this Spirit thread:

I would prefer this TA over almost any other contract in the industry. I would prefer our contract more than Delta, Continental, American, jetBlue, Allegiant, Alaska, U.S. Airways, Frontier, Sun Country, Airtran, USA. 3000, Virgin America, etc.


If you we should vote NO...you should probably go read your contract first.

The only pilots who have the right to criticize anything in our contract are those from Southwest Airlines and maybe Hawaiian Airlines. I use to say Alaska until I learned they are only guaranteed 4 - 48 hour periods home a month.

Not criticizing anything here, but what makes this TA better than "almost any other contract in the industry"?

 

[Beetle007]

Not criticizing anything here, but what makes this TA better than "almost any other contract in the industry"?

Great question...I will answer after lunch because it is a long answer and I will try to detail some of the things that we have in our contract that you don't find at other airlines.

 

[hyflyin]

Great question...I will answer after lunch because it is a long answer and I will try to detail some of the things that we have in our contract that you don't find at other airlines.

I am a little curious of the min "4 day off" deal. Seems it could be a little limiting as it relates to credit hours. Are you guys working pref bid or hard lines.. and how easy is it to drop a day off and pick up time? Also are you guys still getting 150% for you open time pick up in the new contract?

Thanks

 

[CosmoKramer]

Great question...I will answer after lunch because it is a long answer and I will try to detail some of the things that we have in our contract that you don't find at other airlines.

Better make that a liquid lunch Beetle!!!!!

 

[Beetle007]

Not criticizing anything here, but what makes this TA better than "almost any other contract in the industry"?

No offense taken. I would simply say that Spirit Pilots have obtained a very good combination of pay and work rules. I know that some airlines might have better rules in some areas. My point is that the sum total of our Spirit work rules and pay is very good.

Contract enforcement:
We added this wording to our contract:

“..The parties will create an official bargaining history of all amended sections of the collective bargaining agreement. This history will be made before a court reporter and preserved by both sides. It is agreed that this memorialized bargaining history will be the definitive record of the parties’ bargaining conduct and intent on the amended sections, and shall be admissible as such in arbitration or other ligation.”

Scope:
Our current contract (and TA) prohibits any revenue sharing agreement that exceeds 90 days OR results in a furlough. The company admitted this during negotiations and it became part of our legally binding bargaining history. The company asked for the ability to outsource some flying and the negotiators denied their request. The company can conduct code-shares with other airlines in excess of 90 days that don’t result in a furlough AND that don’t result in Spirit making revenue from the other airlines’ flights.

Compensation:
Industry average is achieved during the contract, and exceeded by the end of the contract. Hopefully other airlines will get big pay raises because we don’t want to be above industry average when we go into negotiations in 5 years.

Per diem is $2/hr and increases a nickel a year.

Scheduling:
The company can’t schedule us to have less than 4 days off between trips (except the first 3 or last 3 days of the month). In other words, the company can't schedule you for 1, 2 or 3 days off. Once the schedule is created, the pilot can voluntarily trade trips to have less than 4 days off.

Spirit still has line bidding that allows us to bid transition conflicts when trips in one month conflict with the next month. The pilot can choose to drop trips that conflict without pay protect (i.e., this month I got 19 days off) or the pilot can choose to stay pay protected and the company can change the trips only on the days he/she was originally supposed to work. However, the pilot can never be scheduled to work more than 6 days in a row. If I fly the last 6 days of a month and bid a line with the first 5 days of the next month…..that is 11 days. So, the company has to drop 5 days pay protected (from the beginning or end of the 11 day block but not the middle). The company isn’t allowed to create days off that don’t touch days you originally had off! Once the schedule is created, I can even pick up trips on the days that were originally dropped. For example: a pilot can convert a 15 day off 85 hour line into a 15 day off 110 hour line without ever working an extra day or making special deals with scheduling.

You must have a calendar day off in base after 6 days (not just 24 hours as at some airlines).

Reserve System:
Our pilots still have one of the best reserve systems in the industry. All reserve periods for the month are scheduled to start at the same time. A pilot who starts reserve at 7am is on duty for 14 hours and has to be able to report to the airport within 3 hours.

Our contract prohibits the company from releasing you early from a reserve duty period (except on the last day so you can go home). So if I start reserve today at 7 am, the company can't call me at 8 am and give me a trip that starts the next day prior to 7 am. The only thing the company can do is extend my rest period. So if I am a 7 am reserve pilot, the company’s only ability to make me start a 6 am trip is to give me 33 hours of rest!

Original duty = 7am to 9pm – 14 hours
Original Rest = 9pm to 7am - 10 hours
Additional rest = 7am to 6am - 23 hours
TOTAL REST before 6am trip = 33 hours

The company is calling this a reserve shift. The pilots can only be given additional rest and the last day of the reserve period can’t be extended. If you aren’t on a trip you must be released 6 hours prior to the end of your originally scheduled reserve period. In other words, the company can’t shift your last day of reserve.

If a reserve pilot is given a trip, it can’t exceed 4 hours past the end of your originally scheduled reserve period. Again the company can’t shift your last day of reserve

Hours of service:
Max of 14 hours of scheduled duty. (Same as current contract)
Max of 11.5 scheduled duty if it touches 0100 to 0400 (better)

Actual duty can be 16 (same as current contract)
Actual duty can’t exceed 12.5 if it touches 0100 to 0400 (better)

The company can’t use international rest requirements for our international flights! They must use domestic unless international is more restrictive.

Minimum days off is 13 for line holder and 13 for reserve (except reserve pilots only get 12 in a 30 day month)

Vacation:
1 to 5 years seniority = 2 weeks (56 hours)
5 to 10 years seniority = 3 weeks (98 hours)
10 to 15 years seniority = 4 weeks (112 hours)
15 to retirement = 5 weeks (140 hours)

Vacation can be used in scheduled weekly blocks you bid prior to the beginning of the year (and can be changed during the year if they are still available). Any trips that touch those vacation weeks gets dropped and deducted from the vacation bank. One week can easily become 2 or 3 weeks of vacation. That is something not possible at many airlines with preferential bidding because the company could have you finish a trip the day before your vacation and start a trip the day after your vacation.

Pilots can also use what they call “floating vacation” if they want to drop individual trips during the year that aren’t part of their weekly vacation periods. There is no limit on floating vacation and it must be granted if there is 10% reserve coverage system wide. Once per 12 months, a pilot can use “mandatory floating vacation” to force the company to drop a trip even if there is less than 10% reserve coverage (except during specific holiday periods or if another pilot used it on the same day)

Training pilots

FTD and SIM instructors are seniority list pilots (i.e. we kept them in the pilot staffing numbers) and with great instructor overrides in addition to their pilot pay (DE = $50/hr, line check from pilot seat = $35/hr, sim check or line check from jumpseat = $27.50/hr, Sim inst = $20/hr, ground inst = $14/hr).

Training:
We get hotels for all simulator training in Miami (even for pilots based in Ft. Lauderdale which is just a 35 minute drive according to mapquest) And a lot of other good stuff like no checks or training between 0200 and 0600.

Sick Leave:
4 hours per month up to a cap of 400.

Arbitrations:
New expedited arbitration language added that won’t let the company delay arbitrations for many months. The availability of the company’s attorney (or union’s) is ignored when scheduling arbitration dates. We will no longer have cross examination and briefs that take months.

Pilots who are disciplined are still protected for due process and not part of the expedited language. However, there will be much more time by the union (and arbitrators) to focus on protecting pilots rather than contract interpretation arbitrations.

 

[Beetle007]

Deadheading
100% pay and must be window or aisle (if available). If not available, the seat must be the most forward part of airplane available. Seat must be given when they create the schedule and not the day of the trip. Pilot will be given a confirmation number with their schedule and can change the seat on the Spirit website like any other passenger (except to a big front seat or exit row because the company tries to sell those seats for extra). After takeoff, the pilot can move to any unsold big front seats (Spirit version of first class)

Furlough:
The union added language that allows furloughed pilots to accrue longevity for up to one year on furlough. Previously, furloughed pilots only accrued seniority and not longevity.

The union increased furlough notice from 14 to 30 days (paid for a minimum of 30 days following notice).

No pilots can be downgraded or furloughed as a result of any changes to the TA. This is complicated because a previous arbitrator ruled that Spirit can’t downgrade unless there is a reduction in force. Thereforem our negotiators just added that the company can’t furlough which also protects current captains from a downgrade.

Commuter Policy
You must attempt two flights before the start of your schedule. You must notify the company after your first missed flight. If you can’t get on your second flight…you can’t be punished. No limit on how many times you can do this.

Electronic shift trade
The company wants automated trip pickups, trades, and drops. We currently use the FLICA computer system, but requests are manually processed by schedulers each midnight which creates a high workload for them (even more if we keep growing). In order for us to approve an automated system, 75% of the days each month must be green days in which the company has to approve a drop or net loss trade. 25% of the days can be red in which case the automated system must still allow trades if the day you are picking up has worse reserve coverage than the day you are dropping.
One pilot's junk might be another pilot's gold. That is the reason the union wants it real time rather than each midnight to generate more activity. More activity = better schedules.

 

[Noodles]

I guess I don't understand your comment about industry average and leading compensation. If this is yours (proposed):

Captain:

Years of Service DOS DOS+1 DOS+2 DOS+3 DOS+4

1 64.65 64.65 65.94 99.62 101.62
2 96.64 96.64 98.57 119.49 121.88
3 104.46 104.46 106.55 124.04 126.52
4 108.14 108.14 110.30 128.78 131.35
5 115.51 115.51 117.82 133.68 136.35
6 117.65 117.65 120.00 138.78 141.56
7 119.74 119.74 122.13 143.73 146.60
8 133.68 139.16 141.94 147.73 150.68
9 135.69 142.27 145.12 152.15 155.20
10 137.73 145.44 148.35 156.72 159.86
11 140.53 149.10 152.08 161.43 164.65
12 143.30 152.84 155.90 166.27 169.60
13 146.09 156.61 159.74 171.25 174.67
14 148.90 160.44 163.65 176.40 179.93
15 151.67 164.33 167.62 181.68 185.32

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]and this is Allegiant's (a place people have complained as being the lowest paying):[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]

[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]Yours is lower, until a couple of years into a new contract. But, it's only higher in the upper tiers (years 12+). If a year 3 captain at Allegiant makes $136, and a year 3 captain at Spirit makes $105-126 (in the last year), how is that industry average? Please help me understand...[/FONT]

 

[say again]

I guess I don't understand your comment about industry average and leading compensation. If this is yours (proposed):

Captain:

Years of Service DOS DOS+1 DOS+2 DOS+3 DOS+4

1 64.65 64.65 65.94 99.62 101.62
2 96.64 96.64 98.57 119.49 121.88
3 104.46 104.46 106.55 124.04 126.52
4 108.14 108.14 110.30 128.78 131.35
5 115.51 115.51 117.82 133.68 136.35
6 117.65 117.65 120.00 138.78 141.56
7 119.74 119.74 122.13 143.73 146.60
8 133.68 139.16 141.94 147.73 150.68
9 135.69 142.27 145.12 152.15 155.20
10 137.73 145.44 148.35 156.72 159.86
11 140.53 149.10 152.08 161.43 164.65
12 143.30 152.84 155.90 166.27 169.60
13 146.09 156.61 159.74 171.25 174.67
14 148.90 160.44 163.65 176.40 179.93
15 151.67 164.33 167.62 181.68 185.32

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]and this is Allegiant's (a place people have complained as being the lowest paying):[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]

[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]Yours is lower, until a couple of years into a new contract. But, it's only higher in the upper tiers (years 12+). If a year 3 captain at Allegiant makes $136, and a year 3 captain at Spirit makes $105-126 (in the last year), how is that industry average? Please help me understand...[/FONT]

I understood him as the low pay is offset by the work rules. Correct me if Im wrong.

 

[lostplnetairman]

There aren't any 3 year captains. The most junior captain is 9 years. So, you see the rates going up beginning at 8 years.

Look the pie is only so big. They took care of the current pilot group, not a future pilot group that may or may not materialize.

 

[Beetle007]

Pay rate + workrules = compensation (your W2).

Our negotiators fought for a good contract...not just good payrates. Our current junior captain is 9 years and I don't think we will ever have less than 5 year captains. That is reflected in the payrates the negotiators fought for.

I did forget to mention a few very important things in your contract

Schedule Integrity:

A regular pilot is entitled to “schedule integrity,” that is, the right to take and remain on his bid trip and not be rescheduled so long as the trip operates, he is legal to fly the trip under the provisions of the FARs and this Agreement; and his estimated time of arrival on his current flight is no later than fifteen minutes 15) prior to his next flight’s scheduled or amended scheduled departure time, or he is displaced as provided in M.2 below.
2. Pilots who have voluntarily added reserve days prior to schedule assignments retain no schedule integrity for the subsequent trip.
3. When a line pilot is displaced from his assigned flight(s) by a management pilot, an IOE/Line Check Airman, or by a line pilot who is being trained or checked by an IOE/Line Check Airman, he shall be released for the trip hour period from which he is displaced and will receive trip pay pursuant to Sections 4.D.1 and .2. Such release will not be less than one calendar day. Displacement may only occur at the pilot’s domicile. A pilot may only be required to pick up the remainder of his original trip and in accordance with the time available provisions.

Junior Assignment:

2. Any pilot who is junior assigned will be paid for such junior assignment over and above his monthly guarantee, at two hundred percent (200%) of his applicable hourly rate, the greater of the hours flown or four hours. With crew scheduling’s concurrence, he may be restored an equal number of days off. The Company may only attempt to junior assign a pilot by calling him on his contact number(s). The Company is prohibited from involuntarily junior assigning the pilot through base operations, dispatch, flight control, phone patch to the aircraft, or on a Company layover. A pilot may not be given an involuntary junior assignment when scheduling has contacted the pilot for a purpose other than junior assigning. A pilot will not be junior assigned solely because he has contacted crew scheduling regarding routine inquiries.

Pay Protection:

Whenever the company drops a flight or trip...the pilot is 100% pay protected. If you pick up some flying on your days off and it gets cancelled...the pilot is 100% pay protected as if he flew the flights. Often the company offers to drop a trip in return for you picking up another trip. My friend made over 330 hours credit in one month because he kept getting trips dropped and picking up other trips. Scheduling was desperate! That is very unusual but it is not unusual for pilots to make 110 to 150 credit that live in base and offer to pick up trips in return for other trips being dropped. These pilots put their names on the "standing available list" and scheduling calls them when they are desperate. I'm amazed some airlines don't have 100% pay protection.

 

[boomlrd]

look at the pitiful FO pay too!!

 

[Beetle007]

look at the pitiful FO pay too!!

A current 3rd year FO is making $56.25/hr. They will be be getting a 37.07% raise by Aug 2011, 49.51% raise by end of Aug 2012, 66.35% raise by Aug 2013, and 77.65% raise by Aug 2014.

Could it be better...yes. More money is always better. However, we got a significant improvement for a 30 airplane airline that wants to be an ultra low cost carrier. We would have never got those raises without the help of the NMB in releasing us from negotiations (ahead of Air Tran and Pinnacle who have been negotiating longer).

 

[lostplnetairman]

And remember that Airtran pilots turned down their TA due to QA issues. To renegotiate them, they will have to reconsider pay in order to have a total compensation package.

 

[Noodles]

It didn't copy over right, but here are the Allegiant pay scales I was refering to:

Year Ca FO
12 153 92
11 151 92
10 148 92
9 146 92
8 143 92
7 141 92
6 139 92
5 138 88
4 137 82
3 136 78
2 134 66
1 131 41

I agree it can be made up in the workrules, but $11/hr (at initial yr 9 pay), needs a lot of workrules to help make up that kind of difference.

 

[likeitis]

A current 3rd year FO is making $56.25/hr. They will be be getting a 37.07% raise by Aug 2011, 49.51% raise by end of Aug 2012, 66.35% raise by Aug 2013, and 77.65% raise by Aug 2014.

Could it be better...yes. More money is always better. However, we got a significant improvement for a 30 airplane airline that wants to be an ultra low cost carrier. We would have never got those raises without the help of the NMB in releasing us from negotiations (ahead of Air Tran and Pinnacle who have been negotiating longer).

Does it really matter what the future pay rates are? When oil goes to 150 again they will force you to relinquish those raises anyway. I give it a less than 50% chance you will ever see dos +3 rates before the contract amendable date.

 

[lostplnetairman]

Does it really matter what the future pay rates are? When oil goes to 150 again they will force you to relinquish those raises anyway. I give it a less than 50% chance you will ever see dos +3 rates before the contract amendable date.

I want your crystal ball.

 

[likeitis]

I want your crystal ball.

None needed. What percentage of contracts in the last 20 years went the distance without management not weaseling out cuts? That is why it is more important to get the pay ASAP then some promise of it in the future.