Southwest - WHY no assigned seats?

[HoursHore]

[QUOTE
Today I had the very UNFORTUNATE experience of being a PAX on Southwest. [/QUOTE]

Were you in Russia? Or Iraq? Did you not have a choice of carriers?

Personally I avoid SWA for anything involving more than one leg or multiple ac. Haven't been able to shake the sting of a trip to Tahoe from midway I took in college. I think we stopped at STL, MCI, PHX, and then tahoe, took forever and had to swap aircraft a few times, which means I had to stand in line again. Since I was in college and its all I could afford, I gladly put up with it. I since have been able to afford to ride on the hub and spoke carriers, and before 9/11 they would get me there much faster, however, since they cut back on their schedules, more often then not I have a 2-3 hour layover at the hub.
But I have since flown SWA on a couple one leggers, and have been very impressed. My impression of SWA's on time perfomance is outstanding. But it is easy to excel when my main other airline choice is UAL, which is going for some kind of record when I fly them for never leaving on time. I am speaking has a customer here, and not as someone trying to break into the airline gig.

Of course I would still love to work for SWA no matter how many legs a day I had to fly.

 

[chase]

Heavyset

Heavyset,

I flew twice on AA this weekend. On both flights delays were incurred when the assigned seating system went tits up. In one situation the passengers & FAs stood around in the middle of the aircraft while a discussion ensued about who's seat was it anyway. After some strong arm tactics ensued the situation was resolved but not before we pushed late.

Same situation on the 2nd flight when a group of passengers (approximately 30 kids) were arranging their own seat assignments & confusing everyone. It wasn't until the FAs finally (& very reluctantly) got involved but again after the push time.
With SWA when large groups are booked together we pre-board them often times for them to sit together (not necessarily at the front of the aircraft though) without impacting the flow of everyone else.

As for overhead space, many of the bins on the AA flights had jackets or things that could be placed under the seats. Not once did the FAs request that passengers refrain from placing anything in the overhead bins except for suitcases or items that wouldn't fit under the seat on the PA system....this is done on a routine basis by our FAs when they are told by the ops agent the plane is going to be full. Near the end the FAs in the rear told the front to start checking bags but way too late...we had to take bags back up front which added to the late push.

All of these scenarios have happened on SWA while I've been flying & I'm sure every major carrier. No system is flawless yet each of the systems AA & SWA employs have their advantages & disadvantages & can be either a goat-rope or flawless depending on the TYPE & ATTITUDE of the passengers boarding, along with the willingness of the FAs & ops agents to detect problems before they get out of hand.

If price is a major concern, SWA/JB/AT is probably the way to go. If reserve seating is that important then only the later two & other major carriers are your cup of tea. We're not an airline for everyone but the customers who do fly us regularly do so for some pretty sound reasons (2nd largest domestic carrier behind DAL).

While I know Colleen & the folks at HHQ listen to everyone comment/complaint, they do respond favorably to constructive comments on suggestions of improvements for customer service. It's been visited before but feel free to bring it up again. Otherwise enjoy your travels & hopefully SWA will get the chance to prove ourselves to you again sometime. Cheers,

 

[General Lee]

"Were you in Russia? Or Iraq? Did you not have a choice of carriers?"----quote from above

Those really are stupid questions. Sometimes the only choices are Southwest and maybe one other carrier, or maybe Greyhound. Maybe this was his first experience with Southwest, and it didn't sound like a good one. He brought up some good points---like "If they already have paper tickets, then why can't they assign a seat?" That makes sense, and other LCC's are doing it right now. Yes, price is king right now---but you have to conform to your customers' needs. Overall, I have had good experiences with Southwest, and they have been very nice to me on the jumpseat (pre-9-11) and have given me seats in the back. Everytime I do ride on them---I do see differences with my own carrier---and sometimes question why they do certain things. But, overall they run a great airline, have nice and young people working the back, and have a consistant product---which some people love. I have not ridden on them for flights over 1 or 2 hours, so I do not know what it would be like to fly a transcon with them---like PVD--PHX or BWI--LAX. Most pax who need entertainment will bring their own DVD players or have gameboys---so that might not mean much. I do know that SONG will try to add different types of entertainment---live TV for Free, along with games, and pay-per view movies, along with your own CD choice list--giving you the ability to create 12 songs of your own to listen to. Eventually they will fly transcons, and maybe compete with SW---but at different airports--not BWI etc. If SONG's prices are close to SW's, it will be interesting to see who wins the customers over. Song's seat per mile costs will be coming down soon---thanks to some pay cuts from the Delta pilots---and then we will see.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Heavy Set]

It's all about IMPROVING the product...

Chase,

My intention was to offer constructive advice to improve the Southwest product - I hate unassigned seats and the resulting "seat anxiety," and as a paying passenger I should be able to express my opinion.

Have you ever flown Jetblue? How about AirTran recently? You would know that Jetblue offers a much better customer experience. Leather seats, cool 24-channel live TV, big and wide bins in the Airbus and assigned seats that you can pick yourself on the Internet - very appealing product. Sure, most people fly Southwest for the cheap tickets. Most people also shop at Wal-Mart for the cheap beer and cases of fattening candy.

Given that Southwest has the existing infrastructure (a great website and paper confirmation tickets) and no plastic boarding passes any longer, the change to assigned seats should be a no-brainer. Do you like the fact that your airline is referred to as the "Cattle-Car" airline? I wouldn't. Make the change and the stigma disappears and passengers will be happy not to deal with "seat anxiety" again.

I flew Southwest this past weekend because my other choices were out of seats - I did not seek out Southwest. Yes, it helped that the tickets were not too expensive, but I looked elsewhere first because of past negative experiences. After this experience, I will absolutely avoid Southwest as a PAYING PASSENGER if at all possible until a change is made - no disrespect to the Southwest pilots on this forum.

Southwest is the only airline in the country with unassigned seats. That, in my mind, is a competitive DISADVANTAGE. Someone should look into it. I am offering constructive feedback - that is all.... Evolution is a good thing sometimes...

Cheers

 

[Sierra-Hotel]

Heavy Set,

Thanks for your constructive comments and I hope you do shoot off a email to Customer Relations as I know for fact that they LUV customer feeback. Saying that, you must realize that Southwest will not be all things to all people. I know alot of people (including me) that enjoy having to pick my own seat. I was a CSA and Ops Guy at WN for almost 3 years and I heard very little complaints on the open seating issue,and until it becomes that much of an issue....I really don't see them changing it. However I do hope you fly SWA again and let us try and make up for your previous flights!

General Lee,

When you address any topic that concerns JetBlue,Southwest,Airtran or any other LCC, you always seem to end your post with some kind of threat. That's really immature and not even about the topic at hand. But then again people who feel threatened make idle threats to make it seem that they are okay. I hope you find some peace in the future!

 

[General Lee]

Sierra Hotel,

Idle threats? My a$$. What are you talking about? You seem to think that all of the legacy carriers have no clue what they are doing, and that you are astride a mighty horse called Southwest. Gimme a break. Delta has had it's ups and it's downs, and right now they are in a funk. I was just stating my confidence that we will make the necessary changes to compete on your Low Fare level, and that we might have a product that customers will enjoy. You are the one that seems defensive---I just stated that I think it will be a good test of customer likes and dislikes. We shall see what happens, and in the mean time------relax!!! (And watch out for those lime green 757's----oh wait--there was another threat---oooops--Sierra Hotel was right!!!)

Bye Bye-----General Lee

 

[Tailwheel]

HeavySet:

Here is Herb Kelleher's business model that has led to over 30 years of continued and sustained profitability and the statistically safest airline in the world.....

"Southwest is a low fare, point to point, short-haul, high frequency, non-interlining, satellite operating, on-time, Customer-caring, fiscally conservative, simple airline" -HK

They also have the fewest customer complaints of ANY other airline.

What they are is what they are. Southwest will never be like "all the other airlines" so it's impossible to compare. In fact, they pride themselves on NOT being like the others!!!

Honestly, your complaints seem frivilious. You, of all people, being in the industry should know how Southwest operates. Besides, your lack of overhead space "heartache" could have happened anywhere.

Better luck next time.

 

[vx9.tc]

Forgive me if someone already mentioned the answer to the original question, but...
IMHO we board the way we do because the "cattle car" boarding process encourages a behavior that SWA desires. That is, people ready and willing to board when we say go, so they can get something they desire.
Now look at it from an assigned seat point of view. If I've got an assigned seat no problem, I take my time 30 mins prior to boarding getting another beer. Hit the bathroom then grab a paper and stroll on over to the boarding area. I don't really enjoy all the crowded aisles as people put there bags up so I wait for the final boarding call before making my way to the jetway. No hurry, I've got an assigned seat. This type of behavior may be a bit exaggerated to make a point. But, you've got to admit there is a different mindset with an assigned seat. I'm sure there are many other reasons for no assigned seats, but I believe this is the big daddy.

Now a few comments about the middle seats. They are definitely the most comfortable wrt seat cushions (least used). Look at the positive times you got a "good" middle seat, and forget the bad experiences. Sometimes I'll fly cross-country just to non-rev the BUR-LAS on Fridays and LAS-BUR on Sundays to experience some of the best middle seats we have to offer. Can anyone vouch for me here?

 

[N1atEcon]

seats again

Ok I know you will think my comments are biased because I work for SWA. I will give some examples of why I choose to fly on SWA in the past. Now granted some people do not like our boarding process. and since we live in a free country they have many choices i always chose SWA when i had a say in it here is why. I used to work for Executive Jet out of CMH. While i was there i heard countless (and i mean countless) stories of guys who said "if it wasn't for SWA getting me to work i would have to quit or move." I also heard countless stories of all the other majors whom wouldn't help out a fractional guy trying to get to work or get home. I never once had to use this gift but for those who did i know they said "thank god for the great pilots at SWA." So i tried to give a little back by requesting SW flights. Next, a few reasons why i flew on SWA. In CMH you have several choices of carriers to get home on. The majority of the time I flew home i had problem on other carriers . Twa would have weather in ST Loui. "im sorry sir but you missed your connection." United, Oh god that work action deal in 2000 was a mess. Cancelled flights ect. America WEST and the "mechanicals/now cancelled" yikes! US Air, lets see i got yelled at by a flight attendant for asking for a klenex. For her benefit I was in uniform and i think she thought i was jumpseating. ha ha Little did she know my ticket was bought that a.m. for $1129.00. Another FA did apologize for her rudness. NWA was actually pretty good and so was Delta. But to go LAS from CMH the SWA flights were always on time. As for middle seats. It's all odds. just like with assigned seating. You don't always get a window. Unless you plan way ahead and i dont. some folks love SWA some don't. Thank god we live in America and we can make our own choice.

 

[Heavy Set]

Do you refer to all paying PAX as frivilous?

I wonder what percentage of TOTAL COMPLAINTS relate to seating issues? Probably a high percentage... Everything else seems to work well - cheap fares, nice service, high frequency, etc. Why not try to fix one of the glowing problems (lack of assigned seats)? What, Southwest is incapable of change or too stuck in its ways? I don't think so... What about using industry best practices? Wouldn't that help Southwest's competitive position vs. the aggressive upstart LCCs that are winning passenger market share? Am I off base here?

Tailwheel,

People used to think that Eastern and Pan Am had great "models" too. I am less concerned about an airline's past as I am about its future... My complaints are not frivilous - as you suggest. My complaints echoed those of the business passengers behind me who were astonished that they had to SCRAMBLE for seats. Do you think they thought their concerns were frivilous? Do you cater to customers or do you stick to your old-school "my way or the highway" attitude? I know how Southwest operates - and I don't like ONE ASPECT - the unassigned seats...

Quit arguing the problem - just fix it. It is in Southwest's best interest to LISTEN to paying customers who might have more options in the future. Get it? I can't wait for AirTran, JetBlue, ATA or Song to bolster their West Coast presence so that low-fare passengers have more choices...

I am not trying to be threatening or disrespectful - I am trying to offer some good feedback that might IMPROVE Southwest's product offer... Southwest has proven that it can change for the better - now passengers no longer have to hang on to plastic boarding cards. Instead, regular paper tickets with large "A", "B" or "C" printed on them are issued - now just include a seat assignment and we will all be happier.....

Please don't waste time arguing - just fix it and continue your kick a$$ domination of the skies... I am just one of many (including the high-yield business passengers behind me) who would appreciate it...

Thanks

 

[FearlessFreep]

You have to love those cattle calls. It's why I sometimes call WN, Moo airlines. It is really quite entertaining to see how we all degenerate to our baser instincts when given the free for all loading process, with pushing, shoving and elbows in the ribs in the competition for the precious overhead bin space. Check out the frenetic, hostile, environment at the WN terminal area to the much more relaxed atmosphere at the other carriers, and this is inspite of the increased security measures.

WN is to flying as McDonalds is to food. Sometimes you just get stuck eating the fast food. And just as fast food can cost just about the same amount as a regular restuarant you get the same with the choice with some of the other "LCC's".

Right now WN serves alot more destinations then the other carriers. That makes them the 400 pound gorilla in the field.

WN is cheap, though it does come with restrictions. I bought tickets OAK - LAX, $29.00 each way. They are loaded with restrictions though; no refunds, changes, exchanges, etc. But really, you would probaby spend more money hitch hiking than the ticket price, so you can't complain. For that privelege you have to pay the penance of the cattle call, the filthy aircraft and the wonderful company of the other hitch hikers your flying with.

I will not go into all the complaints, because even the other major airlines are not doing well, cutting back services. The morale is very low and is very evident.

Overall I hope that all the airlines survive. I still think that there is a market for them all. I tip my hat to those that work at WN. They have a hard job, work very hard, and it is probably not the picnic that they might like to portray. They are very open with the jumpseats and go out of their way to treat crewmembers with respect and dignity. Matter of fact I think that as a jumpseater I have been treated better than as a paying customer.

To the poolies that post here in staunch defense to your future employer; Please realize that you don't really know what it is like to actually work for WN. I am sure that you will all find out soon enough. Posting your assumptions and speculations of just what the inner workings and machinations of a company that you are not currently employed with is inappropriate and farcical in nature. It's akin to telling people how to play baseball when you have never seen the game played.

 

[boeingav8r]

Southwest has a niche. They focus on point A to point b casually, safely and quickly. Their boarding procedure is part of why they're hardly ever late. It's obvious that it works for SWA because they're making money. Me personally, I have rarely purchased a ticket...I've always jumpseated or nonreved, so all my life I've just been "lucky" to even get ON the plane, much less fuss over a middle seat or when I get to board. I think that whole seating anxiety think you mentioned is just the nature of airline travel. If passengers want assigned seats a month prior to the flight, pay the extra $$ and go on AA?

 

[corndog]

I hate to break the news to you guys and gals but assigned seating does not remove the middle seats from the aircraft. And if I am one of the last guys who must take a middle seat I want to choose which one I'm in instead of being assigned seat 18-B with Bubba in 18-A and his 300lb boyfriend in 18-C.

Corndog

 

[dgs]

From the jetBlue perspective

We have assigned seating, but it does come at a cost in turn time. Boarding takes about 30 minutes for 162 people and the occasional seat duplication does add complication. I'll admit there are times I wish we could just throw everybody in the nearest seat and push. However, our leadership believes that providing assigned seats is an important part of providing a quality flying experience. Hence our turn times allow for slightly longer boarding times than a 737 with 137 in open seating. We increase our aircraft utilization and profitability by flying the aircraft during the middle of the night--something I haven't seen on SWA's schedule.

I've flown SWA a lot over the years and I didn't have a problem with the open seating for the short hauls. Short hauls also require quicker turns to be more productive. I thought I read a company statement a while back that said even with the new procedures, they were not interested in changing the cattle call boarding process because it is part of their culture. (I guess that's part of being a Texas-based company! ) While reserved seating may make sense on longer hauls, having different boarding standards creates a level of complexity that is probably unnecessary.

There have been lots of studies conducted on the fastest way to board aircraft. If I recall correctly, open seating was second only to loading windows, then middles, and then aisle seats. Since that system would probably be overly complicated, I expect SWA will stick with the open seating policy in the interest of minimizing turn times and operating expenses.

 

[boeingav8r]

No offense to heavyset and especially corndog...you guys have tons of flight time and have prolly forgotten more about aviation that I know, but, I don't understand why you guys are so bitter about the middle seat. It's just not the middle seat that cramped in an airplane, it's almost everything that's cramped inside an airplane. A 737 is large compared to being in a lear cockpit. In all due respect, after 27000 hours, one should understand that sometimes when flying on airlines like Southwest, you may get stuck with the middle seat. Sure its no picnic, but the alternative is driving. Do you want to drive 4-5 hours to ABQ from DAL, or take a 90 minute Southwest flight where you may have to sit in the middle seat for awhile?

How do discussions like this one and that stupid "is it unprofessional to wear a pilot hat" thread even get started in the first place. Our country is at war and thousands of qualified crewmembers are furloughed. How are some of the pilots on this message board able to cry and whine about wearing their uniform hats and the boarding/seating policy on SWA? I will gladly have your airline hat permanently attached to my head and commute to and from work twice a week in the middle seat next to Bubba, just for the chance to have an airline career again.

 

[Heavy Set]

No MIDDLE SEAT issue...

I am not specifically concerned about the middle seat per se. In fact, I found an asile seat way in the back on my flight on Sunday. What disturbed me was the continuing mad scramble for seats and the resulting anxiety - "I've got to find a seat.... ahhhhhh.... that one is taken?....how about that one?" etc. etc. etc. Not a fun experience - seriously, it takes away from the great Southwest service....

My main point in this thread is that Southwest should CONSIDER changing its unassigned seat policy now that other things have changed (now paper confirmation passes) and other aggressive LCCs offer very competitive products. It is to Southwest's benefit to consider this - I don't care if its model has been successful for 600 years. Things change - flexible companies should be able to adapt to changing conditions. I am not suggesting that Southwest change everything - just ONE ASPECT...

Just because you guys don't have a problem with open seating does NOT mean that other passengers don't. If I were a business passenger who wanted to spend extra time with a customer and not worry about showing up at the airport early enough to be placed in the "B" section of boarding priority, then I would not appreciate open seating as much. You should have seen the negative expressions on the business passengers behind me - I felt bad for them. Multiply that scene by 1,000 per day and it is not a pretty picture.

I am not trying to be disrespectful. I have made my points. Just constructive feedback. I hope Herb and others will consider a change... Southwest is the last major to offer unassigned seats - I hope it will consider this change and improve its product - to everyone's benefit...

xXpress1,

Does Southwest offer Zoloft with its peanuts? I would probably take a few next time...


Cheers

 

[flyingitalian]

Heavy Set,

Sorry you had a bad experience on SWA. Sounds like you wont come back until we assign seats. Personally I dont think it will happen. SWAs success is based on simplicity. The plastic boarding cards were done away with because of a TSA requirement to have a passengers name printed on the card. Then other changes were made because we were making our customers wait in line three times before they boarded a single flight. Further changes will be made (I hope soon) so we can get our connecting customers all boarding passes at the same time instead of making them wait in line every time they change airplanes.

Ive worked for another major airline and I can tell you SWA turns an airplane like no other. Our ramp workers are fantastic. I have never waited for ramp personel to marshal us into a spot, or a jet way driver to be ready to accept us. Our flight attendants do not want to check bags because they know it sucks and they make every effort to find room for each carry on to the point of going to a bin and taking out a small bag and telling the customer to put it under the seat in front of them. Quite a sight.

New carriers have the advantage of not dragging 30 years of history forward with them. We have the advanatge of frequency, reliability and flexibility.

While JetBlue has a fantastic product they have 36 airplanes and dont have the frequency that SWA does. Airtran is losing money so is ATA. Song in unproven and IMHO the same story, drive the low costs out of business and then raise the fares.

If the seat anxiety is a showstopper SWA just might not be for you.

 

[flx757]

Airtran is losing money so is ATA.

Better check your facts on that one. AirTran was profitable for the year 2002 ($10.7M), and will post higher than forecast profits for the 1Q 2003.

 

[canyonblue]

I have never waited for ramp personel to marshal us into a spot, or a jet way driver to be ready to accept us.

This still blows me away as I have waited only once for a jetway operator in a year now(we were 20 mins early) Always there!. Ramp personal actually run to marshall a plane in. At a former airline the only time you saw the ramp guys run was whe the employee bus pulled up.

vx9.tc

I've flown those Friday night BUR-LAS and know why you take the middle seat Another good reason to have "choose your own seat"!!

 

[sfomarc]

Keep in mind we have operated since day one with no assigned seats. Price as it was stated is king. Now if you are going to fly from point a to point b and the difference between fares is more than $500.00 and you, not your company is paying for it, which one are you going to choose? Exactly, $$$. Well thats how it has been for many many years.

Now new LCC's have showed up and are offering something different at a comparable price. Which one are you going to take? I for one will give them a try. I would bet that management at SWA are montoring that. If they succeed long term we will most likely have to make some changes, ie assigned seats, TV. If they fail then I would bet things will remain the same.

Someone stated that when we get a first class he will give us a try. Well I too flew for corporate and was a vendor for EJA so I can bet who ever made that statement is not paying for their own tickets.