Southwest Pilots Aggressively Push Age 65

[Whistlin' Dan]

FoxHunter, you are one crazy, senile MoFo. :nuts: Here's Dr Jordan's final column, from spring '06: http://www.faa.gov/library/reports/medical/fasmb/editorials_jj/final/

The testimony I cited occurred summer 2005, and is eerily similar to testimony from 2001 (Dr Jordan's been the Federal Air Surgeon since 1991):
http://testimony.ost.dot.gov/test/pasttest/01test/Lacey1.htm

If the possibility of a sudden cardiac "event" is of such great concern to Dr. Jordan, I wonder why his reasoning wouldn't extend to the denying of drivers licenses to anyone over 60? There, the possibility of collateral injury or death is even greater, as there is no "co-driver" to take the wheel in the event of sudden incapacitation. As I understand it, bus and truck drivers can drive pretty much forever. Railroad engineers likewise.

Maybe we ought to look at boaters, as well. A pleasure boat with a deceased skipper at the helm can cause a lot of damage.

That part about the deterioration of "cognitive skills" could really be used to support the denial of ALL professional licenses to folks over 60. As Dr. Jordan correctly points out, everybody's skills erode over time, though not at the same rate. Since Dr. Jordan apparently doesn't believe that there's any way to ascertain whose skills have, and whose have not, eroded past safe limits, he advocates the grounding of all commercial pilots over the age of 60.

Obviously, Dr. Jordan puts little faith into the ongoing system of checks and ongoing performance evaluations that are part and parcel of the air transportation system. The problem is, that that is the system we use to ensure that ALL pilots are able to cope with the mental demands of operating an aircraft.

If it can't tell us anything about the mental functioning of a person over 60, what can it tell us about the mental functioning of a person under 60?

Age is but one of many factors that can affect cognitive skills and mental functioning. I wonder why Dr. Jordan chose to address the problem in the manner he did, rather than to advocate for a CS test for all pilots on a periodic basis?

Maybe Dr. Jordan was getting a little senile himself. Maybe that's why he took the position he did. Maybe that's why he retired.

If so, good riddance!

Q.E.D., Dr. Jordan. You have shown us your proof...

 

[Sluggo_63]

If the possibility of a sudden cardiac "event" is of such great concern to Dr. Jordan, I wonder why his reasoning wouldn't extend to the denying of drivers licenses to anyone over 60? There, the possibility of collateral injury or death is even greater, as there is no "co-driver" to take the wheel in the event of sudden incapacitation. As I understand it, bus and truck drivers can drive pretty much forever. Railroad engineers likewise.

Maybe we ought to look at boaters, as well. A pleasure boat with a deceased skipper at the helm can cause a lot of damage.

That part about the deterioration of "cognitive skills" could really be used to support the denial of ALL professional licenses to folks over 60. As Dr. Jordan correctly points out, everybody's skills erode over time, though not at the same rate. Since Dr. Jordan apparently doesn't believe that there's any way to ascertain whose skills have, and whose have not, eroded past safe limits, he advocates the grounding of all commercial pilots over the age of 60.

Obviously, Dr. Jordan puts little faith into the ongoing system of checks and ongoing performance evaluations that are part and parcel of the air transportation system. The problem is, that that is the system we use to ensure that ALL pilots are able to cope with the mental demands of operating an aircraft.

If it can't tell us anything about the mental functioning of a person over 60, what can it tell us about the mental functioning of a person under 60?

Age is but one of many factors that can affect cognitive skills and mental functioning. I wonder why Dr. Jordan chose to address the problem in the manner he did, rather than to advocate for a CS test for all pilots on a periodic basis?

Maybe Dr. Jordan was getting a little senile himself. Maybe that's why he took the position he did. Maybe that's why he retired.

If so, good riddance!

Q.E.D., Dr. Jordan. You have shown us your proof...

That's all well and good, but then why the caveat in the law that one pilot must be under 60?

 

[FoxHunter]

That's all well and good, but then why the caveat in the law that one pilot must be under 60?

That is because that is the new ICAO standard effective 23 November 2006. ICAO adopted it from the European JAA standard which has been in effect for a number of years. This one pilot under 60 was adopted as an interim requirement until additional data is collected.

 

[Sluggo_63]

That is because that is the new ICAO standard effective 23 November 2006. ICAO adopted it from the European JAA standard which has been in effect for a number of years. This one pilot under 60 was adopted as an interim requirement until additional data is collected.

I understand it's the ICAO standard. Why? It's been in effect for a number of years but they don't have the required data yet?

When I'm an over-60 F/O (I'm a slow learner), and I bid my double d/h line to my home town, and an over-60 captain bids the same line... who gets bumped? Does a junior F/O get my line because I can't fly with the other guy? Or does the Capt get bumped like a high-mins guy would now? Lot's of sticking points there, among others. We'll see.

Either way it at least got me to brush off my letter writing skills as I let my Congressmen know I would value their continued opposition to S.65 and HR.65.

 

[Falcon Jet 1]

I understand it's the ICAO standard. Why? It's been in effect for a number of years but they don't have the required data yet?

When I'm an over-60 F/O (I'm a slow learner), and I bid my double d/h line to my home town, and an over-60 captain bids the same line... who gets bumped? Does a junior F/O get my line because I can't fly with the other guy? Or does the Capt get bumped like a high-mins guy would now? Lot's of sticking points there, among others. We'll see.

Either way it at least got me to brush off my letter writing skills as I let my Congressmen know I would value their continued opposition to S.65 and HR.65.

DITTO

 

[FoxHunter]

I understand it's the ICAO standard. Why? It's been in effect for a number of years but they don't have the required data yet?

When I'm an over-60 F/O (I'm a slow learner), and I bid my double d/h line to my home town, and an over-60 captain bids the same line... who gets bumped? Does a junior F/O get my line because I can't fly with the other guy? Or does the Capt get bumped like a high-mins guy would now? Lot's of sticking points there, among others. We'll see.

Either way it at least got me to brush off my letter writing skills as I let my Congressmen know I would value their continued opposition to S.65 and HR.65.

I guess one could argue that any pilot that is a F/O over age 60 is probably a problem. He/She probably had the same problems at age 30.

 

[Sluggo_63]

I guess one could argue that any pilot that is a F/O over age 60 is probably a problem. He/She probably had the same problems at age 30.

Over 60 F/O's? That's nothing... I've seen a lot of over 60 guys that are S/O's... they really must have screwed up

 

[Chest Rockwell]

If the age 60 rule did not exist today, I do not believe anyone would have a sufficient arguement to get it passed.

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

I understand it's the ICAO standard. Why? It's been in effect for a number of years but they don't have the required data yet?

When I'm an over-60 F/O (I'm a slow learner), and I bid my double d/h line to my home town, and an over-60 captain bids the same line... who gets bumped? Does a junior F/O get my line because I can't fly with the other guy? Or does the Capt get bumped like a high-mins guy would now? Lot's of sticking points there, among others. We'll see.

Either way it at least got me to brush off my letter writing skills as I let my Congressmen know I would value their continued opposition to S.65 and HR.65.

I'd like to let my Congressman know how concerned I am about the "problem" posed by pilots over 60, except that he's over 60, and a pilot himself.

 

[Sluggo_63]

I'd like to let my Congressman know how concerned I am about the "problem" posed by pilots over 60, except that he's over 60, and a pilot himself.

Cool, what airline does he fly for?

If I'm not mistaken, you can be a pilot as long as you can pass a medical. You can't fly for a Part 121 carrier over 60. Should we drop the age requirements for Air Traffic Controllers, Law Enforcement, and Firefighters? Don't use the argument that they have pensions, because it's not about that, right?

 

[Andy]

FoxHunter, I'm sure that your jab at Dr Jordan was in jest, but some here may read it as truth. Dr. Jordan was the Federal Air Surgeon when Bob Hoover's medical got pulled at 72. He withstood the heat of that decision and stayed on as Federal Air Surgeon. I don't know if Bob Hoover's turned a wheel since then, but I didn't see anything about him performing in airshows after that.

Whistlin' Dan, are you aware that the Federal Air Surgeon has no authority over the licensing of automobile drivers, truck drivers, boaters, and locomotive engineers? That being the case, why would he make any public statements about the licensing of operators of those types of equipment? However, he does have authority over the medical licensing of aircraft pilots and the Federal Air Surgeon's position on age 60 is crystal clear.

If anyone should be in favor of raising the age, I should be a poster child for it. I'll be turning 46 in a few months and my third child (wife's first) is due shortly thereafter. I'll be 'forced' to retire when my child is 14 years old; it sure would be nice to be able to work until the child's at least in college. Granted, I'm furloughed, but I plan on taking the maximum permissible military leave of absence (six years) once I'm recalled. I wouldn't mind making it another nine years of military service instead of six.
Yet I oppose any changes to the age 60 rule because I can see my skills deteriorating, and I've watched the skills of others deteriorate. I've seen too many pilots who wouldn't know when to call it quits. And anyone who tells me that medical testing is going to screen those people out, I'd like them to tell me how that is happening today.
Why is 65 a reasonable age when 60 is unreasonable? Why stop at 65? Why have any age limit?
This also opens that perverbial Pandora's box to all other professions. If anyone here doesn't think that there would be an avalanche of lawsuits claiming age discrimination for mandatory retirement ages across a variety of professions, they're smoking crack. I have a problem with 65 year old firefighters.

 

[Bringupthebird]

The Pro-Age 60-Discrimination crowd has done more to advance the repeal of the Age 60 rule than any lobbying group could ever do. Please don't stop writing your letters demanding forced early retirement on everyone in order to "insure" your phantom upgrade. Please don't move from your stand of, "It's been that way forever." Please don't stop trying to pander to the emotions by suggesting that older pilots pose a safety risk. Please keep harping on the greed of senior Captains as the hidden justification for the move to repeal a patently unnecessary law.

Please, I'll even write the letters and send them for you! The legistalors whom you hold in such distain that you think they can be manipulated into supporting the continued discrimination of qualified people to pursue their profession, surely are too stupid to see through your thinly-veiled agenda.

To those who give unsolicited employment advice such as, "Go teach in the sim" or "Go buy a 182", I counter, "Go pass an age 60 retirement in your airline's CBA." You get your uninterrupted upgrades (HAH!) and you insure that your airline is scheduled with safety. As someone has previously posted, the Age 60 rule wouldn't stand a chance if it were attempted today. So why not prove the support your discrimination has by passing a CBA with firm AGE 60 retirement language in it.

As support continues to build for finally disposing with the age 60 rule, all I have to say to those proponents of continued discrimination is, "Whatever you're doing, don't stop."

 

[Flycatcher99]

Be assured, there are many, many pilots at SWA that do not want the retirement age changed, and are less than pleased with the vast amounts of time and money that are being spent by SWAPA in this pursuit. Not to mention, it's hard to understand the company's support of such a change, as it seems that pilot productivity will not exactly improve after a change in the retirement age.

 

[bubbers44]

Andy, I saw Bob Hoover's last performance in the Shrike at Reno about 7 years ago. It didn't look like his shows when he was younger but it was ok. I just retired at 60 from a major and have wondered how do you know when you are too old. I can't answer that question. I still call my hair color brown but most is grey. It is such a gradual process of ageing that you compensate and only by looking at past pictures can you really tell any difference. A physical doesn't prove much.

Now, after three years of retirement, I am happy I didn't have to decide because it was done for me. I still have a first class physical but haven't flown since retirement. Never thought I could give it up but don't regret it either. Going six months at a time passing physicals might have made me continue too long. Waking up in the morning with nothing to do is a wonderful thing.

 

[Sluggo_63]

The Pro-Age 60-Discrimination crowd has done more to advance the repeal of the Age 60 rule than any lobbying group could ever do. Please don't stop writing your letters demanding forced early retirement on everyone in order to "insure" your phantom upgrade. Please don't move from your stand of, "It's been that way forever." Please don't stop trying to pander to the emotions by suggesting that older pilots pose a safety risk. Please keep harping on the greed of senior Captains as the hidden justification for the move to repeal a patently unnecessary law.

Please, I'll even write the letters and send them for you! The legistalors whom you hold in such distain that you think they can be manipulated into supporting the continued discrimination of qualified people to pursue their profession, surely are too stupid to see through your thinly-veiled agenda.
This one got me. Our thinly veiled agenda? You guys are on the razors edge of it's about safety. But wait... no, it's because I lost my pension. But it's discrimination... please. Just come out and say it's about making more money.

To those who give unsolicited employment advice such as, "Go teach in the sim" or "Go buy a 182", I counter, "Go pass an age 60 retirement in your airline's CBA." I don't need to... we already have a law for that. You get your uninterrupted upgrades (HAH!) and you insure that your airline is scheduled with safety. As someone has previously posted, the Age 60 rule wouldn't stand a chance if it were attempted today. So why not prove the support your discrimination has by passing a CBA with firm AGE 60 retirement language in it.

As support continues to build for finally disposing with the age 60 rule, all I have to say to those proponents of continued discrimination is, "Whatever you're doing, don't stop."

You know the data is there to support the fact that aging pilots are more prone to illness. Just collect all the data on sick call usage over the last 20 years and see the rate of sick call useage of those engineers over 60 and those catains nearing 60. It goes up ten-fold. So to me the data suggests that as you near or pass that 60 mark you become more and more incapable of flying your schedule.

I'd like to see that rubutted in Congress...
"No Congressman... you see they really weren't sick. They were manipulating the system so they gan get more paid time off. They were lying..."

If they want the time off that badly, retire.

 

[FoxHunter]

You know the data is there to support the fact that aging pilots are more prone to illness. Just collect all the data on sick call usage over the last 20 years and see the rate of sick call useage of those engineers over 60 and those catains nearing 60. It goes up ten-fold. So to me the data suggests that as you near or pass that 60 mark you become more and more incapable of flying your schedule.

I'd like to see that rubutted in Congress...
"No Congressman... you see they really weren't sick. They were manipulating the system so they gan get more paid time off. They were lying..."

If they want the time off that badly, retire.

No, if all earned sick leave was paid upon retirement there would not be a problem age 60 or age 65. Many just decide to have zero sick leave remaining upon retirement.

 

[bubbers44]

Everyone I know that approaches retirement tries to use as much sick time that they accrued as possible. I still had a year of sick time left at retirement and lost it all since the company didn't pay anything for unused sick time. I always wondered if using a ton of sick time the last year would hinder you if you applied for a job again.

 

[Flopgut]

I heard one of the fractionals has done a comprehensive study on fatigue. It is going to result in fewer (if any) age 60+ pilots being hired. They can't even finish a whole duty day more often than not.

 

[Flopgut]

If the age 60 rule did not exist today, I do not believe anyone would have a sufficient arguement to get it passed.

You could get anything passed when it gets handled like this. The majority of pilots don't support it, industry doesn't either, and an earnest safety dialog hasn't even taken place. This is being forced onto us by ICAO.

If it doesn't pass this time, it never will. It won't get this close again.

 

[Flopgut]

No, if all earned sick leave was paid upon retirement there would not be a problem age 60 or age 65. Many just decide to have zero sick leave remaining upon retirement.

If it's not built into your CBA, your manipulating the system. Your reasoning would impress no one.

I seriously doubt you've really impressed too many congressional staffers, much less an actual congressperson.

 

[chase]

Southwest pilots as a whole don't support age 60 going away in my opinion. SWAPA says we do, but we haven't voted recently on the issue. 60% of the seniorty list wasn't even on property when the last vote was held.

SWAPA leadership and a few over zealous guys are making the push. Not SWA pilots as a whole. They had 40 something guys turn out to lobby congress. Not an overwhelming turnout if you ask me. Most guys I talk too don't want the rule to change.

It is a matter of some wanting their cake and wanting to eat it too. Unfortunately for most of us, it probably will change.

Last vote on Age 60 at SWAPA, closed on 15 April 2003. Here's some information to correct your statement (just trying to provide some clarification)

"M​

​

ore than 60 percent of the membership decided they wanted the association to continue its efforts to have the Age 60 rule repealed when the election closed on April15. Nearly 60 percent, 2,431pilots, of the total membership turned out to cast their vote on the issue.
The number of pilots voting yes to the question on whether they wanted SWAPA to continue its efforts to repeal the Age 60 rule was 1,458 or 60.25 percent, with 962 or 39.75 percent voting no."​

Additionally as of today (24 July 06) there are 5097 pilots on property. The number of new hires on the property that have arrived on 1 March '03 to today that have not voted on the issue totals 898. I don't believe that number equates to the percentage you mentioned in your post below.

While only 60% of the pilots who were on property at the time voted in the referendum, it was offered up to the membership for a vote. I suspect it may come back up for another vote sometime in the future if the restriction isn't lifted this year, if so the membership will have another opportunity to speak on the issue. Not trying to be a pain, just wanted to correct any misconception someone might gain from your post.

 

[Flycatcher99]

With only a 60% turnout in that vote, Chase, it seems that no conclusion can be drawn as to what the true percentage of for/against is on this issue. Further, a captain told me that it took three separate votes before the union got the majority vote they needed to continue their pursuit of a change in the legal retirement age.

At any rate, if I may editorialize a bit, while I certainly understand the desire of (some) captains to continue flying past 60, I have three points I'd like to make. First, no one is stopping them from flying for a living. There are plenty of avenues available to continue to make a living in aviation. Second, I'd like one of these captains to explain how age 60 is any more discriminatory than age 65. Third, if 65 is just as safe as 60, then why the caveat that only one crewmember can be over 60?

Again, I don't begrudge any of these folks their desire to continue in this great job past 60. I just don't appreciate the inference that some guys put forth that their position is more ethical and less greedy than mine.

 

[Widow's Son]

>>Second, I'd like one of these captains to explain how age 60 is any more discriminatory than age 65.<<

That's easy. 65 has been long established in our society as the traditional standard for retirement, which means that any baseline below that is artificially and capriciously low.
Age 65 is the minimum age that you can be considered by the government to be "fully retired" for benefits of the Social Security Administration, Medicaid/Medicare, and even the Pension Benefit Guarantee Association.

 

[Flopgut]

>> Age 65 is the minimum age that you can be considered by the government to be "fully retired" for benefits of the Social Security Administration, Medicaid/Medicare, and even the Pension Benefit Guarantee Association.

Not me Bozo, my age will be 67, so your reasoning won't help me in the same way. Of course it helps you, so that's ok.

 

[Widow's Son]

Floppy,

You're right. The same government who maintains age 60 has increased the official government retirement standard to age 67 and beyond. Do you know what they use to justify that? Updated actuarial data that reflect increased longevity.

 

[Andy]

>>Second, I'd like one of these captains to explain how age 60 is any more discriminatory than age 65.<<

That's easy. 65 has been long established in our society as the traditional standard for retirement, which means that any baseline below that is artificially and capriciously low.
Age 65 is the minimum age that you can be considered by the government to be "fully retired" for benefits of the Social Security Administration, Medicaid/Medicare, and even the Pension Benefit Guarantee Association.

You may want to do a bit of research to find out how that arbitrary number (65) was chosen. You'll need to go back to the Prussian retirement system set up by Otto von Bismarck in the 1800s. The reason why the age of 65 was chosen is that very few people lived to reach 65. I haven't been able to easily locate any Prussian actuarial tables (just a quick foray on Google), but I would venture to guess that the average Prussian lifespan was at least a decade short of 65, if not significantly greater.
If you apply the logic chosen for the retirement age of 65, it should now be set to somewhere north of 90. I suppose that if the change in retirement age was made, you would justify pilots flying to 90, eh?

 

[Andy]

Updated actuarial data that reflect increased longevity.

I sincerely hope that you aren't trying to link increased longevity with better health. I'd have to disagree; Americans are less healthy today than 50 years ago. Much of that increased longevity is due to medical advances ... medical advances where the quality of life is not a consideration.
Just take a stroll into your local hospital's ICU and take a look at how few 'DNR' orders there are, in spite of patients being hooked up to multiple lifesaving machines. To some, that's living. I place a much greater emphasis on quality of life.
And for the purposes of this discussion, we're focusing on quality of life.

 

[FoxHunter]

Not me Bozo, my age will be 67, so your reasoning won't help me in the same way. Of course it helps you, so that's ok.

I expect by the time you reach age 65 there will be no age limit. Some people will retire at age 60 and some at age 70, depending on the individual.:beer:

 

[Chest Rockwell]

With only a 60% turnout in that vote, Chase, it seems that no conclusion can be drawn as to what the true percentage of for/against is on this issue. Further, a captain told me that it took three separate votes before the union got the majority vote they needed to continue their pursuit of a change in the legal retirement age.

At any rate, if I may editorialize a bit, while I certainly understand the desire of (some) captains to continue flying past 60, I have three points I'd like to make. First, no one is stopping them from flying for a living. There are plenty of avenues available to continue to make a living in aviation. Second, I'd like one of these captains to explain how age 60 is any more discriminatory than age 65. Third, if 65 is just as safe as 60, then why the caveat that only one crewmember can be over 60?

Again, I don't begrudge any of these folks their desire to continue in this great job past 60. I just don't appreciate the inference that some guys put forth that their position is more ethical and less greedy than mine.

If it is okay for them to fly past age 60, why is it okay for them to be fired from a position for which they are qualified and capable simply for having a 60th birthday.

 

[Andy]

Andy, I saw Bob Hoover's last performance in the Shrike at Reno about 7 years ago. It didn't look like his shows when he was younger but it was ok. I just retired at 60 from a major and have wondered how do you know when you are too old. I can't answer that question. I still call my hair color brown but most is grey. It is such a gradual process of ageing that you compensate and only by looking at past pictures can you really tell any difference. A physical doesn't prove much.

Now, after three years of retirement, I am happy I didn't have to decide because it was done for me. I still have a first class physical but haven't flown since retirement. Never thought I could give it up but don't regret it either. Going six months at a time passing physicals might have made me continue too long. Waking up in the morning with nothing to do is a wonderful thing.

Bubbers44, I hope that you are savoring every day of your well deserved retirement.
If not for a mandatory retirement age, I wouldn't know when to call it quits. I can see the slow degeneration of my body, yet it is so incrementally small that it is barely noticable. I work out 5-6 days a week and that's where I really notice the small, continuous performance degradation. I can no longer bench press 300 pounds; 280 is now getting to be a struggle. My joints are a bit stiffer when I wake in the mornings. My eyesight, once 20/15, is now starting to go; I should be wearing glasses but don't. My knees give me fits when I run too long. My waist is expanding. These are all subtle reminders that all of my physical and mental abilities are deteriorating. A long, slow process, but they deteriorate nonetheless.
At what point should I never fly again? I don't know, and I know that I could find a friendly AME to give me another class I, even if I were a walking coronary time bomb.
The reason why having a mandatory retirement age is positive is that most pilots wouldn't call it quits until their skills have deteriorated past the point where they are dangerous. In some cases, well past that point.