Southwest - WHY no assigned seats?

[Yahtzee]

Just letting off some steam... I hope you guys at Southwest can make some "high placed" suggestions because I saw first-hand today that higher-yield business travelers don't appreciate the cattle-car routine... Southwest is the last airline without assigned seating - it is probably time for a change (and it likely won't cost too much given the existing infrastructure)...

Heavy Set,

Please tell me you don't expect to get a Ruth Chris steak at Ryan's prices.

SWA does business their way for a reason: It works for them. IMHO, SWA isn't trying to be everything for everyone. They are simply trying to provide a good product at a fair price. Some folks don't like SWA and never will. However, you have some valid points and I'm sure some of the SWA guys here will forward them up the chain.

But please reread SWA/FO comments: "Funny...some people on this board say they don't want to be like a LCC or SWA for that matter...but do they ever think we don't want to be like them?"

I think SWA/FO hit the nail on the head.

Yahtz

 

[trainerjet]

People fly Southwest for the same reason that people eat at McDonald's, even though the food is crap, and they know before they order that the food is crap. Even though across the street, you can pay the same money and get food that, while maybe not gormet, is certainly less crappy. They know if they go to McDonald's, they will get exactly what they expect to get on a consistent basis, even if it is consistently bad.

They have been conditioned over the last 30+ years to accept this as "value". A new company could start today, offering the EXACT same product at the exact same price, but people would reject it automatically as inferior. They would not accept the "cattle-car" boarding procedures at any company except Southwest...guaranteed. Yet, they gleefully arrive at the airport hours before departure to be among the first in line to jump at the chance to participate in it at Southwest. Just as they wait in the drive-thru behind 16 cars at McDonald's for the opportunity to fork over their money for a Big Mac and fries.

 

[Falconjet]

Pre-boarding with kids

My wife flew to PHX fro LIT last month with our 6 and 8 year old kids and weren't allowed to pre-board. Evidently you have to have very young kids to pre-board, 3 and under or something. So bringing the kids along may not help.

 

[Heavy Set]

Yahtzee,

It is clear that Southwest has done well with its business model. I am simply suggesting that the unassigned seat deal needs to be reviewed in light of the fact that all other LCCs (including Song) offer assigned seats - and the majority of passengers probably prefer to have assigned seats. Now that the plastic boarding passes are gone - and replaced with regular paper tickets, Southwest should consider this a great time to remove the "cattle car" stigma. That is all I am suggesting...

Your point about Ruth Chris Steaks is not valid. Jetblue offers cheap tickets too with few frills and caters better to business travelers who don't want to worry about last-minute seat assignements... As I said earlier - this is not a "you get what you pay for" situation because both Airtran and Jetblue are AS CHEAP and yet offer seat assignments - that's all I care about at this point..............

Just trying to make some helpful suggestions.... I consider this to be a competitive disadvantage for Southwest when they compete head-to-head with Airtran, Jetblue or Song at comparable prices.... Nobody likes to have "seat anxiety" - and I will avoid Southwest as a PAX (although I'd love to sit up front if I had the chance) if I have a choice of another LCC until this is fixed - no disrespect to the fine Southwest professionals on this board.... I don't think it would take much to fix - some new website software and a few extra input keys on the check-in computers (the paper confirmation tickets already exist) - that would probably reduce some of the customer frustration...


Just my 2 cents.

 

[Yahtzee]

Heavy Set,

In retrospect, I should have let the coffee kick in before typing the post. I regret placing it as I was still trying to wake up from last night's vampire shift.

If you hadn't have already replied, I would have deleted the post. But, I'm accountable for my mistake (making a post while groggy) and so it stands.

My apology to you if you feel I was in any way making a personal attack on you or the "high class business travelers". I think your points will certainly get reviewed by SWA and hope you have more positive experience in the future.

You offered some valid constructive criticism that can only help SWA and for that you are to be commended.

Peace

Yahtz

 

[HoursHore]

[QUOTE
Today I had the very UNFORTUNATE experience of being a PAX on Southwest. [/QUOTE]

Were you in Russia? Or Iraq? Did you not have a choice of carriers?

Personally I avoid SWA for anything involving more than one leg or multiple ac. Haven't been able to shake the sting of a trip to Tahoe from midway I took in college. I think we stopped at STL, MCI, PHX, and then tahoe, took forever and had to swap aircraft a few times, which means I had to stand in line again. Since I was in college and its all I could afford, I gladly put up with it. I since have been able to afford to ride on the hub and spoke carriers, and before 9/11 they would get me there much faster, however, since they cut back on their schedules, more often then not I have a 2-3 hour layover at the hub.
But I have since flown SWA on a couple one leggers, and have been very impressed. My impression of SWA's on time perfomance is outstanding. But it is easy to excel when my main other airline choice is UAL, which is going for some kind of record when I fly them for never leaving on time. I am speaking has a customer here, and not as someone trying to break into the airline gig.

Of course I would still love to work for SWA no matter how many legs a day I had to fly.

 

[chase]

Heavyset

Heavyset,

I flew twice on AA this weekend. On both flights delays were incurred when the assigned seating system went tits up. In one situation the passengers & FAs stood around in the middle of the aircraft while a discussion ensued about who's seat was it anyway. After some strong arm tactics ensued the situation was resolved but not before we pushed late.

Same situation on the 2nd flight when a group of passengers (approximately 30 kids) were arranging their own seat assignments & confusing everyone. It wasn't until the FAs finally (& very reluctantly) got involved but again after the push time.
With SWA when large groups are booked together we pre-board them often times for them to sit together (not necessarily at the front of the aircraft though) without impacting the flow of everyone else.

As for overhead space, many of the bins on the AA flights had jackets or things that could be placed under the seats. Not once did the FAs request that passengers refrain from placing anything in the overhead bins except for suitcases or items that wouldn't fit under the seat on the PA system....this is done on a routine basis by our FAs when they are told by the ops agent the plane is going to be full. Near the end the FAs in the rear told the front to start checking bags but way too late...we had to take bags back up front which added to the late push.

All of these scenarios have happened on SWA while I've been flying & I'm sure every major carrier. No system is flawless yet each of the systems AA & SWA employs have their advantages & disadvantages & can be either a goat-rope or flawless depending on the TYPE & ATTITUDE of the passengers boarding, along with the willingness of the FAs & ops agents to detect problems before they get out of hand.

If price is a major concern, SWA/JB/AT is probably the way to go. If reserve seating is that important then only the later two & other major carriers are your cup of tea. We're not an airline for everyone but the customers who do fly us regularly do so for some pretty sound reasons (2nd largest domestic carrier behind DAL).

While I know Colleen & the folks at HHQ listen to everyone comment/complaint, they do respond favorably to constructive comments on suggestions of improvements for customer service. It's been visited before but feel free to bring it up again. Otherwise enjoy your travels & hopefully SWA will get the chance to prove ourselves to you again sometime. Cheers,

 

[General Lee]

"Were you in Russia? Or Iraq? Did you not have a choice of carriers?"----quote from above

Those really are stupid questions. Sometimes the only choices are Southwest and maybe one other carrier, or maybe Greyhound. Maybe this was his first experience with Southwest, and it didn't sound like a good one. He brought up some good points---like "If they already have paper tickets, then why can't they assign a seat?" That makes sense, and other LCC's are doing it right now. Yes, price is king right now---but you have to conform to your customers' needs. Overall, I have had good experiences with Southwest, and they have been very nice to me on the jumpseat (pre-9-11) and have given me seats in the back. Everytime I do ride on them---I do see differences with my own carrier---and sometimes question why they do certain things. But, overall they run a great airline, have nice and young people working the back, and have a consistant product---which some people love. I have not ridden on them for flights over 1 or 2 hours, so I do not know what it would be like to fly a transcon with them---like PVD--PHX or BWI--LAX. Most pax who need entertainment will bring their own DVD players or have gameboys---so that might not mean much. I do know that SONG will try to add different types of entertainment---live TV for Free, along with games, and pay-per view movies, along with your own CD choice list--giving you the ability to create 12 songs of your own to listen to. Eventually they will fly transcons, and maybe compete with SW---but at different airports--not BWI etc. If SONG's prices are close to SW's, it will be interesting to see who wins the customers over. Song's seat per mile costs will be coming down soon---thanks to some pay cuts from the Delta pilots---and then we will see.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Heavy Set]

It's all about IMPROVING the product...

Chase,

My intention was to offer constructive advice to improve the Southwest product - I hate unassigned seats and the resulting "seat anxiety," and as a paying passenger I should be able to express my opinion.

Have you ever flown Jetblue? How about AirTran recently? You would know that Jetblue offers a much better customer experience. Leather seats, cool 24-channel live TV, big and wide bins in the Airbus and assigned seats that you can pick yourself on the Internet - very appealing product. Sure, most people fly Southwest for the cheap tickets. Most people also shop at Wal-Mart for the cheap beer and cases of fattening candy.

Given that Southwest has the existing infrastructure (a great website and paper confirmation tickets) and no plastic boarding passes any longer, the change to assigned seats should be a no-brainer. Do you like the fact that your airline is referred to as the "Cattle-Car" airline? I wouldn't. Make the change and the stigma disappears and passengers will be happy not to deal with "seat anxiety" again.

I flew Southwest this past weekend because my other choices were out of seats - I did not seek out Southwest. Yes, it helped that the tickets were not too expensive, but I looked elsewhere first because of past negative experiences. After this experience, I will absolutely avoid Southwest as a PAYING PASSENGER if at all possible until a change is made - no disrespect to the Southwest pilots on this forum.

Southwest is the only airline in the country with unassigned seats. That, in my mind, is a competitive DISADVANTAGE. Someone should look into it. I am offering constructive feedback - that is all.... Evolution is a good thing sometimes...

Cheers

 

[Sierra-Hotel]

Heavy Set,

Thanks for your constructive comments and I hope you do shoot off a email to Customer Relations as I know for fact that they LUV customer feeback. Saying that, you must realize that Southwest will not be all things to all people. I know alot of people (including me) that enjoy having to pick my own seat. I was a CSA and Ops Guy at WN for almost 3 years and I heard very little complaints on the open seating issue,and until it becomes that much of an issue....I really don't see them changing it. However I do hope you fly SWA again and let us try and make up for your previous flights!

General Lee,

When you address any topic that concerns JetBlue,Southwest,Airtran or any other LCC, you always seem to end your post with some kind of threat. That's really immature and not even about the topic at hand. But then again people who feel threatened make idle threats to make it seem that they are okay. I hope you find some peace in the future!

 

[General Lee]

Sierra Hotel,

Idle threats? My a$$. What are you talking about? You seem to think that all of the legacy carriers have no clue what they are doing, and that you are astride a mighty horse called Southwest. Gimme a break. Delta has had it's ups and it's downs, and right now they are in a funk. I was just stating my confidence that we will make the necessary changes to compete on your Low Fare level, and that we might have a product that customers will enjoy. You are the one that seems defensive---I just stated that I think it will be a good test of customer likes and dislikes. We shall see what happens, and in the mean time------relax!!! (And watch out for those lime green 757's----oh wait--there was another threat---oooops--Sierra Hotel was right!!!)

Bye Bye-----General Lee

 

[Tailwheel]

HeavySet:

Here is Herb Kelleher's business model that has led to over 30 years of continued and sustained profitability and the statistically safest airline in the world.....

"Southwest is a low fare, point to point, short-haul, high frequency, non-interlining, satellite operating, on-time, Customer-caring, fiscally conservative, simple airline" -HK

They also have the fewest customer complaints of ANY other airline.

What they are is what they are. Southwest will never be like "all the other airlines" so it's impossible to compare. In fact, they pride themselves on NOT being like the others!!!

Honestly, your complaints seem frivilious. You, of all people, being in the industry should know how Southwest operates. Besides, your lack of overhead space "heartache" could have happened anywhere.

Better luck next time.

 

[vx9.tc]

Forgive me if someone already mentioned the answer to the original question, but...
IMHO we board the way we do because the "cattle car" boarding process encourages a behavior that SWA desires. That is, people ready and willing to board when we say go, so they can get something they desire.
Now look at it from an assigned seat point of view. If I've got an assigned seat no problem, I take my time 30 mins prior to boarding getting another beer. Hit the bathroom then grab a paper and stroll on over to the boarding area. I don't really enjoy all the crowded aisles as people put there bags up so I wait for the final boarding call before making my way to the jetway. No hurry, I've got an assigned seat. This type of behavior may be a bit exaggerated to make a point. But, you've got to admit there is a different mindset with an assigned seat. I'm sure there are many other reasons for no assigned seats, but I believe this is the big daddy.

Now a few comments about the middle seats. They are definitely the most comfortable wrt seat cushions (least used). Look at the positive times you got a "good" middle seat, and forget the bad experiences. Sometimes I'll fly cross-country just to non-rev the BUR-LAS on Fridays and LAS-BUR on Sundays to experience some of the best middle seats we have to offer. Can anyone vouch for me here?

 

[N1atEcon]

seats again

Ok I know you will think my comments are biased because I work for SWA. I will give some examples of why I choose to fly on SWA in the past. Now granted some people do not like our boarding process. and since we live in a free country they have many choices i always chose SWA when i had a say in it here is why. I used to work for Executive Jet out of CMH. While i was there i heard countless (and i mean countless) stories of guys who said "if it wasn't for SWA getting me to work i would have to quit or move." I also heard countless stories of all the other majors whom wouldn't help out a fractional guy trying to get to work or get home. I never once had to use this gift but for those who did i know they said "thank god for the great pilots at SWA." So i tried to give a little back by requesting SW flights. Next, a few reasons why i flew on SWA. In CMH you have several choices of carriers to get home on. The majority of the time I flew home i had problem on other carriers . Twa would have weather in ST Loui. "im sorry sir but you missed your connection." United, Oh god that work action deal in 2000 was a mess. Cancelled flights ect. America WEST and the "mechanicals/now cancelled" yikes! US Air, lets see i got yelled at by a flight attendant for asking for a klenex. For her benefit I was in uniform and i think she thought i was jumpseating. ha ha Little did she know my ticket was bought that a.m. for $1129.00. Another FA did apologize for her rudness. NWA was actually pretty good and so was Delta. But to go LAS from CMH the SWA flights were always on time. As for middle seats. It's all odds. just like with assigned seating. You don't always get a window. Unless you plan way ahead and i dont. some folks love SWA some don't. Thank god we live in America and we can make our own choice.

 

[Heavy Set]

Do you refer to all paying PAX as frivilous?

I wonder what percentage of TOTAL COMPLAINTS relate to seating issues? Probably a high percentage... Everything else seems to work well - cheap fares, nice service, high frequency, etc. Why not try to fix one of the glowing problems (lack of assigned seats)? What, Southwest is incapable of change or too stuck in its ways? I don't think so... What about using industry best practices? Wouldn't that help Southwest's competitive position vs. the aggressive upstart LCCs that are winning passenger market share? Am I off base here?

Tailwheel,

People used to think that Eastern and Pan Am had great "models" too. I am less concerned about an airline's past as I am about its future... My complaints are not frivilous - as you suggest. My complaints echoed those of the business passengers behind me who were astonished that they had to SCRAMBLE for seats. Do you think they thought their concerns were frivilous? Do you cater to customers or do you stick to your old-school "my way or the highway" attitude? I know how Southwest operates - and I don't like ONE ASPECT - the unassigned seats...

Quit arguing the problem - just fix it. It is in Southwest's best interest to LISTEN to paying customers who might have more options in the future. Get it? I can't wait for AirTran, JetBlue, ATA or Song to bolster their West Coast presence so that low-fare passengers have more choices...

I am not trying to be threatening or disrespectful - I am trying to offer some good feedback that might IMPROVE Southwest's product offer... Southwest has proven that it can change for the better - now passengers no longer have to hang on to plastic boarding cards. Instead, regular paper tickets with large "A", "B" or "C" printed on them are issued - now just include a seat assignment and we will all be happier.....

Please don't waste time arguing - just fix it and continue your kick a$$ domination of the skies... I am just one of many (including the high-yield business passengers behind me) who would appreciate it...

Thanks