Speed Limit under Class Bravo

[PC12Cowboy]

mini...who did your spin ride??

 

[HMR]

Mini- If you're so worried about busting 200kts in the 172 during the checkride just back it off a little bit to 1700rpm or so.

 

[Lead Sled]

Mini- If you're so worried about busting 200kts in the 172 during the checkride just back it off a little bit to 1700rpm or so.

HMR...
It was his commercial checkride so it must have been a 172RG, hence the concern over busting the 200 kt speed limit.



'Sled

 

[j41driver]

The maximum airspeed underlying class B is 200 knots or clean maneuvering speed whichever is lower. In an MD-80, that can be 250 knots; 230 knots in a heavy 737. They don't expect you to keep flaps out to make this restriction.

Good call...I had forgotten about that. Mostly since I haven't flown anything that couldn't do 200 kts clean.

 

[English]

I don't think minitour is going to have to worry about speeds in an MD-80 or a 737 for a few more months...

 

[Mr. Irrelevant]

Mini,

In faster and more complex aircraft, you may very well have a MFD that depicts airspace and without going into detail on how you use it, I will say you can use the MFD to find out the floor of the class B you're in or near. PHX767 mentions PDK and the high floor out there. Yah, it's 6000 and I was at 5000 last week when ATC queried our speed and the Captain was going 215. A few guys here said they will tell you when to slow down or when you're under Class B but that is absolutely untrue. The best piece of advice besides just slowing to 200 whenever you think you may go under class B is what English and PHX767 told you, correct reponse to ATC asking is "200"!

Needless to say, every other trip to PDK last week, we were at 200 or less at least five minutes out from the class B. Better safe than sorry.

Mr. I.

 

[NJA Capt]

In faster and more complex aircraft, you may very well have a MFD that depicts airspace...

Yea, I wish! I have flown with Primus 2000 (Citation X), as well as P1000 systems, and neither depict special use airspace on MFDs. A pretty big oversight in my opinion. On the other hand, every handheld GPS these days has it, as do most small GA aircraft. Is that backwards or what?!?!

So don't get used to using those G530s while training.....the jet you move into probably won't have it. It's back to using "paper."

 

[Bandit60]

Whoa, Whoa, Whoa.

There is a very big caveat to this rule. The maximum airspeed underlying class B is 200 knots or clean maneuvering speed whichever is lower. In an MD-80, that can be 250 knots; 230 knots in a heavy 737. They don't expect you to keep flaps out to make this restriction.

I don't understand your argument. According to your statement "the max airspeed underlying class B is 200kts or clean maneuvering speed whichever is lower", then if the clean maneuvering speed is 230 or 250 then the 200kts is lower so therefore you must maintain 200.

Where did you find this because this could affect some bizjets as well? I dont remember seeing it in the regs but I could have missed it.

 

[HMR]

I don't understand your argument. According to your statement "the max airspeed underlying class B is 200kts or clean maneuvering speed whichever is lower", then if the clean maneuvering speed is 230 or 250 then the 200kts is lower so therefore you must maintain 200.

I think he meant "whichever is higher".

 

[Lead Sled]

I don't understand your argument. According to your statement "the max airspeed underlying class B is 200kts or clean maneuvering speed whichever is lower", then if the clean maneuvering speed is 230 or 250 then the 200kts is lower so therefore you must maintain 200. Where did you find this because this could affect some bizjets as well? I dont remember seeing it in the regs but I could have missed it.

Bandit60...
You are correct, it does affect certain bizjets. It's only been that last few years that this has even come up for us bizjet types, we haven't had any aircraft where this was even an issue. Bottom line is this - if your weight nets a required clean minimum speed above 250 kts below 10,000' or above 200 kts when operating below the lateral limits if Class B Airspace, you can accelerate to that speed - period. The intent of 14 CFR 91.117 is not to force turbojets to leave flaps/slats out to climb. There is no requirement that you fly with flaps/slats out so you can meet the speed restrictions. You are expected to clean up and fly at clean MMS until 10000'.

I'm typed in the Gulfstream G-200 and at higher takeoff weights, it requires airspeeds of around 220 kias to retract the slats and Krueger flaps. Since I had never encountered the need to climb faster than 200 knot inorder to clean up the airplane I wanted to make sure that I avoided the need to spend some "quality, one on one time" with one of the local feds. I contacted a good friend of mine who is an FAA inspector. I asked him the following specific question: "...is it necessary to maintain a configuration (slats and Kruger flaps deployed) that will allow the aircraft to comply with the 200 kias speed limit when operating beneath the lateral limits of Class B airspace or is it acceptable to fly the aircraft in the "clean" configuration even though the minimum safe airspeed in the clean configuration is above the 200 knot limit?" He refered the question to another inspector at another office, who sent me the following reply:

"...The FAR's do not prohibit that operation. Now that I have said that let me explain the finer points about working with ATC and the FAA.
1. If you are at a low altitude and exceed 200 or 250 there is a record made by ATC and ATC may question you. However your flight in question will end up as an investigation at the FSDO. When you are contacted regarding the "possible fracture" of 91.117 and you tell them what you told me it will probably be closed with no action.

2. You have 2 choices (1) configure the airplane to maintain the speed limits or (2) fly clean at the higher speed.

3. If you maintain speed limits and configure the airplane to do so, no problem end of subject.

4. If you clean the airplane up and accelerate to the speed required be absolutely positive you tell ATC on each frequency you operate on the reasons for exceeding the speed limits while in the airspace discussed in 91.117. Remember ATC spaces aircraft distances based on speed. This should preclude a FSDO investigation.

If you read 91.117(d) it does not specify the aircraft configuration. All it says is "...any particular operation..."

The decision is yours. Hope this helps."

Here's another thing to be aware of. There are those who think that 91.117 (a) authorizes individual air traffic controllers to authorize deviations from the rule. NOT! ATC is NOT the "Administrator" and controllers can not authorize deviations. There was a "test" at IAH where the Administrator authorized increased speed operations and controllers did ask you to pick up the speed.

There are some other exemptions, such as operational necessity & emergencies that allow you to deviate. Personally, I've deviated from the rule many times, back when I was a Life Flight pilot flying Citations and MU-2 air ambulances. When the flight nurse or physician told us to "step on it" that's exactly what we did. We just told ATC that we needed to keep our speed up. We'd keep the speed at the barber pole until it was necessary to start slowing down for landing. All the FSDO guys wanted from us was the usual deviation letter. I bet I filled a couple of dozen of those over a 3-year period.

Hope this helps clarify things.

'Sled

 

[Bjammin]

Thanks for that great research! Now maybe we can put this thing to bed.

I found out some fighter type aircraft have letters on file with the FAA that allow them to fly above the 250KTS below 10K in any airspace. Some of our jet's best climb speed is 300KTS and, especially in formation, it is very difficult to fly any slower without a configuration change. So please don't bust on a military guy if he says he flies faster then some required speed limits, even under class B airspace.

 

[Bandit60]

Thanks for the information

 

[Mr. Irrelevant]

Yea, I wish! I have flown with Primus 2000 (Citation X), as well as P1000 systems, and neither depict special use airspace on MFDs. A pretty big oversight in my opinion. On the other hand, every handheld GPS these days has it, as do most small GA aircraft. Is that backwards or what?!?!

So don't get used to using those G530s while training.....the jet you move into probably won't have it. It's back to using "paper."

That sucks NJA. I've flown two turboprops and both had the functionality in the MFD to depict typical Class B/C airspace floors and ceilings as well as special use airspace. How the hell do you know if you're under a class B at all? Pull out a VFR map and get a cross-radial off a VOR? Do you just slow to 200 anyway? That seems unlikely. As I mentioned, I'd disagree with the posters who say ATC tells you when you're in or under class B or gives airspeed restrictions near that airspace. Doesn't always happen and it's pretty funny to hear the next controller flip out because one guy is going 235, the next 135 and the next 170.

Mr. I.

 

[mnixon]

Thanks for that great research! Now maybe we can put this thing to bed.

I found out some fighter type aircraft have letters on file with the FAA that allow them to fly above the 250KTS below 10K in any airspace. Some of our jet's best climb speed is 300KTS and, especially in formation, it is very difficult to fly any slower without a configuration change. So please don't bust on a military guy if he says he flies faster then some required speed limits, even under class B airspace.

Last time I checked the Government makes special considerations for military aircraft.

 

[hawg2hawk]

Last time I checked the Government makes special considerations for military aircraft.

Like what?

 

[Singlecoil]

Thanks HMR, I did mean "whichever is higher".

 

[HMR]

Thanks HMR, I did mean "whichever is higher".

Hey, I figure anyone who's into single coils is pretty smart. Personally, I think the less magnets to interfere with the strings vibration, the better the tone. An early '60's Gibson Melody Maker can bring me to tears. Of course anything sounds good through my Matchless DC-30. But I digress...

What was the topic again?

 

[K.V.]

It's 200 knots in class B Guys. I know a few people that have gotten a speeding ticket (warning) climbing out at the normal 250.

 

[Flechas]

It's 200 knots in class B Guys. I know a few people that have gotten a speeding ticket (warning) climbing out at the normal 250.

You mean under class B it is 200, inside B is 250.

 

[Singlecoil]

It's 200 knots in class B Guys. I know a few people that have gotten a speeding ticket (warning) climbing out at the normal 250.

Or maybe he meant D.

 

[GIVDrvr]

Anyone have a FAA pub reference for the clean maneuvering speed in excess of 200 knot below class B issue?

 

[apdsm]

Look, don't go telling me stuff about "I should know where I am at all times" I DO, but when being vectored around PHX in a fighter, I may not have the best Situational Awarness on where the Class B is at every minute. I don't have an autopilot and am in a tight cockpit by myself. It would be UNSAFE for me to have charts all over the canopy while trying to fly the jet around busy airspace. I have had no problems what so ever with PHX controllers and, in fact, have been praised for not being a hassle. I have never had anyone in my squadron have a problem and we fly everywhere in the country.
Again, I'm not saying I am in the right, but my options are limited. I may slow down to 200kts anytime I'm am near class B and will ask my compadres to do the same.
Don't go being condesending and an arse for no reason.

He was not being condescending or an arse. If it ever came down to it, that is EXACTLY what the FAA would say!

 

[av8tor4239]

I fly the ATR in and out of ATL. There are several speed traps where they will bring you in below class B depending if you are landing east or west, and what arrival you are coming in on.

Also, on the ATR going to CSG or MCN, you might not go above 6000 feet for the entire flight. ATC in ATL has never said anything about it, but a rule is a rule?

Anyone else in and out of ATL Hartsfield Jackson (Laquisha Tyrone Jammal Lakita) International airport have an opinion on the ATL speed traps?

 

[Bjammin]

He was being condescending! To say I don't know where I am at all times as a senior military IP and CFII is condescending.

- 1st The military has wavers for speed limits as some fighter's manuevering speeds are well above 200 or even 250. ex: EA-6B 300KTS

- 2nd single piloted fighters are not required to have lots of pubs on board, where would we put them all? It is very difficult without an autopilot to find the chart you need, unfold it, and try to read it all while in the goo and turb with a wingman.

- 3rd I know of no one in my squadron or others that has EVER had a problem operating at speeds above 200kts under class B.

Again, i'm not saying I am right, but people trying to be all knowing towards a side of aviation they know nothing about ticks me off. Just talk to me about the rules and educate me, DON"T BE A JERK ABOUT IT!

We have controllers located at our field and in talking to them they have no problem with us going 250KTS under class B, and as I've said PHX controllers don't seem to have a problem either.

Now, I will make our guys aware of the airspeed limitation and will do my best to follow this rule if in an aircraft that can fly at 200KTS clean.

If this thread turns into a military vs. civilian thing, what a shame. I live and breathe BOTH.

He was not being condescending or an arse. If it ever came down to it, that is EXACTLY what the FAA would say!

 

[Singlecoil]

Anyone have a FAA pub reference for the clean maneuvering speed in excess of 200 knot below class B issue?

Sec. 91.117

Aircraft speed.

(a) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator, no person may operate an aircraft below 10,000 feet MSL at an indicated airspeed of more than 250 knots (288 m.p.h.).
(b) Unless otherwise authorized or required by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft at or below 2,500 feet above the surface within 4 nautical miles of the primary airport of a Class C or Class D airspace area at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph). This paragraph (b) does not apply to any operations within a Class B airspace area. Such operations shall comply with paragraph (a) of this section.
(c) No person may operate an aircraft in the airspace underlying a Class B airspace area designated for an airport or in a VFR corridor designated through such a Class B airspace area, at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph).
(d) If the minimum safe airspeed for any particular operation is greater than the maximum speed prescribed in this section, the aircraft may be operated at that minimum speed.

The key to reading that is the "any particular operation" part. If the configuration you are in requires you to fly faster than 200 to maintain bank angle protection, you can. I thought the 200 in Class D was hard and fast, but it looks like it isn't either. Some heavy jets require faster than 250kts to fly clean. This is the section that allows that as well.

 

[SWA Aviator]

Look, don't go telling me stuff about "I should know where I am at all times" I DO, but when being vectored around PHX in a fighter, I may not have the best Situational Awarness on where the Class B is at every minute. I don't have an autopilot and am in a tight cockpit by myself.


Wow dude I hope you don't fly by yourself it seems you need to have a safety pilot if you have that much trouble navigating. You better know where you are going and if you don't you don't need to be airborne! I heard China Air is hiring!

 

[Bjammin]

Another condesending arse.

Until you have done #2 in my above thread, please save the rude comments.
I respect you helo time, I respect your hours, but you are truly CLUELESS when it comes to tactical jet aviation. I fly by myself all the time with 3 student solo wingman and several tons of bombs probably over your house, scary huh. Or how about leading a 15 plane gorilla package into north Iraq with sam sights called to go hot. When was the last time you were is a situation where if your navigation was off YOU GOT SHOT AT!
If you want to fault me for not knowing exactly where the rim of all class B airspace is with only a tacan and a small kneeboard chart, fine. However, while the FAA and most others seem to know the stress of the above and give some slack, I just don't care.

 

[jumppilot]

Bjammin,

Chill dude. And what I mean by that is, for every two people who reply saying you are an idiot, there are 12,566 people who don't post in support of your position.

Heck, even most of the airline types on this board don't even know when they are below a class B above 250....YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE!

 

[Lead Sled]

Bjammin,

Chill dude. And what I mean by that is, for every two people who reply saying you are an idiot, there are 12,566 people who don't post in support of your position.

Heck, even most of the airline types on this board don't even know when they are below a class B above 250....YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE!

Jumppilot...
I'll go you even one better, most "airline types" have no clue because they have no need - ATC keeps those guys solidly within Class B Airspace when they're operating in and out of the primary airport. We've got a moving map display on the bizjet I fly that has the various airspaces displayed. It's the only way that we can really know for sure whether or not we're in or below the airspace.

'Sled

 

[SWA Aviator]

Another condesending arse.

Until you have done #2 in my above thread, please save the rude comments.
I respect you helo time, I respect your hours, but you are truly CLUELESS when it comes to tactical jet aviation. I fly by myself all the time with 3 student solo wingman and several tons of bombs probably over your house, scary huh. Or how about leading a 15 plane gorilla package into north Iraq with sam sights called to go hot. When was the last time you were is a situation where if your navigation was off YOU GOT SHOT AT!
If you want to fault me for not knowing exactly where the rim of all class B airspace is with only a tacan and a small kneeboard chart, fine. However, while the FAA and most others seem to know the stress of the above and give some slack, I just don't care.

You need to find another line of work if you can't navigate around class B! I'll bet I have more time at flight idle in combat then you have total! I would hate to be your student forget about being your wingman, I'll bet your career is a short one. You need to start caring! It's a small aviation world out there and I can bet you'll never be in my cockpit. We weed out guys like you in the interview process. Can you say "We have the perfect car for you, $199 down $199 per month no matter what you credit history is?"