Speed below Class B

[501261]

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It is the Pilot's responsibility to know when he is under the Class B and it is also the Pilot's responsibility to reduce speed to 200 kias or less when below the class B airspace...
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Ya, Ya I know, I was just thinking I might be on to some loophole in the regs that would let you go fast beneath the Class B. Loophole's closed I agree with all of you and believe that you need to be at 200 below Class B.

Tune in the VOR that the TCA is centered on & keep track of your radial/dme off of it, which will tell you which segment of the wedding cake you're in. Adjust speed accordingly.

A lot of people have responded with the same answer, putting the VOR in # 2 and knowing your distance. Certainly sound advice, but that got me thinking. If you pull out the Jepp 10-1A page for LAX how do you define the limits of Class B? Guess what at SOME Class B airspace the limits are defined by VISUAL REFERENCE, a lot of good that will do in the clouds. LAX airspace is the only one that comes to mind, but I am sure there are others, that define the limits of Class B with visual points. Now imagine you are flying into SMO the for the first time how can you really know that the last 12 miles (DARTS-SMO) is going to be beneath Class B, especially when the Class B is defined by Dodger Stadium!

How about the PIKES departure out of APA, are you telling me you have never accelerated above 200kts below 10,000’ MSL?

LRDRVR, I have a feeling that this might be one of the most violated rules in the book. I mean, I'm sure you have done the HOU-GLS Shriner runs almost as many times as I have, yet it's never occurred to me until now that half of that trip is BENEATH Class B!

Hopefully I’m not opening a can of worms on this subject.

 

[fokkerjet]

Using the LAX example, all I did was OPEN UP A MAP!!!! Plain as day, on both LO 3-4 and the Class B airspace chart, Class B airspace is shown. Flying inbound on the SMO 032R, I'll need to be at 200 kts by 11 DME if I'm below 5000'. This is not rocket science, maps are produced for a reason other than to block out the sun.

As for departing APA, all I need to do is climb 3500' agl if I'm going via PUB, or 4500' agl if via ALS before I'm in Denver's Class B.

 

[501261]

FokkerJet, where on Jepp page 10-1A do you see that? I don't have the low charts handy so I can't comment LO3-4 OR 5-6, but I KNOW there are no RADIALS and DME fixes on the JEPP LAX page 10-1A, dated 7-16-99!

Now, you might have somehow deducted that Dodger Stadium is on the SMO 032 radial at 11 DME, but how does that help you when you are on " maintain a 240 heading until intercepting the VOR final approach course, cleared VOR 21 Approach?" Or on departure when you get vectors to go over the top of LAX on the way to SLI on the departure? Exactly when can you accelerate to 200?

 

[172driver]

501261,

If you don't know where you are at all times, maybe you should buy yourself a handheld GPS or some basic IFR training. I know it's busy up there but many of us are flying below Class B in bug smashers anywhere from 40-90 kts. Aircraft flying around at 250 kts. down there can be a little scary. That extra speed might be just enough to get us both killed. There are many ways to reliably fix your position whether in the clouds or not.

 

[Checks]

I dont fly a plane that goes over 200kts but I have heard the NY controllers ream out ExecJet guys for slowing down going into TEB. The conversion goes like this:

NY: EJ123, say speed
EJ: 200
NY: WHY! Keep your speed up!
EJ: We are under the B, need to be 200
NY: I said keep your speed up
EJ: ok

Not saying it is correct but after hearing this conversation more than 10x I wouldnt slow down if I was in a jet.

 

[banned username 2]

I dont fly a plane that goes over 200kts but I have heard the NY controllers ream out ExecJet guys for slowing down going into TEB. The conversion goes like this:

NY: EJ123, say speed
EJ: 200
NY: WHY! Keep your speed up!
EJ: We are under the B, need to be 200
NY: I said keep your speed up
EJ: ok

Not saying it is correct but after hearing this conversation more than 10x I wouldnt slow down if I was in a jet.

Atlanta: EJ123, say speed
EJ: 240
Atlanta: Be advised you are below but within the lateral boundaries of the Atlanta Class Bravo airspace, speed requirement is 200 kts or less. please call the following number when you land, are you prepared to copy?
EJ: standby
Atlanta: Roger
EJ: Go ahead, prepared to copy
Atlanta: EJ123 call 770-xxx-xxxx
EJ: Roger

Now I'm not saying ExecJet did this, just using it as an example, BUT I have heard this conversation sevearl times in various Class B areas (Atlanta is/was the worst... Chicago a few times too)

Rules are rules, just because you are in a jet doesn't mean squat... I have had controllers ask me to give them best speed when I am below Class B... if I can I help out, but always be very careful... if their supervisor walks by and decides to make a stink out of it, could be interesting...

 

[501261]

Good, I thought I was going to wake up this morning and have gotten a bunch of messages telling me I'm an idiot and that the LAX Class B is defined by radials, etc. Which it very well might be, I'm not based there so I really don't know off the top of my head. I could go out to the plane and look at the charts, but I'm too dang lazy.

So the only reason I am basing that LAX's Class B is by visual points, is the stuff that I have in my hotel room which is Jepp LAX page 10-1A, and my experience. So you might be able to find radials and distances on the LO3-4, LAX 10-1, or VFR Terminal area charts. However, the only thing that I have in my hotel room is LAX's page 10-1A and my experience going into SMO that the LAX Class B follows the Hollywood hills to the north.

 

[MTP2ATP]

Falcon Capt is absolutely correct on this one in all of his posts. We are responsible for knowing our position at all times and though the altimeter tells us part of the story, our situational awareness must fill in the gaps. As has been pointed out, the Jepps depict every class B area with the altitudes and DME fixes that define them. The previously mentioned FAR is the law. If the controllers need us to be faster than 200 knots, they need to keep us a little higher a little longer so that we can legally do it.

Ask yourself which of the earlier conversations you would rather have with the controller. For me it's a no brainer, as the PIC I am the final authority on the operation of that aircraft and complying with the regs, SPs, and POH supersedes all other considerations except of course in the event of an emergency. In the one scenario, they can try to punk you out and take over your cockpit, but while we always try to work with those guys/gals we are still the final arbiter when it comes to the operation of our aircraft.

 

[El Cid Av8or]

Yes, Falcon Capt is correct but (and someone politely correct me if I am wrong on this)...

A controller can request that an aircraft keep up speed in excess of 200 KIAS for seperation and believe it or not, weight issues. From what I understand though, it must be worked out with the controlling facility beforehand (i.e. before it would be necessary to slow down to below 200 KIAS). I do know that there are some heavy jets (like 747s, 777s, C-5s, etc.) that need over 200 KIAS to maintain altitude and initial approaches.

 

[banned username 2]

A controller can request that an aircraft keep up speed in excess of 200 KIAS for seperation and believe it or not, weight issues.

The Controller can NOT say "You are too heavy, go 230 kias... If your safe minimum speed is above the speed limit you are to fly your safe minimum speed... the controller doesn't tell you to do this, the PIC does it...

As far as Seperation, the controller can not tell you to violate a reg because he screwed up his job... he will just have to slow the other guy... and if it was an emergency move, they don't use speed, because speed changes too slowly... they will always use altitude or a turn...