Some Fool at Flex

[CL300Pilot]

In their history, has Flex ever taken away a raise? Just curious. Cautiousbelly, maybe you can enlightened us here on this one? I personally have never heard of it happening.

Keep in mind that your raise is not guaranteed and can be taken away without notice by the same generous folks who gave it to you.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

CL300,

These people don't care what ANYONE else says, they are going to complain and be miserable during their entire stay here at FlexJet. DO what I do and try your best to ignore them. All they try to do is throw "fear grenades" at anyone who remotely either backs the company or does not trash everything it does.

Do I think FlexJet is perfect, NO. Has it gotten to be a better place to work since I have been here, YES. DG said in the meeting that rest and duty rules were the hot topic of this year. The next day was the 1st meeting of this new committee to resolve the issues like rolling rest and home reserve/duty/rest. I know because I was actually up there when the meeting was taking place (I was not in the meeting).


But I don't even know why I am wasting the keystrokes, several of you won't be happy no matter what their response is. I say to those people, QUIT and go to NetJets, you will be equally as unhappy there. There is no job that will make you happy, so please just quit you complaining. I wish the company had the money to pay you just to stay home, but I am sure you would find something to complain about that also.

TWA 2 ASA FO
avg FlexJet line pilot

 

[warlord19]

TWA: You said it all, Dude. Why would anyone try defending Flexjet or any non-union shop on this board...it's just a place for whiners.
WL19

 

[Inigo Montoya]

CL300,
\
Do I think FlexJet is perfect, NO. Has it gotten to be a better place to work since I have been here, YES. DG said in the meeting that rest and duty rules were the hot topic of this year. The next day was the 1st meeting of this new committee to resolve the issues like rolling rest and home reserve/duty/rest. I know because I was actually up there when the meeting was taking place (I was not in the meeting).

avg FlexJet line pilot

Hiya TWA. Something I want to point out here, which I think a lot of Flex folks overlook. You agree that you want changes at flex? or that flex needs changes? whatever sounds better... and yes, there is a new committee to look at duty/rest stuff (i didn't know they started yet, so great). But, do you know WHY that committee got started? Because of people on this board (and the BB) who put they neck out and push for changes. It may seem like we are just complaining, but if folks didn't get on the BB and "complain" then nothing will ever get change.d If everybody posts happy "thanks DG!!" messages, why would management ever change a thing? That committee is a direct results of the recent posts pilots have made about rest and duty violations/issues. fifty bucks and my left n...er...just fifty bucks, says that if those pilots did not post on the BB, and instead sent a crew feedback email, or nothing at all, then the committee would not have been put together.

I ask you this then, what have you done to help get some positive changes around here? I post on the BB (with my real name of course), I write to my Chiefs, I fill in asap reports, I email the crew feedback folks, and I talk to the CAB members. What have you done lately?

Ignore me if you want, but "complainers" like me are partially, if not directly, responsible for the positive changes you see at Flex. I'm a good pilot, professional on the clock, an asset to this company, and I am really am working hard for changes, and it frustrates me to no end when I see people label me, and others, as simple complainers. Which group produces more results around here: the "kool-aid" drinkers or the vocal "complainers." Assuming the complainers have a valid point, I'd put my money on them.

If you think flex needs some changes, then do something about instead of just being "average"

nothing personal by the way. just saying get involved, but at the very least dont get in the way.

 

[DirtyBeech]

In their history, has Flex ever taken away a raise? Just curious. Cautiousbelly, maybe you can enlightened us here on this one? I personally have never heard of it happening.

CL,
I've never heard of it, but I do know that they furloughed out of seniority the last time the economy went in the crapper. The point is that Flex's rules and the FOM are up to interpretation and revocation at any point without any pilot input whatsoever.

 

[CL300Pilot]

Thank you DB. I do know about the out of seniority furloughs, but in talking with senior CL captains, they were none to unhappy to see those go for what it is worth. I also realize that the company can take away whenever they want, but the pay issue seems to be coming up more and wanted to know for personal reference. Thank you for answering my quesiton and thanks for your input as well TWA. Good to hear that the meetings have begun.

CL,
I've never heard of it, but I do know that they furloughed out of seniority the last time the economy went in the crapper. The point is that Flex's rules and the FOM are up to interpretation and revocation at any point without any pilot input whatsoever.

 

[SilverSurfer]

Misplaced Gratatude

i think the guy did a good deed. 15-23000 increase is pretty good....the company is showing signs of better things to come....i know its not May yet but its a good start....no matter who you work for someone will always complain....its not a perfect world....and it didnt take money out of our pocket to pay a union to get the new rates...if we had a union it would probally take a few years to get what we are instead of a few months....

Dude you have a total misunderstanding of where you gratitude should be placed. Management did not announce this proposed, and I emphasize proposed, pay increase out of appreciation of your work or value to the company. Your pay increase came because of two very simple things.

First, the hard work that our NJ brothers have put in to establish a industry standard. With out the very important ground work they laid down, none of us would be looking at any significant improvements in our pay, benefits, and QOL at our companies.

Second, the work and risk that the men at FJ have put in to organize your group threw down the gauntlet and told management that we will not settle for your reactive scraps and will have a say in our employment at FJ. Management responded with this promised pay raise for no other reason then hopes of staving off a positive union vote. If you do end up getting a pay increase it will be because of your union organizers and the potential of a successful union organizing drive.

These are the men that you should have gratitude for. Without their work and risk you would have nothing.

On another note, if management's ploy with the pay is successful, the union vote fails or never happens, you will be left in the same powerless, impotent position you enjoy now. Management can change anything they want, anytime they want, including not delivering on this promised May pay raise. As some have said on this thread if you chose the money now over the union you may you may have a little more in your pocket. If you elect for union representation you may not get this raise and you will have a fight in front of you that may take years. But two or three years down the road will you be better off with this short term money now or will you be better off with a contract that will give you control over what you position at FJ will be in the future and industry standard money.

Don,t be short sighted, that's what management is counting on.

 

[Iam3rd]

Amen TWA!! And like DG says. "We are not NJ. We never will be NJ".

If someone likes so much what the pilots at NJ are getting and what he is not getting, and feels like they need to be apart of a union, then go to NJ. Nobody is keeping you here.

And I also agree that it would not matter what flex did for us, the union guys on here would still be coming up with reasons why we need a union.

It is always talked about on here what the union can do for us. And granted there may be some good things that the union could do for us, but I promise you that is not the only thing they are thinking about. Has anyone on here talked about exactly how much money the union would make off of Flex pilots per year. Why don't we break it down.

Lets say under the new pay scale, when you average all the captains and FO's salaries, the average salary is say $90,000. Also lets say we have about 450 pilots. Thats about 40 million in salaries per year. The union would get 1.5% of that amount. That comes to $607,500.00 per year that we as a pilot group would have to give to the union. So the next quesiton you have to ask yourself is do we think $607,500.00 is worth what we would be getting from the union. I think that if Flight Options pilots asked themselves this question, it would be a scream of NO!!!

Just remember that the union is a money making business just like any other business. Granted, they may think that they can help you......and they may can. But thats not the only reason that the union wants into companys. They are there to make money just like everyone else. Regardless if they end up helping or not.

One other thing. Its not often that I respond on here. But I do quite often get on here to read what all is going on in the fractional world. And I have to admit that I have never seen, read, or heard of so much anger, cussing, name calling and disrespect come for union guys when the topics of union versus non union come up. Its like their opinion is the only one that matters and nobody else is allowed to have an opposing opinion. And if you do, just be ready to get a new one ripped by alot of these guys. Granted, there are a few of you unions guys on here that are very polite and respectful of others opinions. And I appreciate that. But a majority of the ones that I have seen on here have not been. Alot of them are to the point of being almost militant about it. And its really sad. So since they seem to be a good representation of what a union is about and the type of people that I will have to work with if we ever end up with a union. Out of fear of me becoming that type person, I would find another job.

But thats just my opinion.....

 

[NETFLIER]

CL,

you knew i was gonna chime in.

Yes, Flexjet DID take away pay, 2001-2003 there was a pay freeze and that is the same thing my friend.

along with the pay freeze, people were fired out of senority, and sales bonuses to the pilots were removed.

Above is the same story i have been telling you for a year now, for some reason you dont wanna listen, and if they did it once, they CAN/WILL do it again if "needed" without a contract.

 

[Iam3rd]

CL,

you knew i was gonna chime in.

Yes, Flexjet DID take away pay, 2001-2003 there was a pay freeze and that is the same thing my friend.

along with the pay freeze, people were fired out of senority, and sales bonuses to the pilots were removed.

Above is the same story i have been telling you for a year now, for some reason you dont wanna listen, and if they did it once, they CAN/WILL do it again if "needed" without a contract.

I am trying to figure out how it is that the pilots at airlines are union also, but yet almost all of them had stuff taken away from them. Pay, Pension, medical cost increases and the list goes on. Unions can not protect you from these things. I know that it does make it more difficult for the mgmt. to take away, but they can still do it.

 

[JokerFuel]

I heard they were serving Kool-Aid at the "Road-Show". Might just want to let this thread go away. I see a lot of wasted effort coming.

 

[Iam3rd]

I heard they were serving Kool-Aid at the "Road-Show". Might just want to let this thread go away. I see a lot of wasted effort coming.

Wasted effort coming out?.........Or maybe some things that make sense?

 

[Iam3rd]

I heard they were serving Kool-Aid at the "Road-Show". Might just want to let this thread go away. I see a lot of wasted effort coming.

But thats just my opinion.....

 

[DirtyBeech]

Let's see. 1.5% of my pay for job security, free health insurance, more bases, better catering, and rest issue resolution. The health insurance bit pays for the union in and of itself.

That wasn't hard now was it?

 

[Iam3rd]

Let's see. 1.5% of my pay for job security, free health insurance, more bases, better catering, and rest issue resolution. The health insurance bit pays for the union in and of itself.

That wasn't hard now was it?

Great. Good for you. I am happy that you have it. But yall paint this false sense of security that one can have with a union. All you have to do is look at the airlines to see that the union can only do so much. Its a proven fact that with a union, you can still be furloughed. You can loose you pension. Your medical can go up. And the list goes on.

 

[learflyer]

Great. Good for you. I am happy that you have it. But yall paint this false sense of security that one can have with a union. All you have to do is look at the airlines to see that the union can only do so much. Its a proven fact that with a union, you can still be furloughed. You can loose you pension. Your medical can go up. And the list goes on.

my goal is to get all pilots to stop confusing loose and lose. It is an epidemic on this board. Do a search on this site, and you'll see i'm not crazy!

looseplay_w("L0248400") (l

s)
adj. loos·er, loos·est 1. Not fastened, restrained, or contained: loose bricks.
2. Not taut, fixed, or rigid: a loose anchor line; a loose chair leg.
3. Free from confinement or imprisonment; unfettered: criminals loose in the neighborhood; dogs that are loose on the streets.
4. Not tight-fitting or tightly fitted: loose shoes.
5. Not bound, bundled, stapled, or gathered together: loose papers.
6. Not compact or dense in arrangement or structure: loose gravel.
7. Lacking a sense of restraint or responsibility; idle: loose talk.
8. Not formal; relaxed: a loose atmosphere at the club.
9. Lacking conventional moral restraint in sexual behavior.
10. Not literal or exact: a loose translation.
11. Characterized by a free movement of fluids in the body: a loose cough; loose bowels.

 

[Ludicris]

Let's see. 1.5% of my pay for job security, free health insurance, more bases, better catering, and rest issue resolution. The health insurance bit pays for the union in and of itself.

That wasn't hard now was it?

Sounds like a pretty good investment to me!

 

[Ref]

Just an honest question because I dont know. Has the union brought free health insurance to FLOPS? Cause everybody seems to think that a union is gonna bring free health care to flex.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

flops is still in contract negotiations, so it depends on the final agreement they hammer out. they might not be trying to get 100% health care. that stuff is all kept confidential until they finish all parts of the contract.

 

[Photoflight]

Sounds like a pretty good investment to me!

Not to mention the fact it is tax deductable.

Also, unless I was told wrong, fo's at NJ only pay 35 bucks a month and captains pay the 1.5%.

Anyone over there care to confirm this?

 

[Bird brain]

Folks, Union Dues Are Tax Deductible!

 

[kab1027]

It seems the "hush" money DG threw out is working for some. But, I don't believe we received any job protection with the hush money. I for one would like legal representation if I'm ever called in for the carpet dance. I'll enjoy the money, but it was #4 on my wish list.

 

[DirtyBeech]

Great. Good for you. I am happy that you have it. But yall paint this false sense of security that one can have with a union. All you have to do is look at the airlines to see that the union can only do so much. Its a proven fact that with a union, you can still be furloughed. You can loose you pension. Your medical can go up. And the list goes on.

I work for Flex. I was highlighting what I would get in return for my 1.5% union dues.

Yes, you can get furloughed, but not out of seniority.

Yes, you can lose your pension. Why is anybody in their right mind still counting on these? Put your pension and social security in one hand and crap in the other. See what fills up faster. Seriously, we make a lot of money. Pay yourself first by saving for retirement.

Yes, your pay can go down, but not unless agreed upon by the union.

Yes, your medical can go up. Perhaps a large company like Bombardier can actually get quality insurance instead of what they force upon us. Check that. Those goofy canucks think they get healthcare for free while being taxed through the nose.


Ref,
We are not FLOPS, nor are we about to be. A strong union with quality leadership can do great things for BOTH the company and it's members. At some point HIG is going to lay the law down on FLOPS management and tell them enough with this bickering, settle the contract, and let's start making money.
We're already making money. Hand over fist in fact. How much money would it cost to open crew bases in places like GSO, ATL, IAD, MDW, and STL? We and our airplanes end up there all the time. How much money does it take to install a simple 10 item rolling menu for crewmembers to order their catering off of? God only knows how much money we're giving scare chef for their sh*t on a shingle lunches. Not to mention how much stock is consumed by the crews who are looking for something palatable to eat. How much money would it take to resolve our rest issues? Some I grant you as we'd actually have to plan ahead and possibly charter instead of the hair on fire screw the crew routine we're running now.
We're not NJ's. We're not FLOPS either. Flex is on the brink of being a helluva great place to work, but it's not going to happen without a united pilot group pushing management for it. I'd rather stay here and make it what it could be instead of starting over at the bottom of NJ's seniority list.
The bottom line is that our true QOL issues were completely ignored with our latest benefits package. How sad. It looks like this round goes to Flex mgt. and the union busting company held on retainer by them. Our pay is now darn near what it needs to be (upper end guys got shafted and at least need COLA) and in my mind is one less thing that would need to be negotiated. Everyone should send in their cards so that the Flex pilot group could at least vote on whether or not we want a union at all. As of right now we don't even have that option.

Sorry for the rant.

 

[gunfyter]

Exactly!!!! If it weren't for the NJA guy's we'd have squat. All we did was inherit the good fortune of anothers merit. Still you cannot cash your check until May. So we don't have anything, but promises.

"...There are those who balk at the fight. They place their confidence in management instead of their fellow workers.

Management feeds on this weakness by handing out PROMISES like candy and quickly renegging if the workers lose the election.

But Management MUST be held Accountable.

As Teamsters we fight for what's right for working families.

-- James P Hoffa --

 

[CA1900]

Also, unless I was told wrong, fo's at NJ only pay 35 bucks a month and captains pay the 1.5%.

Not sure if it's incorrect or old info, but that's not the case now. We all pay 1.56% of our gross pay each check. For me, a second-year guy on the 7/7, that equates to about $35 per biweekly paycheck on the base pay.

 

[JokerFuel]

1.56% of your gross, TAX DEDUCTABLE = Nothing to lose.

 

[bailey3083]

Great. Good for you. I am happy that you have it. But yall paint this false sense of security that one can have with a union. All you have to do is look at the airlines to see that the union can only do so much. Its a proven fact that with a union, you can still be furloughed. You can loose you pension. Your medical can go up. And the list goes on.

The airlines have only given back when they had to and 99% of the time it was to protect pilots from being furloughed. The latest round with United/USAir/NWA had to give in because the airlines were in Bankruptcy court ( Which all of the had Pro Bussiness/Anti Labor). If the unions did not come to the table then Management could have forced the changes ( Hey alot like Flex) on the pilots. Let me tell you those contracts really sucked.
So by working out new contracts the pilots saved hundreds of jobs but had language that requires the airline to re-open negotiations once the airline hits certain economic thresholds and call all pilots back before they hire off the street(Flex does not have to hire you back)
Now lets talk about safety. Say you are landing at CHS and as you cross the threshold a C-5 powers up and you scrape a wing tip. Flex: Danger of being fired. Union Shop: Union protects your job. So yes the Union can provide alot of security that a non union shop can not.

 

[finnjl]

I was not at Flex when they laid folks off. I can not imagine them just randomly laying folks off out of seniority order. There must of been other circumstances.

 

[Pacific]

Hiya TWA. Something I want to point out here, which I think a lot of Flex folks overlook. You agree that you want changes at flex? or that flex needs changes? whatever sounds better... and yes, there is a new committee to look at duty/rest stuff (i didn't know they started yet, so great). But, do you know WHY that committee got started? Because of people on this board (and the BB) who put they neck out and push for changes. It may seem like we are just complaining, but if folks didn't get on the BB and "complain" then nothing will ever get change.d If everybody posts happy "thanks DG!!" messages, why would management ever change a thing? That committee is a direct results of the recent posts pilots have made about rest and duty violations/issues. fifty bucks and my left n...er...just fifty bucks, says that if those pilots did not post on the BB, and instead sent a crew feedback email, or nothing at all, then the committee would not have been put together.

I ask you this then, what have you done to help get some positive changes around here? I post on the BB (with my real name of course), I write to my Chiefs, I fill in asap reports, I email the crew feedback folks, and I talk to the CAB members. What have you done lately?

Ignore me if you want, but "complainers" like me are partially, if not directly, responsible for the positive changes you see at Flex. I'm a good pilot, professional on the clock, an asset to this company, and I am really am working hard for changes, and it frustrates me to no end when I see people label me, and others, as simple complainers. Which group produces more results around here: the "kool-aid" drinkers or the vocal "complainers." Assuming the complainers have a valid point, I'd put my money on them.

If you think flex needs some changes, then do something about instead of just being "average"

nothing personal by the way. just saying get involved, but at the very least dont get in the way.

BINGO !!!

 

[haulingthemail]

Not to mention the fact it is tax deductable.

Also, unless I was told wrong, fo's at NJ only pay 35 bucks a month and captains pay the 1.5%.

Anyone over there care to confirm this?

that's 35buck that I can put to better use than paying someone else to find ways to make my life worse. Teamsters is useless as is ALPA, APA.