Southwest Window

[freightdogfred]

Not quite Freight.

I got hired without the type, and PFT_128 actually paid a company so he could have a job.

Would you pay to work at McDonald's?

Ha Ha this is like herding cats. Even a simpleton like yourself should be able to comprehend it. You got hired by Southwest, conditionally. The condition was that you obtain a type on a B737, as you were not qualified. You paid for your training on the 737 to obtain the said job. I'm not saying I disagree, hell I would have done it too. You recouped all your monies right away, I get it. For you not to see the irony of you calling someone else out on the PFT issue is disingenuous at best, and it makes you look rather vapid.

 

[humveedriver]

"Justification, in Christian theology, is God's act of removing the guilt and penalty of sin while at the same time declaring a sinner righteous through Christ's atoning sacrifice. In Protestantism, righteousness from God is viewed as being credited to the sinner's account through faith alone, without works." - the mighty wiki.

Rings a bell. People justify paying for the type at SWA, even though in all likely they probably think it is wrong at some level to have to do it.

 

[HowardBorden]

Rings a bell. People justify paying for the type at SWA, even though in all likely they probably think it is wrong at some level to have to do it.

For me it was a simple business proposition. I was conditionally offered a job that was paying $20,000 more than most of the competition, coincidentally, none of the competition was hiring me or anyone else at the time. I had to make a $9,000 investment to get the job that was offered.

I don't think it was in any way "wrong" for me to make that investment. The wrong decision would have been to not accept the offer and holdi out for months or more likely years to accept a position that was not offered or even available at the time. A job that would pay me in the neighborhood of $20,000 less in the first year than SWA was already offering me. I would have had to pass on the seniority offered immediately, at an airline I really wanted to work at. A bird in the hand as they say.

All that being said I would have preferred to hang on to that investment money but that simply wasn't an option so I acted in my best interest. I had no regrets then and I have none now.

 

[humveedriver]

I don't think it was in any way "wrong" for me to make that investment. The wrong decision would have been to not accept the offer and holdi out for months or more likely years to accept a position that was not offered or even available at the time. A job that would pay me in the neighborhood of $20,000 less in the first year than SWA was already offering me. I would have had to pass on the seniority offered immediately, at an airline I really wanted to work at. A bird in the hand as they say.

In the late 90's I had to pay $250 to flight safety so they could screen me for a bank of potential commuter airline interviews. I ended up receiving two offers for employment from two different commuters/regionals. Both wanted $10,000 upfront. I ended turning both of them down. I had access to the money. It just felt like I was selling out my profession. Yeah but SWA pays more, yeah but it's my final airline job. It's still wrong. I could have paid to get into the business faster, quicker seniority and upgrade, all with much lower time than my peers. Sorry but no. It's a choice of course. There are 3 things I've determined I won't do while calling this my profession. Paying for a job, picking up extra flying while junior pilots are furloughed and scabbing. I've passed the test on 2/3. There is a good chance SWA will test me on number 3 before it's all said and done.

* In my examples there are alternatives. The simplest answer to buying a type rating for a SWA job is that you want to work for that company and there isn't a realistic alternative to gaining employment. Simple. No math required. Just don't justify it. You bought the type because you wanted to work for SWA.

 

[General Lee]

For me it was a simple business proposition. I was conditionally offered a job that was paying $20,000 more than most of the competition, coincidentally, none of the competition was hiring me or anyone else at the time. I had to make a $9,000 investment to get the job that was offered.

I don't think it was in any way "wrong" for me to make that investment. The wrong decision would have been to not accept the offer and holdi out for months or more likely years to accept a position that was not offered or even available at the time. A job that would pay me in the neighborhood of $20,000 less in the first year than SWA was already offering me. I would have had to pass on the seniority offered immediately, at an airline I really wanted to work at. A bird in the hand as they say.

All that being said I would have preferred to hang on to that investment money but that simply wasn't an option so I acted in my best interest. I had no regrets then and I have none now.

Hey Howie, where did you fly the metro and RJ? Mesaba?



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[FurloughedAgain]

If you take the PFT component out of the discussion you're also left with an interesting discussion. There are those on this thread and others that suggest that you should avoid going to company "A" in favor of company "B" or "C" where the upgrade is faster and growth potential is better. Now, ignoring for a moment how poorly that gamble has paid off for myself and others, it brings up an interesting question.

Lets say you're in your late 30s or early 40s. Company "A" calls, but you have yet to receive a call from company "B" or "C"? What do you do? Say, no thanks and gamble that B or C is going to call? And if they call that you will be successful at the interview?

Or not even apply to company A? If not, for how long? You're not getting any younger. If the prom queen won't dance with you, then how about the pretty girl in the corner? What happens when 11pm rolls around and the only girl left without a dance partner is one that you would rather not dance with?

These are all hypothetical questions just to get us all thinking. Its EASY to have a preference for which airline we might ultimately have the opportunity to fly. But at the end of the day, its rare to have such a choice -- and even more rare for the call to come from 2 or more airlines within such a short period of time that you are able to interview at both and select one over the other.

I'd argue that most of us dance with the first girl who offers and then, if there is time, changes dance partners later.

I'd also argue that you don't have a decision to make until a job offer has been made. So if you THINK that you MIGHT want to dance with that girl, you may as well apply. You can always say no later. Just make sure that you could be happy with her for the rest of your career if the prom queen never calls.

There's your post filled with mixed metaphors for the day.

 

[labatt]

Go ugly early. Applies to most life lessons and scenarios.

 

[General Lee]

Furloughed again,

Nice post. Sure, apply to all, go with the first one that hires you. But, only one requires you to pay for a type rating IF you don't have one.

My point on these threads is to show there is a difference between airlines. Some have huge retirements, some have a lot less. Some have infighting that may create a bad environment for years. Some have different types of flying available, and some stay on one type of plane for the rest of your career (until a merger that may or may not happen). There are some airlines that have bases that are more preferable, or bases that may want to be avoided. All of that is important when looking for "the last airline you will hopefully ever work for."

If you are in your early 40s, joining an airline with fewer upcoming retirements may not be a good idea. Joining an airline with 5000 or more retirements scheduled (the big 3 are examples) may give that older pilot the chance to get a left seat, or a younger guy/gal may have an unbelievable career with great variety in planes and trip types.

All of those things must be looked at, and not every airline can give someone that many choices. Thanks to Consolidation and bag/change fees, the big 3 have turned into profit machines, and that means more stability too. That's yet another point prospective pilots need to look at too.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[FurloughedAgain]

No argument there Gen Lee. My post was more to justify my own poor decisions over a twenty year career thus far. Gives me an excuse to say, "i just went to whichever airline offered me a job at the time. And when a better one came along, I took that one too".

I stared at my phone and willed it to ring as hard as I could, but Delta never called. nor did United or American. Nomatter how much networking I did or how long I kept my application updated, they didn't call. If they would have, who knows...

So when somebody did call and I was on the wrong side of 40 with a type rating in pocket... Well, what would you have done?

Not to add yet another metaphor, but it's kind of like baseball. Not every player gets to the big leagues. Some are going to have to be satisfied playing for the farm leagues. (Not that SW is the farm leagues by any means... It's not a perfect analogy)

 

[SWA Bubba]

Ha Ha this is like herding cats. Even a simpleton like yourself should be able to comprehend it. You got hired by Southwest, conditionally. The condition was that you obtain a type on a B737, as you were not qualified. You paid for your training on the 737 to obtain the said job. I'm not saying I disagree, hell I would have done it too. You recouped all your monies right away, I get it. For you not to see the irony of you calling someone else out on the PFT issue is disingenuous at best, and it makes you look rather vapid.

Using the same rational that SWA-bashers provide in their insults, everybody in this industry has also "paid for training." All you guys here. Every...Single...Pilot.

The chief complaint (or rationalization, that is) in calling Southwest "PFT," is said to be that we "shouldn't have to have our own type rating, because the company should provide it," or "it's not required by the FAA for the job." Okay, fine, let's look at that...

When you apply at any major airline that you want to work for, you look at their minimums page, and ensure you have them met. You do what you need to do. Southwest just required higher standards for entry. And until just recently, every airline required more ratings than the FAA did. You only needed a commercial license to be a new-hire FO flying for a major-- no ATP, and no type rating required. However, you had to get whatever your prospective employer said was his minimums, in ratings, hours, and education. And damn near every one of them required you to buy your own ATP, on your own dime, when it wasn't required by the FAA for the job you got hired for. So you guys all did the exact same thing.

Personally, I came out of the military, so I bought an ATP rating and a type rating in order to satisfy Southwest's requirements. If I wanted to work for USAir or Northwest, or whatever, I would have only had to have bought the ATP rating. So, tell me guys, seriously--what's the difference? The answer is, not a damn thing. Neither the ATP nor the type rating was required by the FAA of a newhire, which is SWA-hater's chief argument. Why didn't SWA just give its pilots a type rating when they upgraded and actually needed it to be legal? Well, the same reason the other airlines didn't just give you an ATP along with your type rating when you upgraded and actually needed it. I'm guessing it was individual airlines' ideas for minimum competency and motivation.

So when all you guys say that Southwest is "PFT," you're really saying that you're PFT as well,... just not quite as much. That's like a homophobe deriding someone for taking it in the a$$, and then when it's pointed out that he does the same thing, his response is, "well, -I- don't let him put it in as far." Yeah, that's a great argument.

Trust me, there's a world of difference between actually paying your employer for the right to fly his airplane for him, and your chosen airline requiring one more (not-legally-required) rating than the other airlines requirements for (not-legally-required) pilot ratings.

But I'm sure pointing out you other PFT-er's raging hypocrisy won't stop anyone here on FI. But hell, seriously, if that's the worst insult you can come up with for me as a Southwest pilot, then I must be doing alright.

Bubba