Speed below Class B

[banned username 2]

I dont fly a plane that goes over 200kts but I have heard the NY controllers ream out ExecJet guys for slowing down going into TEB. The conversion goes like this:

NY: EJ123, say speed
EJ: 200
NY: WHY! Keep your speed up!
EJ: We are under the B, need to be 200
NY: I said keep your speed up
EJ: ok

Not saying it is correct but after hearing this conversation more than 10x I wouldnt slow down if I was in a jet.

Atlanta: EJ123, say speed
EJ: 240
Atlanta: Be advised you are below but within the lateral boundaries of the Atlanta Class Bravo airspace, speed requirement is 200 kts or less. please call the following number when you land, are you prepared to copy?
EJ: standby
Atlanta: Roger
EJ: Go ahead, prepared to copy
Atlanta: EJ123 call 770-xxx-xxxx
EJ: Roger

Now I'm not saying ExecJet did this, just using it as an example, BUT I have heard this conversation sevearl times in various Class B areas (Atlanta is/was the worst... Chicago a few times too)

Rules are rules, just because you are in a jet doesn't mean squat... I have had controllers ask me to give them best speed when I am below Class B... if I can I help out, but always be very careful... if their supervisor walks by and decides to make a stink out of it, could be interesting...

 

[501261]

Good, I thought I was going to wake up this morning and have gotten a bunch of messages telling me I'm an idiot and that the LAX Class B is defined by radials, etc. Which it very well might be, I'm not based there so I really don't know off the top of my head. I could go out to the plane and look at the charts, but I'm too dang lazy.

So the only reason I am basing that LAX's Class B is by visual points, is the stuff that I have in my hotel room which is Jepp LAX page 10-1A, and my experience. So you might be able to find radials and distances on the LO3-4, LAX 10-1, or VFR Terminal area charts. However, the only thing that I have in my hotel room is LAX's page 10-1A and my experience going into SMO that the LAX Class B follows the Hollywood hills to the north.

 

[MTP2ATP]

Falcon Capt is absolutely correct on this one in all of his posts. We are responsible for knowing our position at all times and though the altimeter tells us part of the story, our situational awareness must fill in the gaps. As has been pointed out, the Jepps depict every class B area with the altitudes and DME fixes that define them. The previously mentioned FAR is the law. If the controllers need us to be faster than 200 knots, they need to keep us a little higher a little longer so that we can legally do it.

Ask yourself which of the earlier conversations you would rather have with the controller. For me it's a no brainer, as the PIC I am the final authority on the operation of that aircraft and complying with the regs, SPs, and POH supersedes all other considerations except of course in the event of an emergency. In the one scenario, they can try to punk you out and take over your cockpit, but while we always try to work with those guys/gals we are still the final arbiter when it comes to the operation of our aircraft.

 

[El Cid Av8or]

Yes, Falcon Capt is correct but (and someone politely correct me if I am wrong on this)...

A controller can request that an aircraft keep up speed in excess of 200 KIAS for seperation and believe it or not, weight issues. From what I understand though, it must be worked out with the controlling facility beforehand (i.e. before it would be necessary to slow down to below 200 KIAS). I do know that there are some heavy jets (like 747s, 777s, C-5s, etc.) that need over 200 KIAS to maintain altitude and initial approaches.

 

[banned username 2]

A controller can request that an aircraft keep up speed in excess of 200 KIAS for seperation and believe it or not, weight issues.

The Controller can NOT say "You are too heavy, go 230 kias... If your safe minimum speed is above the speed limit you are to fly your safe minimum speed... the controller doesn't tell you to do this, the PIC does it...

As far as Seperation, the controller can not tell you to violate a reg because he screwed up his job... he will just have to slow the other guy... and if it was an emergency move, they don't use speed, because speed changes too slowly... they will always use altitude or a turn...

 

[JetPilot500]

Hey Guys,

It's kinda simple. When in doubt, slow down! If you think you are close to being below Class B, slow down. If you slow down a few miles too soon, no one will care. There is no Minimum Speed FAR.

I'm all for going fast, but not when it comes to risking my certificate.

JetPilot500

 

[Rvrrat]

In addition to the FARs

From:
FAA Order 7110.65N Air Traffic Control effective 02/21/02 includes Change 1 effective 08/08/02

Chapter 5
Section 7

NOTE-
1. A pilot operating at or above 10,000 feet MSL on an assigned speed adjustment greater than 250 knots is expected to comply with 14 CFR Section 91.117(a) when cleared below 10,000 feet MSL, within domestic airspace, without notifying ATC. Pilots are expected to comply with the other provisions of 14 CFR Section 91.117 without notification.

2. Speed restrictions of 250 knots do not apply to aircraft operating beyond 12 NM from the coastline within the U.S. Flight Information Region, in offshore Class E airspace below 10,000 feet MSL. However, in airspace underlying a Class B airspace area designated for an airport, or in a VFR corridor designated through such as a Class B airspace area, pilots are expected to comply with the 200 knot speed limit specified in 14 CFR Section 91.117(c). (See 14 CFR Sections 91.117(c) and 91.703.)


For clarification & saving some from having to dig:

91.117 Aircraft speed.

(a) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator , no person may operate an aircraft below 10,000 feet MSL at an indicated airspeed of more than 250 knots (288 m.p.h.).

(b) Unless otherwise authorized or required by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft at or below 2,500 feet above the surface within 4 nautical miles of the primary airport of a Class C or Class D airspace area at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 m.p.h.). This paragraph (b) does not apply to any operations within a Class B airspace area. Such operations shall comply with paragraph (a) of this section.

(c) No person may operate an aircraft in the airspace underlying a Class B sirspace area designated for an airport or in a VFR corridor designated through such a Class B airspace area, at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 m.p.h).

(d) If the minimum safe speed for any particular operation is greater than the maximum speed prescribed in this section, the aircraft may be operated at that minimum speed.

 

[El Cid Av8or]

Falcon Capt:

You're right, they won't tell you to intentionally bust a reg and that the PIC must request a higher speed for safety purposes. My bad. I'm just used to controllers asking pilots to "keep their speed up."

I guess it all goes back to your signature line...

"Your aircraft should never arrive at a point where your mind wasn't 30 seconds earlier."


Tailwinds...

 

[The FNG]

LJDRVR,

[Under the terminal tab of your Jepp book #1, You will find Class B charts for every Class B airport in the US. If you are flying to a Class B satellite airport, pull this chart out during cruise to familiarize yourself with it. ]

My Terminal Tab doesn't contain those charts and my Log of Current Pages doesn't say they go there. Must be airline specific.

El Cid Av8or,

[A controller can request that an aircraft keep up speed in excess of 200 KIAS for seperation and believe it or not, weight issues. From what I understand though, it must be worked out with the controlling facility beforehand]

I think you're refering to this:

(b) Unless otherwise authorized or required by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft at or below 2,500 feet above the surface within 4 nautical miles of the primary airport of a Class C or Class D airspace area at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph). This paragraph (b) does not apply to any operations within a Class B airspace area. Such operations shall comply with paragraph (a) of this section.

Around C or D ATC can authorize you to go faster than 200 but not greater than 250.

 

[172driver]

The Class B maps in my Jepps are the first page for the associated city. Before the DP's and STARS. Suppose you could pull them all out and put them under the terminal tab...

 

[The FNG]

[Suppose you could pull them all out and put them under the terminal tab...[

Not really. The Log of Current Pages is the order in which the Jeppesen binder should be organized. My LOG pages indicate the 10-1A (Class B Chart) is either the first page or immediately after the 10-1 (Area Chart) for a particular airport; then the 10-2 (Arrivals) and 10-3 (Departures). Some airports (KAUS, KDFW, etc.) don't use the 10 prefix but the suffix protocol remains the same.

 

[El Cid Av8or]

The FNG:

Yes, that's what I was thinking of. Thanks for digging up the exact wording.

I still like the full-page ad I had from an old aviation magazine. It was for Air Force ROTC and it had a picture of an SR-71 almost at altitude and said "In our world, there is no speed limit..."

 

[flipflyr]

Quick speed related question for the gurus (maybe a little thread drift here, sorry).

I noticed in the FARs about speed being <250 under 10K, but there isn't a "speed limit" within Class B, right?

The reason I ask is because in Dallas, the Class B extends to 11K, and people I fly with hesitate to accelerate past 250 on the climbout until 11K, because they think that the 250 rule is within the Class B airspace. I haven't found the FAR which states that.

Does it even exist?

 

[501261]

14 CFR 91.117 makes no mention of speed WITHIN Class B, so there is NO actual speed limit WITHIN Class B. Below 10,000 MSL 91.117A states 250kts. is max and that INCLUDES the Class B BELOW 10. However, if you're above 10 and still inside Class B feel free to accelerate! Denver's Class B also extends to 12000'MSL.

 

[flipflyr]

Cool. Thanks for the reply... If someone else does disagree w/ us, though, please feel free to quote "chapter and verse"!