Southwest - WHY no assigned seats?

[FearlessFreep]

You have to love those cattle calls. It's why I sometimes call WN, Moo airlines. It is really quite entertaining to see how we all degenerate to our baser instincts when given the free for all loading process, with pushing, shoving and elbows in the ribs in the competition for the precious overhead bin space. Check out the frenetic, hostile, environment at the WN terminal area to the much more relaxed atmosphere at the other carriers, and this is inspite of the increased security measures.

WN is to flying as McDonalds is to food. Sometimes you just get stuck eating the fast food. And just as fast food can cost just about the same amount as a regular restuarant you get the same with the choice with some of the other "LCC's".

Right now WN serves alot more destinations then the other carriers. That makes them the 400 pound gorilla in the field.

WN is cheap, though it does come with restrictions. I bought tickets OAK - LAX, $29.00 each way. They are loaded with restrictions though; no refunds, changes, exchanges, etc. But really, you would probaby spend more money hitch hiking than the ticket price, so you can't complain. For that privelege you have to pay the penance of the cattle call, the filthy aircraft and the wonderful company of the other hitch hikers your flying with.

I will not go into all the complaints, because even the other major airlines are not doing well, cutting back services. The morale is very low and is very evident.

Overall I hope that all the airlines survive. I still think that there is a market for them all. I tip my hat to those that work at WN. They have a hard job, work very hard, and it is probably not the picnic that they might like to portray. They are very open with the jumpseats and go out of their way to treat crewmembers with respect and dignity. Matter of fact I think that as a jumpseater I have been treated better than as a paying customer.

To the poolies that post here in staunch defense to your future employer; Please realize that you don't really know what it is like to actually work for WN. I am sure that you will all find out soon enough. Posting your assumptions and speculations of just what the inner workings and machinations of a company that you are not currently employed with is inappropriate and farcical in nature. It's akin to telling people how to play baseball when you have never seen the game played.

 

[boeingav8r]

Southwest has a niche. They focus on point A to point b casually, safely and quickly. Their boarding procedure is part of why they're hardly ever late. It's obvious that it works for SWA because they're making money. Me personally, I have rarely purchased a ticket...I've always jumpseated or nonreved, so all my life I've just been "lucky" to even get ON the plane, much less fuss over a middle seat or when I get to board. I think that whole seating anxiety think you mentioned is just the nature of airline travel. If passengers want assigned seats a month prior to the flight, pay the extra $$ and go on AA?

 

[corndog]

I hate to break the news to you guys and gals but assigned seating does not remove the middle seats from the aircraft. And if I am one of the last guys who must take a middle seat I want to choose which one I'm in instead of being assigned seat 18-B with Bubba in 18-A and his 300lb boyfriend in 18-C.

Corndog

 

[dgs]

From the jetBlue perspective

We have assigned seating, but it does come at a cost in turn time. Boarding takes about 30 minutes for 162 people and the occasional seat duplication does add complication. I'll admit there are times I wish we could just throw everybody in the nearest seat and push. However, our leadership believes that providing assigned seats is an important part of providing a quality flying experience. Hence our turn times allow for slightly longer boarding times than a 737 with 137 in open seating. We increase our aircraft utilization and profitability by flying the aircraft during the middle of the night--something I haven't seen on SWA's schedule.

I've flown SWA a lot over the years and I didn't have a problem with the open seating for the short hauls. Short hauls also require quicker turns to be more productive. I thought I read a company statement a while back that said even with the new procedures, they were not interested in changing the cattle call boarding process because it is part of their culture. (I guess that's part of being a Texas-based company! ) While reserved seating may make sense on longer hauls, having different boarding standards creates a level of complexity that is probably unnecessary.

There have been lots of studies conducted on the fastest way to board aircraft. If I recall correctly, open seating was second only to loading windows, then middles, and then aisle seats. Since that system would probably be overly complicated, I expect SWA will stick with the open seating policy in the interest of minimizing turn times and operating expenses.

 

[boeingav8r]

No offense to heavyset and especially corndog...you guys have tons of flight time and have prolly forgotten more about aviation that I know, but, I don't understand why you guys are so bitter about the middle seat. It's just not the middle seat that cramped in an airplane, it's almost everything that's cramped inside an airplane. A 737 is large compared to being in a lear cockpit. In all due respect, after 27000 hours, one should understand that sometimes when flying on airlines like Southwest, you may get stuck with the middle seat. Sure its no picnic, but the alternative is driving. Do you want to drive 4-5 hours to ABQ from DAL, or take a 90 minute Southwest flight where you may have to sit in the middle seat for awhile?

How do discussions like this one and that stupid "is it unprofessional to wear a pilot hat" thread even get started in the first place. Our country is at war and thousands of qualified crewmembers are furloughed. How are some of the pilots on this message board able to cry and whine about wearing their uniform hats and the boarding/seating policy on SWA? I will gladly have your airline hat permanently attached to my head and commute to and from work twice a week in the middle seat next to Bubba, just for the chance to have an airline career again.

 

[Heavy Set]

No MIDDLE SEAT issue...

I am not specifically concerned about the middle seat per se. In fact, I found an asile seat way in the back on my flight on Sunday. What disturbed me was the continuing mad scramble for seats and the resulting anxiety - "I've got to find a seat.... ahhhhhh.... that one is taken?....how about that one?" etc. etc. etc. Not a fun experience - seriously, it takes away from the great Southwest service....

My main point in this thread is that Southwest should CONSIDER changing its unassigned seat policy now that other things have changed (now paper confirmation passes) and other aggressive LCCs offer very competitive products. It is to Southwest's benefit to consider this - I don't care if its model has been successful for 600 years. Things change - flexible companies should be able to adapt to changing conditions. I am not suggesting that Southwest change everything - just ONE ASPECT...

Just because you guys don't have a problem with open seating does NOT mean that other passengers don't. If I were a business passenger who wanted to spend extra time with a customer and not worry about showing up at the airport early enough to be placed in the "B" section of boarding priority, then I would not appreciate open seating as much. You should have seen the negative expressions on the business passengers behind me - I felt bad for them. Multiply that scene by 1,000 per day and it is not a pretty picture.

I am not trying to be disrespectful. I have made my points. Just constructive feedback. I hope Herb and others will consider a change... Southwest is the last major to offer unassigned seats - I hope it will consider this change and improve its product - to everyone's benefit...

xXpress1,

Does Southwest offer Zoloft with its peanuts? I would probably take a few next time...


Cheers

 

[flyingitalian]

Heavy Set,

Sorry you had a bad experience on SWA. Sounds like you wont come back until we assign seats. Personally I dont think it will happen. SWAs success is based on simplicity. The plastic boarding cards were done away with because of a TSA requirement to have a passengers name printed on the card. Then other changes were made because we were making our customers wait in line three times before they boarded a single flight. Further changes will be made (I hope soon) so we can get our connecting customers all boarding passes at the same time instead of making them wait in line every time they change airplanes.

Ive worked for another major airline and I can tell you SWA turns an airplane like no other. Our ramp workers are fantastic. I have never waited for ramp personel to marshal us into a spot, or a jet way driver to be ready to accept us. Our flight attendants do not want to check bags because they know it sucks and they make every effort to find room for each carry on to the point of going to a bin and taking out a small bag and telling the customer to put it under the seat in front of them. Quite a sight.

New carriers have the advantage of not dragging 30 years of history forward with them. We have the advanatge of frequency, reliability and flexibility.

While JetBlue has a fantastic product they have 36 airplanes and dont have the frequency that SWA does. Airtran is losing money so is ATA. Song in unproven and IMHO the same story, drive the low costs out of business and then raise the fares.

If the seat anxiety is a showstopper SWA just might not be for you.

 

[flx757]

Airtran is losing money so is ATA.

Better check your facts on that one. AirTran was profitable for the year 2002 ($10.7M), and will post higher than forecast profits for the 1Q 2003.

 

[canyonblue]

I have never waited for ramp personel to marshal us into a spot, or a jet way driver to be ready to accept us.

This still blows me away as I have waited only once for a jetway operator in a year now(we were 20 mins early) Always there!. Ramp personal actually run to marshall a plane in. At a former airline the only time you saw the ramp guys run was whe the employee bus pulled up.

vx9.tc

I've flown those Friday night BUR-LAS and know why you take the middle seat Another good reason to have "choose your own seat"!!

 

[sfomarc]

Keep in mind we have operated since day one with no assigned seats. Price as it was stated is king. Now if you are going to fly from point a to point b and the difference between fares is more than $500.00 and you, not your company is paying for it, which one are you going to choose? Exactly, $$$. Well thats how it has been for many many years.

Now new LCC's have showed up and are offering something different at a comparable price. Which one are you going to take? I for one will give them a try. I would bet that management at SWA are montoring that. If they succeed long term we will most likely have to make some changes, ie assigned seats, TV. If they fail then I would bet things will remain the same.

Someone stated that when we get a first class he will give us a try. Well I too flew for corporate and was a vendor for EJA so I can bet who ever made that statement is not paying for their own tickets.

 

[flyingitalian]

Better check your facts on that one. AirTran was profitable for the year 2002 ($10.7M), and will post higher than forecast profits for the 1Q 2003.

I stand corrected.


Airtran Profit picture.
Net income for the full-year 2002 was $10.7 million or $0.15 per diluted share compared to a profit of $21.7 million for 2001 before non-recurring adjustments

 

[MLBWINGBORN]

One very vocal person that has had a bad personal experience is not and does not show a trend..

While I am sorry to ever hear of anyone having a bad experience with us,I have to wonder sometimes about the traveling publics logic..

We have been doing business as an air carrier for 31 years the same way as we did when we started as far as not having both assigned seating and first class service..Everybody knows we dont have meal service and only serve "dry"snacks and peanuts..

Yet every day we have people getting on the planes asking about their free upgrade to first class as well as meal service or perhapes show up 3 minutes prior to push and are ticked about not having a seat near a window..

If these same folks tried to show up three minutes prior to push at most other airlines they would get a door slammed in the face..

The reasons we do things the way we do them is because they work and for the vast majority of the time our customers like it that way..
If anyone ever has a bad travel experience on OUR airline due to one of our employess providing less than the very best possible service then we have failed our customers and we should be made aware of the facts and i can assure you it would be looked into..

But..If we fail to meet anyones unreasonable needs or idea of what our airline should be..I can only say that you are free to consider any one of several options in order to meet your travel needs..
Even then at that late point we would be sad to see you go..We just cant be everyones idea of what an airline should be and survive..

And lastly..

I do have to ask what purpose this post is serving..?
Why post this sort of complaint in an open forum and not direct it to the proper folks in Customer Service?

Based on the number of replys to input i dare say that this poster wont be happy until the world is made in his image..

SWA may or may not one day have assigned seating..It will only happen when its the right thing to do for the company and its passengers..

31 years and counting...We gotta be doing something right..

Mike

 

[General Lee]

MLBWINGBORN,

I know that Southwest has operated the same way for 30 years. And look, you've been profitable throughout---which is great. Your product is the same everyday, and people know what to expect, which is good service at a low price. Now new entrants like Jetblue come in and offer the same Low Cost Passenger a new twist---some entertainment.(Not like your Flt Attendants singing their announcements---which I thought was funny) Song will try to up the ante---with live TV and make your own music lists. Will it work? It might. But these airlines are adding more to the mix than just low fares. Southwest might want to think about giving some extra passenger comforts on those longer flights---because the cheery flight attendant service is great until about Denver eastbound, then they want to watch Letterman.
Assigned seats might just be a start.

Hey, Sierra Hotel---I didn't threaten anyone---ah yeah!!!! (Although Song will kick everyone elses' ass!!) OOOOPS!! There I go again.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Tailwheel]

Heavy Set
You need to understand where Southwest came from to understand why they do things the way they do. Please read Thomas Petzinger's "Hard Landing" or the classic "Nuts" and you'll see.

Believe me, everything Southwest does is meticulously and methodically thought out, right down to the way they board an airplane. Believe me, they've had 32 years to figure out how to do business in their, classic unique style.

You are now free to do some research. I challenge you!

(those books really are great)

Cheers!

 

[Heavy Set]

I appreciate all of the professional replies - although some were a bit defensive in nature. And of course, General Lee is always entertaining... In any case, I have no ulterior motives here - I was just expressing my opinion and sharing my thoughts about how to improve a product - just constructive feedback. I realize Southwest has operated this way for eons - and it may not want to change. As a paying passenger, I felt my feelings were shared by many others.

It is true that Southwest is the last of the carriers to offer unassigned seats - a fact. It is true that some (maybe not all) passengers are annoyed with this arrangement and put up with it because of the cheap fares and high frequency service. Knowing that some aspects of Southwest travel had changed (i.e., paper confirmation tickets vs. previous plastic cards), I felt it COULD be an appropriate time to suggest a change that might work given the changing circumstances. I was not trying to be disruptive. I merely pointed out a helpful suggestion - or it least I thought I was being helpful.

It is my humble opinion that assigned seats would benefit Southwest and its passengers. I understand this might impact turnaround times and the all-critical flight schedule. I hope smart, logistical types could figure out a way to both preserve "competitive" turnaround times and provide this desired product feature. I assure you, Southwest would benefit and the "cattle car" stigma would disappear FOREVER...

Thank you for indulging me.

 

[MLBWINGBORN]

Other than this board, whom else have you made aware of your experiences?

Again...If you have a concern im sure it will be considered..

If the fine folks in Dallas see a genuine need to change the boarding process that will benefit both the company as well as our passengers I have no doubt they will move heaven and earth to make it happen..

Although its rumored that alot of "folks" read this board...I very seriously doubt that you will get very far with your concerns unless you take it to the people that can do something about it..

SO..write a letter and follow it up with a phone call...Give the people that get paid to listen a chance to do their jobs..

Going on and on like this in an open forum does nothing more than reduce your arguments to the level of flame bait..

Mike

 

[Anaconda]

a few months back colleen wrote an article in the swa inflight magazine about the assigned seating subject. not sure if you can do a search for it on their site or not, but in a nutshell it all came down to $$$ in her justification for why they do what they do. i'm sure that's the response you would get if you wrote or called customer svc...

 

[madjack]

To quote from an Associated Press Article in yesterday's paper titled "Airlines' bad year was a good one for customers":

"Southwest, the only major airline that made a profit last year, also got better. The airline consistently has the lowest complaint rate - .33 per 100,000 passengers - compared with an industry rate of 1.22."

 

[tredding@swa]

yea baby....

nuff said..... any more arguments???

Row, row, row yer boat....

Tred

 

[trainerjet]

See my previous post for further explanation, but if your expectations are low, there is very little to be disappointed with and therefore, nothing to complain about.

 

[Heavy Set]

Not "You Get What You Pay For"

Last time... This is not a "you get what you pay for" situation because AirTran and Jetblue are dirt cheap too yet provide better customer experiences... I would bet money that most customers would choose Jetblue vs. Southwest in a comparison test (one-way on each) on a New York to Florida route. Southwest should consider changing its policy - even if it adds 5-10 minutes to their turnaround times - not much considering all of the schedule padding that we know happens... Jetblue always seems to load passengers quickly - I have never been late on a Jetblue departure.

Good luck!

 

[Snoopy58]

How do they do the weight & balance?

The ops agents can control where all the bags & cargo go in the holds (forward & aft), so they have a lot of control of the CG that way. Generally, unless you're close to a limit, it matters not; with a really full airplane, the pax will be evenly distributed since there won't be many empty seats (& since they'll all be middle ones, fairly evenly distributed at that); on a mostly empty flight, it isn't all that much weight that you're worried about. On the rare case when you ARE close to a limit, the ops agent uses "the loading rule" (that's what the W&B form calls it), which requires half the pax to sit in the front half of the jet (not usually a difficult thing -- people want to be "first one off" most of the time anyway). The flight attendants would ensure that this happens, if needbe.

In general, though, when you consider the empty weight of a 737 & the amount of control you get putting bags/cargo where you want it, it would take some doing to get too much out of CG with just pax alone. If you were to get in trouble that way, it's probably a case of the "estimated" pax weights being off -- that would concern me more than where they sit.

Somewhat like the other transport catagory aircraft I've flown... you COULD get out of CG in a herk, but it generally took a lot of doing. 98% of the time, any rational load plan would be fine, and you would go over gross long before you'd go out of CG. By the time you had enough weight to move the CG very far, you pretty well HAD to have it uniformly distributed (not enough room to do otherwise), which helped the CG situation. Hauling heavy equipment, you needed to have it tied down in the right spot, but the center of mass of 20k of equipment can vary lot more in a fore-aft direction than the center of mass of 100 people!

Hope that helps!