Speed Limit under Class Bravo

[Yellow Snow]

The question was asked by a guy preparing for a checkride probably in a 172. The answers are geared to a CHECK RIDE you have made it perfectly clear you are a fighter jock and no one is duly impressed so you keep ranting. The question was about a regulation so the guy can pass a check ride. If you give the answers to a DE you have given here you may get a pink slip. It may be out dated, It may be impractical, I may be a pain, but the limit under B is 200. I Was a Blackhawk crew chief in the ARMY and we used to do all kinds of illegal stuff with respect to altitudes and flight path but we, like you were military, the rules do not always apply to military aircraft.

 

[minitour]

Wow...this has gone on a lot longer than I thought it would...

-mini

 

[Vector4fun]

FWIW, in 25 yrs of civil ATC, I've never seen a "speed trap" set up to bust pilots. Now, if the speed is really out of line, we might say something, or if there's an incident, something might come out in the investigation of same, but I've never seen a controller go off on a pilot because the GS was 300 when the legal max IAS was 250 for example. (In fact, I see that all the time!) I also know most experienced controllers are sensitive to the cockpit workload in a single-seat tactical aircraft.

However, in fairness, I have had some difficulties with military aircraft. We are not a TAC or UPT base. We have traffic flows and procedures set up primarily for civilian traffic. We can't just "suspend" our procedures for 30 min on Fri afternoon. I get a little uptight about requests for unrestricted burner climbs and such. It would help a bit if I was more familiar with the practical nav capability of some of these aircraft. It's a bit irritating to me having an FA18 for example, screaming along at 400+ kts and hollerin for higher when I have to use several hand-holding vectors to get them established on the DP. In fact, it often seems the pilot hasn't really looked at the DP before departure. Also we just Love the ones who make their initial VFR call to ATC 20 miles out, negative ATIS, 400 kts and, btw, we have several requests....(grrrr...UN-able)

I don't intend to bash the military, but it would help us if those folks would take off their "fighter pilot hats" in the civilian arena, and plan and fly a bit more like their professional civilian counterparts. It would also help if we controllers were more familiar with the limitations and capabilities of your aircraft, especially those of us who don't have T-, A-, and F- aircraft based on field or nearby....

 

[Lead Sled]

...I've never seen a controller go off on a pilot because the GS was 300 when the legal max IAS was 250 for example. (In fact, I see that all the time!)...

Just a point to consider. The speed limits below 10,000' is 250 knots indicated airpseed respectively. Say you're at 9,800' msl and descending at right at 250 KIAS - your true airspeed will be roughly 300 knots. Throw in a 40 knot tailwind and you've got 340 knots across the ground. Totally within the rules. That's why Vector4fun sees it all of the time.

'Sled

 

[Vector4fun]

Just a point to consider. The speed limits below 10,000' is 250 knots indicated airpseed respectively. Say you're at 9,800' msl and descending at right at 250 KIAS - your true airspeed will be roughly 300 knots. Throw in a 40 knot tailwind and you've got 340 knots across the ground. Totally within the rules. That's why Vector4fun sees it all of the time.

'Sled

True enuf, and well known in ATC circles, which is why I only arch an eyebrow when the GS is like 370 kts at 9500', or 240 kts passing the LOM...

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Look, don't go telling me stuff about "I should know where I am at all times" I DO, but when being vectored around PHX in a fighter, I may not have the best Situational Awarness on where the Class B is at every minute. I don't have an autopilot and am in a tight cockpit by myself. It would be UNSAFE for me to have charts all over the canopy while trying to fly the jet around busy airspace. I have had no problems what so ever with PHX controllers and, in fact, have been praised for not being a hassle. I have never had anyone in my squadron have a problem and we fly everywhere in the country.
Again, I'm not saying I am in the right, but my options are limited. I may slow down to 200kts anytime I'm am near class B and will ask my compadres to do the same.
Don't go being condesending and an arse for no reason.

Hey,
US government A/C are public use and are not required to comply with FARs.
FAR definitions 1.1 describe Public use A/C and part 91 defines applicibility. All references are to registered A/C, US military are not registered with the FAA, hence no "N" number, just a ship number. Your organization may require compliance with FARs as internal operational requirement, but you will not get violated by the FAA, your C.O. may violate you for not following your internal ops requirements, but that is a whole different carpet for dancing.
PBR
P.S. what controller is gonna argue with a guy who possibily has a cannon and/or 500lb GBU on hardpoints and the ability to use said thingys? Its an approach facility not a pillbox.

 

[Bjammin]

The question was asked by a guy preparing for a checkride probably in a 172. The answers are geared to a CHECK RIDE you have made it perfectly clear you are a fighter jock and no one is duly impressed so you keep ranting. The question was about a regulation so the guy can pass a check ride. If you give the answers to a DE you have given here you may get a pink slip. It may be out dated, It may be impractical, I may be a pain, but the limit under B is 200. I Was a Blackhawk crew chief in the ARMY and we used to do all kinds of illegal stuff with respect to altitudes and flight path but we, like you were military, the rules do not always apply to military aircraft.

It's so hard trying to point out what I was talking about without soundlike like an "A" hole fighter jock, sorry. It's a catch 22. I truly don't want to be thought of as that. I moved into the airline business because of the "fighter jock" mentality. There is no place for that in any part of the aviation world.



Vector, the mentioned attitiute above is one reasons you have problems. As a military pilot you still need to be aware not all airspace is your "plaything" and respect the others using it, we are all not like that. I apoligize on behalf of all of us and will truly try to spread the word.

The F-18 and other jets are very short on leg length unless it's at altitude. Sometimes unless they get higher they will not make the destination, but if you can't get them there, then so be it. They have no right to complain, I'm sure you would get them higher if you could.
As far as the DP's, a lack of planning on their part should not mean more workload on yours. If you could I would have them hold short, take out the plate, and read it back to you. You should always have the daparture on your kneeboard with the high chart under it.
Hope this helps, and thanks for your support, I know ATC can be a thankless job, I thank you.

 

[YGBSM]

It's so hard trying to point out what I was talking about without soundlike like an "A" hole fighter jock, sorry. It's a catch 22. I truly don't want to be thought of as that. I moved into the airline business because of the "fighter jock" mentality. There is no place for that in any part of the aviation world.

Vector, the mentioned attitiute above is one reasons you have problems. As a military pilot you still need to be aware not all airspace is your "plaything" and respect the others using it, we are all not like that. I apoligize on behalf of all of us and will truly try to spread the word.

The F-18 and other jets are very short on leg length unless it's at altitude. Sometimes unless they get higher they will not make the destination, but if you can't get them there, then so be it. They have no right to complain, I'm sure you would get them higher if you could.
As far as the DP's, a lack of planning on their part should not mean more workload on yours. If you could I would have them hold short, take out the plate, and read it back to you. You should always have the daparture on your kneeboard with the high chart under it.
Hope this helps, and thanks for your support, I know ATC can be a thankless job, I thank you.

I truly hate to be the one to break this to you, but if you want to avoid sounding like an A-hole, your best course of action at this point would be to shut your pie hole. And since neither the EA-6, the T-2, or the T-45 are fighters, it would be hard to sound like a fighter jock, so I'd quit worrying about that.
For those of us who fly fighters and don't have the problems with positional awareness you're describing, can you stop defending us now please? You are not educating anyone with your knowledge of TACAN only ops, and you may not be embarrassing yourself, but I am embarrassed for you. Did you move to the airline industry because the bad men with the fighter pilot mentality nicknamed you Magellan?
There may be a reason you had to go to Hong Kong to get an airline job. Yes, technical interview, very demanding and so forth, whatever. Good luck with that.

Cheers! Stiff upper lip and all that.

 

[FracCapt]

or 240 kts passing the LOM...

What's wrong with that? Assuming it's a class B, that is...

 

[Daveman]

Wow...this has gone on a lot longer than I thought it would...

-mini

You know the answer to your question now, I presume.