Speed Limit under Class Bravo

[Bjammin]

You want to meet for a beer and have a laugh, great, but to be insulting and rude without even knowing who is on the other end is just bad behavior and I refuse to be rude and insulting back.

Luckly your attitude is not common in SWA. I know 22 SWA pilots and they are all very nice guys. Many have flown with me in the T-45, including a hiring Captain, and I am honored to call all of them my freinds.

If you truly would base your opinion on someone's flying skill on wether they can tell where the rim of class B airspace at all altitudes while in the goo using only a tacan in a fighter type jet, then your list of competant pilots must be very small.

I made it through the interview process with Cathay Pacific which was MUCH more demandeing then SWA's and am truly humbled to be in Hong Kong going through training. So as far as the selling cars remark, you can recant that kindly.

I apoligize for the "condenseding arse" remark as I seem to have hit a nerve.

Thanks for your service to our great country and I hope you have had and will have a great career with SWA.

 

[Huggyu2]

Back to the original question:
My answer is: "Preflight planning". That usually works...

 

[Bjammin]

True, preflight does work. However, usually around class B I end up getting vectored all around creation. If you are going 250KTS while being vectored I truly don't believe they will expect you to slow to 200 if they vector you under the limits of class B while IFR. There seems to be a difference of opinion, but in my experience I have never been asked to slow or have been told to "call a number" when I get on the ground when being vectored under class B IFR. VFR I can see being an entirely new ball of wax. You need to know where class B is at all times and can be easily violated if you brake a speed limit or bust the airspace.

Anyone else want to call the horse dead?

 

[atrdriver]

I guess if you stay at the altitudes prescribed by the IAP you should be ok. Also, the controller will not vector you below their airspace without leting you know. JMHO

Not true. Into ATL turboprops are below the floor of the class B when on the west arrivals landing west and the east arrivals landing east. You aren't below it for long, about 5 miles, but it is you responsibility to know where it is. We call it the "speed traps". In reality ATC doesn't really want you to slow for it, but by reg you must slow to 200 for those 5 miles.

 

[Vespa]

Had a controller loose his mind one day in ATL. I was flying a BE9L and had just entered below the class B and was told to say airspeed. I was going exactly 200 knots with the thing practically firewalled. I did have a 50 knot tail wind. He said "Oh, nevermind."

 

[mnixon]

Somewhere along these lines, had a controller today get on me screaming to report altitude, when I answered with 4000 level, he said my mode c was indicating 4500'. In this case, what is the benchmark, I guess in terms of like a bravo shelf. If the shelf is at 1600' and we level at 1400', could I get violated because my mode c was wrong and indicated 1900'?

 

[canyonblue737]

He was being condescending! To say I don't know where I am at all times as a senior military IP and CFII is condescending.

- 1st The military has wavers for speed limits as some fighter's manuevering speeds are well above 200 or even 250. ex: EA-6B 300KTS

- 2nd single piloted fighters are not required to have lots of pubs on board, where would we put them all? It is very difficult without an autopilot to find the chart you need, unfold it, and try to read it all while in the goo and turb with a wingman.

- 3rd I know of no one in my squadron or others that has EVER had a problem operating at speeds above 200kts under class B.

Again, i'm not saying I am right, but people trying to be all knowing towards a side of aviation they know nothing about ticks me off. Just talk to me about the rules and educate me, DON"T BE A JERK ABOUT IT!

We have controllers located at our field and in talking to them they have no problem with us going 250KTS under class B, and as I've said PHX controllers don't seem to have a problem either.

Now, I will make our guys aware of the airspeed limitation and will do my best to follow this rule if in an aircraft that can fly at 200KTS clean.

If this thread turns into a military vs. civilian thing, what a shame. I live and breathe BOTH.

look this whole discussion boils down to this...

any civilian aircraft under class B airspace shall fly 200 KIAS or the minimum clean configuration manueviring speed for their aircraft (for example for the airplane i fly, it is 210.) ATC has NO RIGHT what so ever to assign higher speeds etc., ie. they can't waive the rule. many may look the other way and be happy you are breaking the rules, but that doesn't help you when you find the one that cares or has an FAA guy looking over his shoulder at the scope on that day. everyone has been polite IMHO in this thread but you can't throw around being a CFII etc. and then state things that go against the FARs as if they are set in stone just because we want them to be.

summary: below class B = 200 KIAS or min clean manuevering speed.

 

[canyonblue737]

That's because IFR yuo are not to go under Class B, unless cleared for it. What mini wants to know is how do you know when you are and when you are not in B without a sectional. I guess if you stay at the altitudes prescribed by the IAP you should be ok. Also, the controller will not vector you below their airspace without leting you know. JMHO

controllers will vector you below class B and not say a word. happens every day. while it stinks you need to maintain SA to be aware of when you are below the class B so you can slow.

 

[Yellow Snow]

Seems you don't have to be perfect just a little early. As long as you have slowed to proper speed prior to going under shelf you are good.
You could probably establish the boundaries pretty close with something crude like a cross radial or just ballpark it with an RMI for the purpose of a II ride.

 

[Bjammin]

This thread has now been on for a number of months with some great discussion. I need to throw this in:

Picture this. You are flying a T-45 alone, one Tacan, one VOR without DME, nothing else. No GPS or EFIS and no autopilot. You are flying with a junior wingman to a field close to class B, but not under it. You are approaching your destination in the thick goo and turbulance with your wingman holding on for dear life 3 feet to your right, your speed is 250KTS because that was what you were told to keep on your descent. You have your one DME source on the field you are going to so you can have Situational Awarness.
You have one kneeboard chart with the destination field approach chart on it and maybe a high chart under. You then get vectors for your descent which may or may not take you under class B.
How on earth are you going to know you are under Class B, and how can anyone expect you to just slow down? Now, I could let go of the controls, get my sectional chart out and risk hitting my wingman. I could have studied every radial, DME, and altitude associated with the class B airspace I was not going to go in, or I could just eject.
Try hard to think about what YOU would do. Would you change speeds with a guy 3 feet away trying to suckle your wingtip when you were told to be at 250KTS? Would you change navaids and lose S/A on your destination field while low on gas? and what would changing navaids do for you without having the right chart?
I have freinds that are controllers in SOCAL and I have discussed this with them. They understand this and have told me NO PROBLEM.
The bottom line is that we, as pilots, are professionals and know when it is best to be safe, follow the rules, or both. I am not going to risk a collision with my wingman because of an obscure speed restriction when I was told to maintain 250KTS anyway. It is called the "reasonable man theory". People that lack this, I don't think, make good pilots.

Another thought - With more and more controlled airpace and better and better systems, some rules become obsolete. Did you know by law you can't take a bath in Massachustts without a doctors permission? They never took that law off the books. Some laws just don't mean much as things improve, ie:TCAS, better ground radar, better NAV systems. Do you think the people that wrote the FAR's in the 70's invisioned GPS updated IRS's with EFIS displays and TCAS R/A's and voice warnings? I might not have these systems in the T-45, but the controller will have great S/A and keep me from hitting someone.

How many of us use standard ICAO calls on the radio? How many pilots actually know all the FAR's by heart? 121, 91, 135, Whatever? Do we all follow the rules to a tee everyday? Even as CFII's?

I am not a hibitual rule breaker, I study and understand most rules. I also don't pretend to know much about anything and realize that I will be a student of aviation until retirement, but I have to know when to be safe and when to stick strictly to the rules. They don't always complement each other.

I am now off this soap box, next.