Speed below Class B

[FD109]

Re: In addition to the FARs

(d) If the minimum safe speed for any particular operation is greater than the maximum speed prescribed in this section, the aircraft may be operated at that minimum speed.

Re: the reg quoted above

The incident I am describing happened at PIE with a departure to the south. This put the derarting aircraft below Class B until above 3,000 feet. There was a fed (operations inspector) on the jumpseat.

The aircraft was a DC-9-51

Clean minimum maneuvering speed was 215

Slat Ext/Flaps Ret minimum maneuvering speed was 185

The SID required the aircraft to climb to and maintain 1,600 feet (below Class B)

The captain flew the normal climb profile that called for "cleaning up" at 1,000 feet. He climbed to and maintained 1,600 feet and maintained the min maneuvering speed of 215 knots. (below Class B)

The fed attempted to violate the crew for exceeding 200 kts below class B. His argument was that by leaving the slats extended, the pilot could have complied with the 200 knot restriction and that the company's procedures allowed for this.

Note: This carrier's FCOM contained a statement that it is acceptable to deviate from the standard climb profile above obstruction clearance altitude or 400 feet whichever is higher if necessary to comply with ATC restrictions and for operational reasons at the PIC's discretion.

The fed knew the carrier's manual well and used this statement to try to get the crew.

The violation was finally dropped, but the disagreement on who was right was really never settled.

Comments?

 

[The FNG]

It depends if the Fed's name is Richard Head.

 

[FD109]

It depends if the Fed's name is Richard Head.

It wasn't his name, but it sure was his description.

 

[busdrvr]

Thought I would chime in on this.

FAR 91.131 and AIM 3-12(d) state:

A clearance for a visual approach to a primary airport IS NOT authorization for turbine powered airplanes to operate below the designated floors of the class B airspace.

Be careful going into LAS...this has been a problem in the past.

B.

 

[ex208driver]

when I was going through my initial fed ride was on a short flight from ellington field in houston to intercontinental also in houston and they will keep you down at around 2000-3000 ft for the short flight back. the fed riding that day told us he was riding the jumpseat doing another fed ride when one of the controller in the iah area said for the aircraft to go above the 200 knots below the class b around iah and his response was to do the 200 kts or less and he went and found the controller and his supervisor and told them what he had just heard and that they would bust someone for following the contollers instruction and go above 200 kts. his reasoning was that they could vector you in and out of class B but that the underlying area is not controlled exclusively by the local controllers that the vfr pilots will skirt just under the class B. those of you that fly in the houston area keep a pretty good eye out for the boundaries because they problaly will not tell you that you are going under B airspace. Also watch it if you are going to do the dylin arrival in ewr with a pretty good tailwind. a pretty good descent from 11000 to 8000 with the slowing to 250 within about 11 miles are so to do it in. Fly safely

 

[captjim]

Hey ex208driver, you're right about that stuff. I've herd the same thing about the speed limits and the class B stuff. Some of our feds are hardcore.

That Dylan arrival is a little of a challenge of your not used to it. That arrival got me about a year ago going into Newark. I was screaming down at 320kts just as ATC requesed, and a tailwind of about 40kts. I got to that stepdown and really noticed how much time it gave you to slow down and then get down, well it was interesting! I made it though, well the altitude at least which was not the case for the guy behind me, he got his pee pee smacted for not making the altitude, I guess he missed it by 2,000ft or so. I learned my lesson from that one, won't do that again.

 

[ex208driver]

captjim frst time i did the dylin arrival we had a 75 knot tailwind with a groundspeed in excess of 400 knots. only thing i do now is slow it to 250 for that last step down and crank the vsi downwhen at 245 kias. fly safely

 

[temcgrew]

I don't know If atlanta is the worst as far as the 200kt rule, I do hear it everytime I fly in there cause some guy used to operating at home without trouble goes bombing in there. I used to be based at RYY which is under class B. about 1997, I could be wrong, there was a midair between a cessna 172 and a citation bravo. The 172 was flying around and between several broken layers without a transponder on and took out the horizontal and vertical stab of the bravo. This was about the time everyone started hearing "say airspeed". and re-enforces the reason the reg is there in the first place.