Southwest Accident May Be Indicative of Carrier-Specific Problem

[stonewall]

Well, he didn't F it up. Would you rather fly it as pubished, or do the SMART thing and fly it like he did?

 

[mar]

Pretty irresponsible

The lawyer is obviously fishing for clients and engaging in shameless speculation.

All this talk about auto-brakes....so what!!!

I'm sure the brakes worked, in auto or manually.

The better question is, how was the ANTI-SKID working that day.

But that will take time, until then, this all just journalistic masturbation.

 

[satpak77]

What do y'all think of this:

Flew into Huntington one night with a very young 727 FDX captain. Short runway, bad wx. very low vis. He flat out told me, "okay, bra, I'm gonna fly this ILS one dot low the whole way down. It'll put us exactly where I wanna be on the runway." Sounded good to me. The dude flew a great approach exactly like he said he was gonna fly it, and we landed about 1000' feet down and stopped in plenty o' time. I liked it, since most military pilots like to land in the first 500' anyway. How do my civvie bros feel about something like the approach above? Just curious.

"needles centered" is the only way to properly fly the ILS, and this is the only way to guarantee obstruction clearance. Flown that way, you WILL land 1000 feet down. You didn't fly the sim at the FDX interview one dot low did you?

didnt think so

 

[satpak77]

Well, he didn't F it up. Would you rather fly it as pubished, or do the SMART thing and fly it like he did?

Magnum please tell me you are joking

 

[Creamer]

Well, he didn't F it up. Would you rather fly it as pubished, or do the SMART thing and fly it like he did?

Flying one dot low takes away all allowances for error and we all make errors. Especially at 0600 after flying all night! This practice will kill somebody eventually.

 

[HalinTexas]

You better be glad that CVR's can't be used against you for criminal or civil action. If you briefed that approach that way and f'd it up, you'd be in court or jail for the rest of your natural life.

Unbelievably stupid. Ever heard of LLWS?

 

[JohnDoe]

quote:
"Would you rather fly it as pubished, or do the SMART thing and fly it like he did?"


Flying one dot low is the smart thing to do on an at-minimums ILS approach??

 

[atafan]

"Ok brah", Just fly the approach they way it has been designed tested and certified for, needles centered up.

That's the way civies are supposed to be doing it. As for your captain that invents his own techniques, we'll be reading about him someday.

 

[100LL... Again!]

Always amazes me when people think they are smarter than the decades of experts that went before them and engineered all this stuff.

I think it is an inherent need to feel that they are just a little smarter than the rest of us. Ego, all ego.

 

[Boeingman]

What do y'all think of this:

Flew into Huntington one night with a very young 727 FDX captain. Short runway, bad wx. very low vis. He flat out told me, "okay, bra, I'm gonna fly this ILS one dot low the whole way down. It'll put us exactly where I wanna be on the runway." Sounded good to me. The dude flew a great approach exactly like he said he was gonna fly it, and we landed about 1000' feet down and stopped in plenty o' time. I liked it, since most military pilots like to land in the first 500' anyway. How do my civvie bros feel about something like the approach above? Just curious.

I think both of you will be a statistic one day. Not a question of if, but when.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

"No, I was shaving with a Mach 3, and when you shave with a Mach 3, theres no time to think! If you think, your dead!

Let me guess, when you got to your hotel room, you showered, dried off and played some volleyball too....ICEMAN.

 

[Babylon]

Yes there is a problem at SWA

Look I fly the 737-700 as well. I didn't know that SWA doesn't train pilots on using the Autobrakes or Autothrottles but if that's the case then they definitely have a problem.

1) The training involved with using Autobrakes and Autothrottles is minimal. Pilots can EASILY fly aircraft that have them and don't - it would be nothing short of idiotic to not use autothrottles or autobrakes because "you're not trained in them". I suspect it has more to do with the cost of maintaining - SWA is cheap.

2) SWA does not train to use the VNAV option for the same reason - some of their jets don't have VNAV and they don't want to "confuse the pilots". Another GREAT safety tool.

3) If SWA typically teaches pilots to hand fly all approaches then it has even more serious problems. What would be the rationale for that?

4) You might be able to beat the autobrakes with manual brakes but it often won't work out like that and the autobrakes in general are a much safer option (max/3 autobrakes is expressly for a situation like this one). Heck you can beat the auto spoilers with manual spoilers often as well but that's not a reason to do manual spoiler landings.

5) SWA in general teaches a rush rush atmosphere. Anyone who has been flying for a while realizes this. It works great most of the time but it definitely takes a bite in the safety - usually not enough to cause problems but sometimes it does.

 

[Ty Webb]

Look I fly the 737-700 as well. I didn't know that SWA doesn't train pilots on using the Autobrakes or Autothrottles but if that's the case then they definitely have a problem.

No generalization is worth a damn, including this one.

(With apologies to Mark Twain)

 

[PacoPollo]

Some of the airports that SW prefer to fly out of are inherently unsafe and should be closed. Midway is one of them.

But Midway fits their business model...

 

[Mach 80]

Babylon,

Well, it looks like the ambulance chaser has succesfully baited you. There is a big difference from a runway having nil braking at the last 25% when reported as poor versus another accident in which a pilot was way too fast, but go ahead and swallow what the money chasing non-pilot lawyer says hook line and sinker!!

Actually, to correct you, SWA has VNAV on ALL the airplanes but won't let the pilots use them for what they consider SAFETY reasons. They have a philosphical opinion that by having the pilots manually descend the airplane, it FORCES them to be in the loop of what the plane is doing (versus "Oh, apparently it's time to descend" at VNAV airlines). It wasn't a matter of cost or "confusing" the pilots. If it was based on cost, obviously VNAV would save money for more accurate descents. It's just a philosophy. They had the same philosophy for LNAV (Remember AA turning to the wrong fix and into a mountain South America just with the push of a button? And there have been other cases). Changes in ATC forced them to go with the LNAV. You may disagree with the philosophy but so be it, but it wasn't to keep from "confusing" the pilots or to "save" money.

As far as you "hand flying approaches" you obviously are ignorant and inexperienced of the benefits and abilities of the Heads Up Guidance System.

SW doesn't teach rushing. Are you crazy? Who would teach that??

Just because they don't WASTE time like pilots at other carriers trying to find any excuse to milk another minute of pay doesn't mean they rush. Certainly there is a difference between rushing and being efficient. Some of the BS statements on here are incredibily stupid almost as bad as the TV reporters and often simply show jealousy towards a succesful competitor and not missing any chance to bash them. It's dissapoining to see that in the piloting world.

This accident will boil down to braking action in the last quarter of the runway being far less good then what was reported.

 

[stonewall]

"needles centered" is the only way to properly fly the ILS, and this is the only way to guarantee obstruction clearance. Flown that way, you WILL land 1000 feet down. You didn't fly the sim at the FDX interview one dot low did you?

didnt think so

Good point.

 

[stonewall]

Magnum please tell me you are joking

And you're right. Now that I've gone back and re-read, it didn't quite come out like I meant it.

 

[regionaltard]

Well, he didn't F it up. Would you rather fly it as pubished, or do the SMART thing and fly it like he did?

I think the whole point of this discussion it that if it can't be done safely as published, it can't be done safely. Period.

 

[regionaltard]

(3) If SWA typically teaches pilots to hand fly all approaches then it has even more serious problems. What would be the rationale for that?

I can tell you from personal experience that a pilot hand-flying an approach with a HGS is infinitely more "in the loop" with regard to awareness of his ship's energy state than is a pilot watching Otto do the heavy lifting. The HGS is so superior there's really no meaningful basis for comparison IMO.

 

[Spooky 1]

SWA AIRLINES LACK OF USE OF STANDARD BOEING SAFETY FEATURES COMBINE WITH THE RUSH RUSH SWA MENTALITY ARE POSITIVELY CONTRIBUTING FACTORS.

THAT COMBINED WITH THE AGE OF THE CAPTAIN AND HIS INGRAINED SWA ATTITUDES, THIS WAS BOUND TO HAPPEN SOONER RATHER THAN LATER.

WHAT A SHAME IT IS GOING TO TAKE THE DEATH OF A CHILD TO FIX SWA!

I am sorry and I almost hate to aske the question but what does the age of this guy have to do with this accident? How old was the guy who ran off the runway at KBUR, KPHX? Please don't dream up sh!t, just stick to the facts as if you or anyone else has a clue as what really caused this accicent.

 

[flx757]

Matt,

What superior airline that hires superior young pilots such as yourself that fly using superior procedures are YOU employed by?

Just curious.

At my company, we also fly 737s with HGS. Just looking for a point of reference so that maybe we can change our procedures to match that of your superior company...unless of course, you work here. If that's the case, then I need to have a word with the recruitment people to ensure we continue to get a steady stream of superior young pilots such as yourself.

(I see you are infatuated with the CAPS LOCK key on your keyboard. Is that another trait of the superior young pilot? If so, I'll see that we include screening for that during our interview process.):laugh:

Could I send a copy of your "facts" to the IIC at the NTSB? It would greatly assist in speeding the process since they can just cut directly to the probable cause and skip the investigation altogether.

 

[Spooky 1]

AGE AND REACTION TIME HAVE A POSITIVE CORRELATION. AND THE CAPTAIN OF THIS FLIGHT WAS 59!

ITS A FACTOR AND THATS A FACT.

FUTHURMORE IF THE HGS WAS BEING USED THE 59 YEAR OLD CAPTAIN WAS THE FLYING PILOT.

Hey Matt, I will try to humor you a little and at the same not hi-jack this thread. There are numerous posts on this site discussing the merits of age so I again will ask you what the ages of the previous pilots were at SWA that had similar accidents/incidents? I guess we will just wait and see what the NTSB comes up with and if they list age as a casual or defining factor in this accident. Until then sit back, listen and watch the outcome of the investigation. I personally have little experience in the B737 and only occasionally operate into Midway in a B757, so I am certainly not the expert that you seem to be.

 

[FDJ2]

I don't know about the procedures other airlines use, but DAL has adopted Boeing procedures. This is from the 737NG Training Manual.​

Automatic Brakes

​

Boeing recommends that whenever runway limited, using higher than normal approach speeds, landing on slippery runways or landing in a crosswind, the autobrake system be used.

For normal operation of the autobrake system select a deceleration setting.
Settings include:

• MAX: Used when minimum stopping distance is required. Deceleration
rate is less than that produced by full manual braking
• MED (2 or 3, as installed): Should be used for wet or slippery runways or
when landing rollout distance is limited
• MIN (1, as installed): These settings provide a moderate deceleration
effect suitable for all routine operations.
​

 

[matt1.1]

Age Is A Factor

That Is Why It Is Being Reported By Everyone From Gary Kelly To Cnn.

According To All You Old Pilots Your Superior Judgement Should Have Prevented This From Happening.

But All You Guys Have Is Your Witty Comebacks And Put Downs.

Flx757 And Spooky 1--stay In The Sim Mr. MD80 instructor pilot

 

[Spooky 1]

That Is Why It Is Being Reported By Everyone From Gary Kelly To Cnn.

According To All You Old Pilots Your Superior Judgement Should Have Prevented This From Happening.

But All You Guys Have Is Your Witty Comebacks And Put Downs.

Flx757 And Spooky 1--stay In The Sim

Again I ask and again, you dodge the question. How old were the previous guys that were involved in SWA accidents. I'll give you a hint on the BUR accident, 52. How about the guys at FedEx in Newark and Subic Bay along with the last five tail strikes on the MD11? Another hint, no where close to 59 or 55, or 50 for that matter. You don't know jack so please please take your made up profile and go somewhere else. Flying is a serious profession and to have fools like you draw fantasy conclusions about the cause of an accident is inappropriate at best.

 

[AlbieF15]

...I've always liked a slight duck under at 500 feet (fighter tech on ILS to land 500 down) when VMC, but I think in (most) approaches in a 727 it would scare the bejesus out of my crew. I also am afraid it might trigger a "sink rate" or even worse "pull up" warning. My only approach into that field was on reserve, and I avoid it an other "scary for a new guy" fields with bidding. However--TonyC, Jethro, or other bros--love to hear your techs.

 

[Spooky 1]

...I've always liked a slight duck under at 500 feet (fighter tech on ILS to land 500 down) when VMC, but I think in (most) approaches in a 727 it would scare the bejesus out of my crew. I also am afraid it might trigger a "sink rate" or even worse "pull up" warning. My only approach into that field was on reserve, and I avoid it an other "scary for a new guy" fields with bidding. However--TonyC, Jethro, or other bros--love to hear your techs.

I suppose we are all guilty from time to time of developing "techniques" to fly our airplanes but I would suggest that these can be fraught with danger and exposure to the long green table when the technique goes awry. Always can point to a procedure and take it to the bank, the technique on the other hand might not stand up to close scrutiniy. JMO. I say this not as faulting your technique, but rather than my experience of flying with hundreds of different pilots, each one with his/her own technique. Makes ones life confusing and miserable at times.

 

[Boeingman]

According To All You Old Pilots Your Superior Judgement Should Have Prevented This From Happening.

How about the superior judgement for those two "dudes" who were going to "410 it man" over at Pinnacle?

 

[Spooky 1]

That Is Why It Is Being Reported By Everyone From Gary Kelly To Cnn.

According To All You Old Pilots Your Superior Judgement Should Have Prevented This From Happening.

But All You Guys Have Is Your Witty Comebacks And Put Downs.

Flx757 And Spooky 1--stay In The Sim Mr. MD80 instructor pilot

Matt, I have never said anything like that to you? Don't use the sim but every six months cause I am still building time for my next job.

 

[matt1.1]

CRJ airstart QRH Flawed

How about the superior judgement for those two "dudes" who were going to "410 it man" over at Pinnacle?

And how did that accident have anything to do with reaction time as this discussion does concerning brake application reactions.

Boeingman, I suggest you read the accident investigation before misrepresenting the facts about young pilots. That accident involved two GE engines that failed to restart and a QRH that did not provide the necessary airspeed guidance for a successful restart. Nice try, old timer but again your MEMORY has failed or you are just distorting the facts and talking out your a$$.

Matt, I left this one post intact since you were at least trying to speak factually. Problem is, there has been no formal report issued on the crash in question. Your facts may be facts indeed--but accusing others of distorting the facts is difficult to prove when there has been no conclusive documentation either way.