Speed below Class B

[JetPilot500]

Hey Guys,

It's kinda simple. When in doubt, slow down! If you think you are close to being below Class B, slow down. If you slow down a few miles too soon, no one will care. There is no Minimum Speed FAR.

I'm all for going fast, but not when it comes to risking my certificate.

JetPilot500

 

[Rvrrat]

In addition to the FARs

From:
FAA Order 7110.65N Air Traffic Control effective 02/21/02 includes Change 1 effective 08/08/02

Chapter 5
Section 7

NOTE-
1. A pilot operating at or above 10,000 feet MSL on an assigned speed adjustment greater than 250 knots is expected to comply with 14 CFR Section 91.117(a) when cleared below 10,000 feet MSL, within domestic airspace, without notifying ATC. Pilots are expected to comply with the other provisions of 14 CFR Section 91.117 without notification.

2. Speed restrictions of 250 knots do not apply to aircraft operating beyond 12 NM from the coastline within the U.S. Flight Information Region, in offshore Class E airspace below 10,000 feet MSL. However, in airspace underlying a Class B airspace area designated for an airport, or in a VFR corridor designated through such as a Class B airspace area, pilots are expected to comply with the 200 knot speed limit specified in 14 CFR Section 91.117(c). (See 14 CFR Sections 91.117(c) and 91.703.)


For clarification & saving some from having to dig:

91.117 Aircraft speed.

(a) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator , no person may operate an aircraft below 10,000 feet MSL at an indicated airspeed of more than 250 knots (288 m.p.h.).

(b) Unless otherwise authorized or required by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft at or below 2,500 feet above the surface within 4 nautical miles of the primary airport of a Class C or Class D airspace area at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 m.p.h.). This paragraph (b) does not apply to any operations within a Class B airspace area. Such operations shall comply with paragraph (a) of this section.

(c) No person may operate an aircraft in the airspace underlying a Class B sirspace area designated for an airport or in a VFR corridor designated through such a Class B airspace area, at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 m.p.h).

(d) If the minimum safe speed for any particular operation is greater than the maximum speed prescribed in this section, the aircraft may be operated at that minimum speed.

 

[El Cid Av8or]

Falcon Capt:

You're right, they won't tell you to intentionally bust a reg and that the PIC must request a higher speed for safety purposes. My bad. I'm just used to controllers asking pilots to "keep their speed up."

I guess it all goes back to your signature line...

"Your aircraft should never arrive at a point where your mind wasn't 30 seconds earlier."


Tailwinds...

 

[The FNG]

LJDRVR,

[Under the terminal tab of your Jepp book #1, You will find Class B charts for every Class B airport in the US. If you are flying to a Class B satellite airport, pull this chart out during cruise to familiarize yourself with it. ]

My Terminal Tab doesn't contain those charts and my Log of Current Pages doesn't say they go there. Must be airline specific.

El Cid Av8or,

[A controller can request that an aircraft keep up speed in excess of 200 KIAS for seperation and believe it or not, weight issues. From what I understand though, it must be worked out with the controlling facility beforehand]

I think you're refering to this:

(b) Unless otherwise authorized or required by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft at or below 2,500 feet above the surface within 4 nautical miles of the primary airport of a Class C or Class D airspace area at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph). This paragraph (b) does not apply to any operations within a Class B airspace area. Such operations shall comply with paragraph (a) of this section.

Around C or D ATC can authorize you to go faster than 200 but not greater than 250.

 

[172driver]

The Class B maps in my Jepps are the first page for the associated city. Before the DP's and STARS. Suppose you could pull them all out and put them under the terminal tab...

 

[The FNG]

[Suppose you could pull them all out and put them under the terminal tab...[

Not really. The Log of Current Pages is the order in which the Jeppesen binder should be organized. My LOG pages indicate the 10-1A (Class B Chart) is either the first page or immediately after the 10-1 (Area Chart) for a particular airport; then the 10-2 (Arrivals) and 10-3 (Departures). Some airports (KAUS, KDFW, etc.) don't use the 10 prefix but the suffix protocol remains the same.

 

[El Cid Av8or]

The FNG:

Yes, that's what I was thinking of. Thanks for digging up the exact wording.

I still like the full-page ad I had from an old aviation magazine. It was for Air Force ROTC and it had a picture of an SR-71 almost at altitude and said "In our world, there is no speed limit..."

 

[flipflyr]

Quick speed related question for the gurus (maybe a little thread drift here, sorry).

I noticed in the FARs about speed being <250 under 10K, but there isn't a "speed limit" within Class B, right?

The reason I ask is because in Dallas, the Class B extends to 11K, and people I fly with hesitate to accelerate past 250 on the climbout until 11K, because they think that the 250 rule is within the Class B airspace. I haven't found the FAR which states that.

Does it even exist?

 

[501261]

14 CFR 91.117 makes no mention of speed WITHIN Class B, so there is NO actual speed limit WITHIN Class B. Below 10,000 MSL 91.117A states 250kts. is max and that INCLUDES the Class B BELOW 10. However, if you're above 10 and still inside Class B feel free to accelerate! Denver's Class B also extends to 12000'MSL.

 

[flipflyr]

Cool. Thanks for the reply... If someone else does disagree w/ us, though, please feel free to quote "chapter and verse"!

 

[FD109]

Re: In addition to the FARs

(d) If the minimum safe speed for any particular operation is greater than the maximum speed prescribed in this section, the aircraft may be operated at that minimum speed.

Re: the reg quoted above

The incident I am describing happened at PIE with a departure to the south. This put the derarting aircraft below Class B until above 3,000 feet. There was a fed (operations inspector) on the jumpseat.

The aircraft was a DC-9-51

Clean minimum maneuvering speed was 215

Slat Ext/Flaps Ret minimum maneuvering speed was 185

The SID required the aircraft to climb to and maintain 1,600 feet (below Class B)

The captain flew the normal climb profile that called for "cleaning up" at 1,000 feet. He climbed to and maintained 1,600 feet and maintained the min maneuvering speed of 215 knots. (below Class B)

The fed attempted to violate the crew for exceeding 200 kts below class B. His argument was that by leaving the slats extended, the pilot could have complied with the 200 knot restriction and that the company's procedures allowed for this.

Note: This carrier's FCOM contained a statement that it is acceptable to deviate from the standard climb profile above obstruction clearance altitude or 400 feet whichever is higher if necessary to comply with ATC restrictions and for operational reasons at the PIC's discretion.

The fed knew the carrier's manual well and used this statement to try to get the crew.

The violation was finally dropped, but the disagreement on who was right was really never settled.

Comments?

 

[The FNG]

It depends if the Fed's name is Richard Head.

 

[FD109]

It depends if the Fed's name is Richard Head.

It wasn't his name, but it sure was his description.

 

[busdrvr]

Thought I would chime in on this.

FAR 91.131 and AIM 3-12(d) state:

A clearance for a visual approach to a primary airport IS NOT authorization for turbine powered airplanes to operate below the designated floors of the class B airspace.

Be careful going into LAS...this has been a problem in the past.

B.

 

[ex208driver]

when I was going through my initial fed ride was on a short flight from ellington field in houston to intercontinental also in houston and they will keep you down at around 2000-3000 ft for the short flight back. the fed riding that day told us he was riding the jumpseat doing another fed ride when one of the controller in the iah area said for the aircraft to go above the 200 knots below the class b around iah and his response was to do the 200 kts or less and he went and found the controller and his supervisor and told them what he had just heard and that they would bust someone for following the contollers instruction and go above 200 kts. his reasoning was that they could vector you in and out of class B but that the underlying area is not controlled exclusively by the local controllers that the vfr pilots will skirt just under the class B. those of you that fly in the houston area keep a pretty good eye out for the boundaries because they problaly will not tell you that you are going under B airspace. Also watch it if you are going to do the dylin arrival in ewr with a pretty good tailwind. a pretty good descent from 11000 to 8000 with the slowing to 250 within about 11 miles are so to do it in. Fly safely

 

[captjim]

Hey ex208driver, you're right about that stuff. I've herd the same thing about the speed limits and the class B stuff. Some of our feds are hardcore.

That Dylan arrival is a little of a challenge of your not used to it. That arrival got me about a year ago going into Newark. I was screaming down at 320kts just as ATC requesed, and a tailwind of about 40kts. I got to that stepdown and really noticed how much time it gave you to slow down and then get down, well it was interesting! I made it though, well the altitude at least which was not the case for the guy behind me, he got his pee pee smacted for not making the altitude, I guess he missed it by 2,000ft or so. I learned my lesson from that one, won't do that again.

 

[ex208driver]

captjim frst time i did the dylin arrival we had a 75 knot tailwind with a groundspeed in excess of 400 knots. only thing i do now is slow it to 250 for that last step down and crank the vsi downwhen at 245 kias. fly safely

 

[temcgrew]

I don't know If atlanta is the worst as far as the 200kt rule, I do hear it everytime I fly in there cause some guy used to operating at home without trouble goes bombing in there. I used to be based at RYY which is under class B. about 1997, I could be wrong, there was a midair between a cessna 172 and a citation bravo. The 172 was flying around and between several broken layers without a transponder on and took out the horizontal and vertical stab of the bravo. This was about the time everyone started hearing "say airspeed". and re-enforces the reason the reg is there in the first place.