Speed Limit under Class Bravo

[Bjammin]

You want to meet for a beer and have a laugh, great, but to be insulting and rude without even knowing who is on the other end is just bad behavior and I refuse to be rude and insulting back.

Luckly your attitude is not common in SWA. I know 22 SWA pilots and they are all very nice guys. Many have flown with me in the T-45, including a hiring Captain, and I am honored to call all of them my freinds.

If you truly would base your opinion on someone's flying skill on wether they can tell where the rim of class B airspace at all altitudes while in the goo using only a tacan in a fighter type jet, then your list of competant pilots must be very small.

I made it through the interview process with Cathay Pacific which was MUCH more demandeing then SWA's and am truly humbled to be in Hong Kong going through training. So as far as the selling cars remark, you can recant that kindly.

I apoligize for the "condenseding arse" remark as I seem to have hit a nerve.

Thanks for your service to our great country and I hope you have had and will have a great career with SWA.

 

[Huggyu2]

Back to the original question:
My answer is: "Preflight planning". That usually works...

 

[Bjammin]

True, preflight does work. However, usually around class B I end up getting vectored all around creation. If you are going 250KTS while being vectored I truly don't believe they will expect you to slow to 200 if they vector you under the limits of class B while IFR. There seems to be a difference of opinion, but in my experience I have never been asked to slow or have been told to "call a number" when I get on the ground when being vectored under class B IFR. VFR I can see being an entirely new ball of wax. You need to know where class B is at all times and can be easily violated if you brake a speed limit or bust the airspace.

Anyone else want to call the horse dead?

 

[atrdriver]

I guess if you stay at the altitudes prescribed by the IAP you should be ok. Also, the controller will not vector you below their airspace without leting you know. JMHO

Not true. Into ATL turboprops are below the floor of the class B when on the west arrivals landing west and the east arrivals landing east. You aren't below it for long, about 5 miles, but it is you responsibility to know where it is. We call it the "speed traps". In reality ATC doesn't really want you to slow for it, but by reg you must slow to 200 for those 5 miles.

 

[Vespa]

Had a controller loose his mind one day in ATL. I was flying a BE9L and had just entered below the class B and was told to say airspeed. I was going exactly 200 knots with the thing practically firewalled. I did have a 50 knot tail wind. He said "Oh, nevermind."

 

[mnixon]

Somewhere along these lines, had a controller today get on me screaming to report altitude, when I answered with 4000 level, he said my mode c was indicating 4500'. In this case, what is the benchmark, I guess in terms of like a bravo shelf. If the shelf is at 1600' and we level at 1400', could I get violated because my mode c was wrong and indicated 1900'?

 

[canyonblue737]

He was being condescending! To say I don't know where I am at all times as a senior military IP and CFII is condescending.

- 1st The military has wavers for speed limits as some fighter's manuevering speeds are well above 200 or even 250. ex: EA-6B 300KTS

- 2nd single piloted fighters are not required to have lots of pubs on board, where would we put them all? It is very difficult without an autopilot to find the chart you need, unfold it, and try to read it all while in the goo and turb with a wingman.

- 3rd I know of no one in my squadron or others that has EVER had a problem operating at speeds above 200kts under class B.

Again, i'm not saying I am right, but people trying to be all knowing towards a side of aviation they know nothing about ticks me off. Just talk to me about the rules and educate me, DON"T BE A JERK ABOUT IT!

We have controllers located at our field and in talking to them they have no problem with us going 250KTS under class B, and as I've said PHX controllers don't seem to have a problem either.

Now, I will make our guys aware of the airspeed limitation and will do my best to follow this rule if in an aircraft that can fly at 200KTS clean.

If this thread turns into a military vs. civilian thing, what a shame. I live and breathe BOTH.

look this whole discussion boils down to this...

any civilian aircraft under class B airspace shall fly 200 KIAS or the minimum clean configuration manueviring speed for their aircraft (for example for the airplane i fly, it is 210.) ATC has NO RIGHT what so ever to assign higher speeds etc., ie. they can't waive the rule. many may look the other way and be happy you are breaking the rules, but that doesn't help you when you find the one that cares or has an FAA guy looking over his shoulder at the scope on that day. everyone has been polite IMHO in this thread but you can't throw around being a CFII etc. and then state things that go against the FARs as if they are set in stone just because we want them to be.

summary: below class B = 200 KIAS or min clean manuevering speed.

 

[canyonblue737]

That's because IFR yuo are not to go under Class B, unless cleared for it. What mini wants to know is how do you know when you are and when you are not in B without a sectional. I guess if you stay at the altitudes prescribed by the IAP you should be ok. Also, the controller will not vector you below their airspace without leting you know. JMHO

controllers will vector you below class B and not say a word. happens every day. while it stinks you need to maintain SA to be aware of when you are below the class B so you can slow.

 

[Yellow Snow]

Seems you don't have to be perfect just a little early. As long as you have slowed to proper speed prior to going under shelf you are good.
You could probably establish the boundaries pretty close with something crude like a cross radial or just ballpark it with an RMI for the purpose of a II ride.

 

[Bjammin]

This thread has now been on for a number of months with some great discussion. I need to throw this in:

Picture this. You are flying a T-45 alone, one Tacan, one VOR without DME, nothing else. No GPS or EFIS and no autopilot. You are flying with a junior wingman to a field close to class B, but not under it. You are approaching your destination in the thick goo and turbulance with your wingman holding on for dear life 3 feet to your right, your speed is 250KTS because that was what you were told to keep on your descent. You have your one DME source on the field you are going to so you can have Situational Awarness.
You have one kneeboard chart with the destination field approach chart on it and maybe a high chart under. You then get vectors for your descent which may or may not take you under class B.
How on earth are you going to know you are under Class B, and how can anyone expect you to just slow down? Now, I could let go of the controls, get my sectional chart out and risk hitting my wingman. I could have studied every radial, DME, and altitude associated with the class B airspace I was not going to go in, or I could just eject.
Try hard to think about what YOU would do. Would you change speeds with a guy 3 feet away trying to suckle your wingtip when you were told to be at 250KTS? Would you change navaids and lose S/A on your destination field while low on gas? and what would changing navaids do for you without having the right chart?
I have freinds that are controllers in SOCAL and I have discussed this with them. They understand this and have told me NO PROBLEM.
The bottom line is that we, as pilots, are professionals and know when it is best to be safe, follow the rules, or both. I am not going to risk a collision with my wingman because of an obscure speed restriction when I was told to maintain 250KTS anyway. It is called the "reasonable man theory". People that lack this, I don't think, make good pilots.

Another thought - With more and more controlled airpace and better and better systems, some rules become obsolete. Did you know by law you can't take a bath in Massachustts without a doctors permission? They never took that law off the books. Some laws just don't mean much as things improve, ie:TCAS, better ground radar, better NAV systems. Do you think the people that wrote the FAR's in the 70's invisioned GPS updated IRS's with EFIS displays and TCAS R/A's and voice warnings? I might not have these systems in the T-45, but the controller will have great S/A and keep me from hitting someone.

How many of us use standard ICAO calls on the radio? How many pilots actually know all the FAR's by heart? 121, 91, 135, Whatever? Do we all follow the rules to a tee everyday? Even as CFII's?

I am not a hibitual rule breaker, I study and understand most rules. I also don't pretend to know much about anything and realize that I will be a student of aviation until retirement, but I have to know when to be safe and when to stick strictly to the rules. They don't always complement each other.

I am now off this soap box, next.

 

[Yellow Snow]

The question was asked by a guy preparing for a checkride probably in a 172. The answers are geared to a CHECK RIDE you have made it perfectly clear you are a fighter jock and no one is duly impressed so you keep ranting. The question was about a regulation so the guy can pass a check ride. If you give the answers to a DE you have given here you may get a pink slip. It may be out dated, It may be impractical, I may be a pain, but the limit under B is 200. I Was a Blackhawk crew chief in the ARMY and we used to do all kinds of illegal stuff with respect to altitudes and flight path but we, like you were military, the rules do not always apply to military aircraft.

 

[minitour]

Wow...this has gone on a lot longer than I thought it would...

-mini

 

[Vector4fun]

FWIW, in 25 yrs of civil ATC, I've never seen a "speed trap" set up to bust pilots. Now, if the speed is really out of line, we might say something, or if there's an incident, something might come out in the investigation of same, but I've never seen a controller go off on a pilot because the GS was 300 when the legal max IAS was 250 for example. (In fact, I see that all the time!) I also know most experienced controllers are sensitive to the cockpit workload in a single-seat tactical aircraft.

However, in fairness, I have had some difficulties with military aircraft. We are not a TAC or UPT base. We have traffic flows and procedures set up primarily for civilian traffic. We can't just "suspend" our procedures for 30 min on Fri afternoon. I get a little uptight about requests for unrestricted burner climbs and such. It would help a bit if I was more familiar with the practical nav capability of some of these aircraft. It's a bit irritating to me having an FA18 for example, screaming along at 400+ kts and hollerin for higher when I have to use several hand-holding vectors to get them established on the DP. In fact, it often seems the pilot hasn't really looked at the DP before departure. Also we just Love the ones who make their initial VFR call to ATC 20 miles out, negative ATIS, 400 kts and, btw, we have several requests....(grrrr...UN-able)

I don't intend to bash the military, but it would help us if those folks would take off their "fighter pilot hats" in the civilian arena, and plan and fly a bit more like their professional civilian counterparts. It would also help if we controllers were more familiar with the limitations and capabilities of your aircraft, especially those of us who don't have T-, A-, and F- aircraft based on field or nearby....

 

[Lead Sled]

...I've never seen a controller go off on a pilot because the GS was 300 when the legal max IAS was 250 for example. (In fact, I see that all the time!)...

Just a point to consider. The speed limits below 10,000' is 250 knots indicated airpseed respectively. Say you're at 9,800' msl and descending at right at 250 KIAS - your true airspeed will be roughly 300 knots. Throw in a 40 knot tailwind and you've got 340 knots across the ground. Totally within the rules. That's why Vector4fun sees it all of the time.

'Sled

 

[Vector4fun]

Just a point to consider. The speed limits below 10,000' is 250 knots indicated airpseed respectively. Say you're at 9,800' msl and descending at right at 250 KIAS - your true airspeed will be roughly 300 knots. Throw in a 40 knot tailwind and you've got 340 knots across the ground. Totally within the rules. That's why Vector4fun sees it all of the time.

'Sled

True enuf, and well known in ATC circles, which is why I only arch an eyebrow when the GS is like 370 kts at 9500', or 240 kts passing the LOM...

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Look, don't go telling me stuff about "I should know where I am at all times" I DO, but when being vectored around PHX in a fighter, I may not have the best Situational Awarness on where the Class B is at every minute. I don't have an autopilot and am in a tight cockpit by myself. It would be UNSAFE for me to have charts all over the canopy while trying to fly the jet around busy airspace. I have had no problems what so ever with PHX controllers and, in fact, have been praised for not being a hassle. I have never had anyone in my squadron have a problem and we fly everywhere in the country.
Again, I'm not saying I am in the right, but my options are limited. I may slow down to 200kts anytime I'm am near class B and will ask my compadres to do the same.
Don't go being condesending and an arse for no reason.

Hey,
US government A/C are public use and are not required to comply with FARs.
FAR definitions 1.1 describe Public use A/C and part 91 defines applicibility. All references are to registered A/C, US military are not registered with the FAA, hence no "N" number, just a ship number. Your organization may require compliance with FARs as internal operational requirement, but you will not get violated by the FAA, your C.O. may violate you for not following your internal ops requirements, but that is a whole different carpet for dancing.
PBR
P.S. what controller is gonna argue with a guy who possibily has a cannon and/or 500lb GBU on hardpoints and the ability to use said thingys? Its an approach facility not a pillbox.

 

[Bjammin]

The question was asked by a guy preparing for a checkride probably in a 172. The answers are geared to a CHECK RIDE you have made it perfectly clear you are a fighter jock and no one is duly impressed so you keep ranting. The question was about a regulation so the guy can pass a check ride. If you give the answers to a DE you have given here you may get a pink slip. It may be out dated, It may be impractical, I may be a pain, but the limit under B is 200. I Was a Blackhawk crew chief in the ARMY and we used to do all kinds of illegal stuff with respect to altitudes and flight path but we, like you were military, the rules do not always apply to military aircraft.

It's so hard trying to point out what I was talking about without soundlike like an "A" hole fighter jock, sorry. It's a catch 22. I truly don't want to be thought of as that. I moved into the airline business because of the "fighter jock" mentality. There is no place for that in any part of the aviation world.



Vector, the mentioned attitiute above is one reasons you have problems. As a military pilot you still need to be aware not all airspace is your "plaything" and respect the others using it, we are all not like that. I apoligize on behalf of all of us and will truly try to spread the word.

The F-18 and other jets are very short on leg length unless it's at altitude. Sometimes unless they get higher they will not make the destination, but if you can't get them there, then so be it. They have no right to complain, I'm sure you would get them higher if you could.
As far as the DP's, a lack of planning on their part should not mean more workload on yours. If you could I would have them hold short, take out the plate, and read it back to you. You should always have the daparture on your kneeboard with the high chart under it.
Hope this helps, and thanks for your support, I know ATC can be a thankless job, I thank you.

 

[YGBSM]

It's so hard trying to point out what I was talking about without soundlike like an "A" hole fighter jock, sorry. It's a catch 22. I truly don't want to be thought of as that. I moved into the airline business because of the "fighter jock" mentality. There is no place for that in any part of the aviation world.

Vector, the mentioned attitiute above is one reasons you have problems. As a military pilot you still need to be aware not all airspace is your "plaything" and respect the others using it, we are all not like that. I apoligize on behalf of all of us and will truly try to spread the word.

The F-18 and other jets are very short on leg length unless it's at altitude. Sometimes unless they get higher they will not make the destination, but if you can't get them there, then so be it. They have no right to complain, I'm sure you would get them higher if you could.
As far as the DP's, a lack of planning on their part should not mean more workload on yours. If you could I would have them hold short, take out the plate, and read it back to you. You should always have the daparture on your kneeboard with the high chart under it.
Hope this helps, and thanks for your support, I know ATC can be a thankless job, I thank you.

I truly hate to be the one to break this to you, but if you want to avoid sounding like an A-hole, your best course of action at this point would be to shut your pie hole. And since neither the EA-6, the T-2, or the T-45 are fighters, it would be hard to sound like a fighter jock, so I'd quit worrying about that.
For those of us who fly fighters and don't have the problems with positional awareness you're describing, can you stop defending us now please? You are not educating anyone with your knowledge of TACAN only ops, and you may not be embarrassing yourself, but I am embarrassed for you. Did you move to the airline industry because the bad men with the fighter pilot mentality nicknamed you Magellan?
There may be a reason you had to go to Hong Kong to get an airline job. Yes, technical interview, very demanding and so forth, whatever. Good luck with that.

Cheers! Stiff upper lip and all that.

 

[FracCapt]

or 240 kts passing the LOM...

What's wrong with that? Assuming it's a class B, that is...

 

[Daveman]

Wow...this has gone on a lot longer than I thought it would...

-mini

You know the answer to your question now, I presume.